Scott Pendlebury - Standing in the game?

[Arr0w]

A list like a top 10, 20, whatever, over a timeframe is subjective, even using stats, or for many judging impact

I don't have Pendlebury in the top 6, beyond that, he is in the discussion with another 6 or so players

Great career, hopefully for him, he finishes on a high

 

[Fadge]

It’s my algorithms Fadgey, you wouldn’t understand.

Reiwoldt kicked more goals then Hawkins and I think Reiwoldt is underrated.
But nobody took more from contested marks than Hawkins and no key fwd as many GA.
No Fwd was as intimidating Rucking in the pocket and I think Hawkins played better in bigger games more often than Kennedy.
I could go on Fadgey but I really couldn’t be arsed.
I’ve put down my view of Pendlebury’s standing in the game I’ve laid out the criteria for how it was assessed.

You continue to create threads where you can spout absolutes and try look for opponents to argue over bullsh.t details.
I’ve got better things to do.

But they're not your algorithms, are they?

Can you please just explain to me how you formed the conclusion that Buddy was #1 ahead of GAJ, given the three metrics you used?

I mean, GAJ was the undisputed best player in the competition for 8 seasons, which coincided with Buddy's peak, and had far more accolades than Buddy.

So I don't see how you can possibly arrive at the conclusion you did, using the metrics you used?

 

[Fadge]

The 25 best AFL players since 2000

Who are the best AFL players to have pulled on the boots since 2000? To mark 25 years since the turn of the century, ESPN has attempted rank the 25 best players of the last 25 years.

www.espn.com.au

Here's the article - it was written by Jake Michaels (who?) and Rohan Connolly - so two 'expert journalists', not three.

The votes for each of the metrics weren't disclosed...

 

[doppleganger]

Like I’ve posted I think he is 9or10 for players in the last 25 years and in my view that’s his standing in the game.
Trying to compare him to a scoreboard player like Martin to prove his status…it’s a nonsense.
Pendlebury isn’t a scoreboard player.

Pendles was a midfielder, and yes it is why I exclude guys like Buddy as it is too hard to compare a mid to a forward. Forwards are feast or famine types (often reliant on midfielders) who can get a player rating above 40 if they have a day out, but then barely register a score the next week.

Buddy clearly best forward or 21st century, and GAJ the best mid.

Dusty was a mid who pushed forward, he wasn't a half forward who pushed into the midfield but regularly kicked 50-60 goals like Steve Johnson.

And in Pendles peak he was a high 7-8 avg score involvements per game player over course of a season. Dusty only bettered that in his two year peak!

If someone was only using disposals to talk up Pendles as being better than Dusty would agree, but it is using ratings which actually favour the players who have scoreboard impact.

Comparing him to a fwd transition player is probably more accurate.
Like a Buckley and I think Buckley was a more talented footballer.
I dont give a sh.t who was the greatest Collingwood player, if it was choosing between the two to win one game of football when both were at their best I’d choose Buckley 7 days a week.
Just like I’d choose Martin 7 days a week and so would 98% of people.

And this is peoples opinion, they just create narrative about peak performance.

Many love the "more talented" whatever that means or "more athletic/powerful" guys that could "tear a game apart" all based on vibe and a few memories.

I don't think Buckley was that talented, he just worked his arse off and was more professional and determined than many players...is that a talent? Didak was talented but didn't have Buckley's drive to be the best.

And then the old pick one game line...

I recall Richo having a monster game in mid 2000s against the Dons, something ridiculous like 9 goal, 20 marks and 30 disposals. That was a one out of the box style game.

You can then try and go players who have had a purple patch ie a month of brilliance, IMHO hard to go past Kouta in his pomp in 2000...he had the blitzkrieg where he had about a month where he avg 35 disposals, 10 marks, 20 CP, 10 clearances and 4 goals per game.

He would win it in the middle, drift forward take marks and kick goals...he did EVERYTHING. But he did his knee and didn't even win Carlton's BnF that year.

So when talking about best ever players Kouta and Richmond ain't considered as they didn't put those games together that often...but give me one of them over Dusty for a single game peak.

GAJ stands out because he did dominate game after game, season after season for almost 10 years.

The entire point of player ratings is to determine impact on games.

