Tom Hawkins 350 games - What is his standing in the game?

[SC_Power]

Gun.

A smidge below the legends like Lockett and Dunstall, but a sensational player.

Glad that he's being rested this week to play the record breaking game in front of home fans.

 

[Lunchtime]

Hawkins standing somewhat depends on how you value longevity. Has played the most games out of any tall forward in the top 100 all-time goals list but career stats get massively inflated due to tenure. Per-game averages aren't overly compelling.

For me, he is not in the Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett snr god tier. He's also not in the next tier either with Lloyd, Richardson, Carey.

Jack Riewoldt & Jarryd Roughead are very relevant comparisons. One-club players with long tenure. Multiple flags. Some individual recognition. But never considered the best player on their team or anywhere near it.

Probably makes the Hall of Fame but is likely to be forgotten about post-retirement. I doubt there will ever be a Hawkins stand at Kardinia Park.

Absolute gun forward. Had a fairly slow but steady improvement curve early on, which I think caused people to question him, but he got to the top and has stayed there. Unselfish too, gives away plenty of goals. Passed his peak now, but at it he would be first picked in just about every team, and could easily go one more season if he felt like it.

This thinking about "unselfish, gives away goals". Isn't a forwards job to kick goals? I mean sure you pass the ball to someone in a better position/easier position to kick the goal or bring them into the game but why should a forward be deemed as selfish for kicking goals?

For example, Josh Kennedy had 150 goal assists in his career from 293 games. That's an average of 0.51 goal assists per game and at times certainly on this forum, the lack of goal assists from Kennedy is used against him when trying to rank him with other forwards. I mean, Kennedy was an absolute gun of a forward, two Coleman medals proves that. He was there to kick goals and kick goals he did, his goal average of 2.46 per game, very good for a modern key position forward. Goal Assists is a stat which I think at times is given more credit than it needs to be.

 

[Lunchtime]

Gun.

A smidge below the legends like Lockett and Dunstall, but a sensational player.

Glad that he's being rested this week to play the record breaking game in front of home fans.

Why is a one time Coleman medallist "a smidge below" Lockett and Dunstall?

There have been other modern key position forwards such as Lance Franklin (4 Coleman's), Jack Riewoldt (3 Coleman's) and Josh Kennedy (2 Coleman's) that were all multiple Coleman medallists.

Are you saying Hawkins is ahead of those 3???

 

[STPer18]

Carboot not happy people are putting big Tommy ahead of his boy Jack again?

 

[RUNVS]

Carboot not happy people are putting big Tommy ahead of his boy Jack again?

I did this last week but

Hawkins - 791 goals (353 games)
J.Riewoldt - 787 goals (347 games)
Hall - 746 goals (289 games)
Kennedy - 723 goals (293 games)
N.Riewoldt - 718 goals (336 games)

I feel like an argument could be made for any of those 5 on who was the best and worst of the group.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

This thinking about "unselfish, gives away goals". Isn't a forwards job to kick goals? I mean sure you pass the ball to someone in a better position/easier position to kick the goal or bring them into the game but why should a forward be deemed as selfish for kicking goals?

For example, Josh Kennedy had 150 goal assists in his career from 293 games. That's an average of 0.51 goal assists per game and at times certainly on this forum, the lack of goal assists from Kennedy is used against him when trying to rank him with other forwards. I mean, Kennedy was an absolute gun of a forward, two Coleman medals proves that. He was there to kick goals and kick goals he did, his goal average of 2.46 per game, very good for a modern key position forward. Goal Assists is a stat which I think at times is given more credit than it needs to be.

Scoring goals is the aim of the game, giving a goal to someone in a better position rather than missing it yourself is both smart and unselfish, you get this right?

 

[rye]

I did this last week but

Hawkins - 791 goals (353 games)
J.Riewoldt - 787 goals (347 games)
Hall - 746 goals (289 games)
Kennedy - 723 goals (293 games)
N.Riewoldt - 718 goals (336 games)

I feel like an argument could be made for any of those 5 on who was the best and worst of the group.

n riewoldt not really comparable to the other 4

 

[SC_Power]

Why is a one time Coleman medallist "a smidge below" Lockett and Dunstall?

There have been other modern key position forwards such as Lance Franklin (4 Coleman's), Jack Riewoldt (3 Coleman's) and Josh Kennedy (2 Coleman's) that were all multiple Coleman medallists.

Are you saying Hawkins is ahead of those 3???

I don’t know why you want to question someone’s subjective opinion (which is all this thread is).

 

[FrustratedTiger]

I reckon if he played in the Lockett/Dunstall era where the whole focus of a team was on one forward kicking a bag, he'd be right up there with them

 

[HairyO]

Gun.

A smidge below the legends like Lockett and Dunstall, but a sensational player.

Glad that he's being rested this week to play the record breaking game in front of home fans.

Smidge?

He is a great forward but not near 2 of the 5 greatest forwards of all time.

 

[Lunchtime]

Smidge?

He is a great forward but not near 2 of the 5 greatest forwards of all time.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Lunchtime]

Scoring goals is the aim of the game, giving a goal to someone in a better position rather than missing it yourself is both smart and unselfish, you get this right?

Yeah but again the goal assists stat gets more credit than it deserves, in my opinion.

 

[Lunchtime]

I don’t know why you want to question someone’s subjective opinion (which is all this thread is)

I don’t know why you want to question someone’s subjective opinion (which is all this thread is).

Not a fan of debate?

 

[Lunchtime]

I reckon if he played in the Lockett/Dunstall era where the whole focus of a team was on one forward kicking a bag, he'd be right up there with them.

I reckon if he played in the Lockett/Dunstall era where the whole focus of a team was on one forward kicking a bag, he'd be right up there with them

I agree. The same applies to Kennedy, Franklin and Riewoldt - they'd kick a lot more goals in the Lockett/Dunstall era. Just how many is anyone's guess.

 

[SC_Power]

Smidge?

He is a great forward but not near 2 of the 5 greatest forwards of all time.

You can question the wording of course, but I include longevity when rating players, a sustained level of performance counts for me. I thinks he’s in that 50-70 goal range for 12 seasons straight, with no real drop off in output. Wasn’t the type to kick a massive bag in a single game, maybe that ranks him down in terms of brilliance.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Yeah but again the goal assists stat gets more credit than it deserves, in my opinion.

If it was all he had going for him sure, but he’s also kicked a lot of goals, so, unselfish, smart football, gun.

 

[SC_Power]

Not a fan of debate?

I guess it’s all in the delivery (the debate, not the football)

 

[Lunchtime]

I guess it’s all in the delivery (the debate, not the football)

Please, debate. It's good.

 

[Lunchtime]

If it was all he had going for him sure, but he’s also kicked a lot of goals, so, unselfish, smart football, gun.

Absolutely we all know Tom Hawkins has been a great player.

 

[Lunchtime]

You can question the wording of course, but I include longevity when rating players, a sustained level of performance counts for me. I thinks he’s in that 50-70 goal range for 12 seasons straight, with no real drop off in output. Wasn’t the type to kick a massive bag in a single game, maybe that ranks him down in terms of brilliance.

Most Times Kicking 50+ Goals in Season

Tony Lockett: 14x (18 seasons)
Gordon Coventry: 13x (18 seasons)
Lance Franklin: 13x (18 seasons)
Jason Dunstall: 12x (14 seasons)
Gary Ablett Snr: 11x (14 seasons)
Doug Wade: 11x (15 seasons)
Stephen Kernahan: 10x (12 seasons)
Matthew Lloyd: 10x (15 seasons)
Leigh Matthews: 10 (17 seasons)
Jack Titus: 10x (18 seasons)
Jack Riewoldt: 9x (17 seasons)
Matthew Richardson: 8x (17 seasons)
Tom Hawkins: 8x (18 seasons)

 

[RUNVS]

I reckon if he played in the Lockett/Dunstall era where the whole focus of a team was on one forward kicking a bag, he'd be right up there with them

You throw Hawkins back in time in his peak he would easily kick 100+ goals a season (in the 80's and 90's)

 

[Lunchtime]

You can question the wording of course, but I include longevity when rating players, a sustained level of performance counts for me. I thinks he’s in that 50-70 goal range for 12 seasons straight, with no real drop off in output. Wasn’t the type to kick a massive bag in a single game, maybe that ranks him down in terms of brilliance.

He hasn't kicked 50+ goals 12 seasons straight:

The best run on he got in terms of 50+ goals in consecutive seasons was from 2016 through to 2019, that was 4 seasons in which he kicked 55, 51, 60 and 56.....still a good effort though.

 

[PhatBoy]

Carboot not happy people are putting big Tommy ahead of his boy Jack again?

He’ll accidentally post in the wrong No Opposition forum again soon

 

[The 747]

You throw Hawkins back in time in his peak he would easily kick 100+ goals a season (in the 80's and 90's)

It's a credit to Tommy that he has managed to prosper in a sport that has really moved past his type of player.

 

[SC_Power]

He hasn't kicked 50+ goals 12 seasons straight:

The best run on he got in terms of 50+ goals in consecutive seasons was from 2016 through to 2019, that was 4 seasons in which he kicked 55, 51, 60 and 56.....still a good effort though.

Sorry I went to check. 46+, 12 seasons straight.

I guess that makes your opinion right and my opinion wrong.