Dusty only had 1 season with a player rating avg above 17 (2017 with 20.8). Pendles was above 17 in 2013 (19.94) , 2014, 2016 and two of his best seasons were 2010, 2011 before player ratings were being kept.

Bont, Fyfe or Cripps none of these guys have produced 19.94 avg player rating for a season that Pendles did in 2013

Pendles also had the highest individual player ratings score for a game...his absolute best player rating game was 36.3, nudging Dusty with 35.9...well clear of Bont, Fyfe or Cripps

But yet the myth exists that Pendles best wasn't as good as a guy like Fyfe, Cripps or the Bont?? I think because Pendles wasn't a physically dominant player.

Pendles clearly sits on the rung below GAJ for midfielders of the 21st century

 

[Cdog71]

don't think Buckley was that talented, he just worked his arse off

Probably the best kick of the footy I’ve seen.

 

[Cdog71]

The 25 best AFL players since 2000

Who are the best AFL players to have pulled on the boots since 2000? To mark 25 years since the turn of the century, ESPN has attempted rank the 25 best players of the last 25 years.

www.espn.com.au

Here's the article - it was written by Jake Michaels (who?) and Rohan Connolly - so two 'expert journalists', not three.

The votes for each of the metrics weren't disclosed...

Never said three journalists.

This is the thing Fadgey, there’s a difference between an opinion and a judgement.
You take positions because of your judgements and everything else is wrong.
I laid out an opinion I agree with/ share.
I laid out how it was assessed and discussed.
I like how that was done and I agree with their opinion that players who impact the scoreboard are more valuable so are rated more highly.

I dont give a sh.t if you dont agree with it.
But because you’d rather deal in absolutes and believe your judgements are more important than other peoples opinions you spend hours and hours trying to get over the top of them and discredit the way they came to their view.
Like your haunted by the thought your not right.
Give the social media a spell Fadge.

 

[Rich01]

He’s up there with Brent Harvey.
Champion club man.
Outstanding captain.
Matchwinner in his prime.
Durable and super consistent.

Hopefully Pendles has a good season to see off his career. There’s not much he can do to improve his standing, and a poor year may see him as one of those that went one too many. But he’s obviously drawn to the opportunity for ride one last time with the rest of the Collingwood veterans for coach macrae.

 

[Cdog71]

And this is peoples opinion, they just create narrative about peak performance.

Many love the "more talented" whatever that means or "more athletic/powerful" guys that could "tear a game apart" all based on vibe and a few memories.

It’s not based on vibe or a few moments.
We love a game that has 18 different positions and maybe more roles.
They are athletes at the highest level of their sport.
If you look at individual sports like the Olympics for eg
The legends, greats and record holders are the type of athletes who could reach a higher level.
Ok Aussie Rules is a team game and unlike Cricket say, the role of one player and how good they are at it can benefit another.
A mid passing to a fwd.

I still think scoreboard players are more valuable and should be rated higher.
Like BBall, like soccer.

If you don’t, I got no problem with that.

I’ve always thought Martin based his game on Chapman and the way he played at his peak.

 

[Fadge]

Never said three journalists.

This is the thing Fadgey, there’s a difference between an opinion and a judgement.
You take positions because of your judgements and everything else is wrong.
I laid out an opinion I agree with/ share.
I laid out how it was assessed and discussed.
I like how that was done and I agree with their opinion that players who impact the scoreboard are more valuable so are rated more highly.

I dont give a sh.t if you dont agree with it.
But because you’d rather deal in absolutes and believe your judgements are more important than other peoples opinions you spend hours and hours trying to get over the top of them and discredit the way they came to their view.
Like your haunted by the thought your not right.
Give the social media a spell Fadge.

So you can't answer what should be quite simple questions?

Let me answer it for you...

The guys share the scores in the videos that are linked within the article, and it is clear they have compiled their lists and retrofitted their scores to the list.

The scores they provided for the top 3 were:


The knock on GAJ's longevity was that it 'took him a while to establish himself as a top liner' - but how on earth do you rate Martin equal with GAJ for Longevity?

How do Martin or Franklin get near GAJ for accolades? GAJ won 10 x Player MVP's/Brownlows/Coaches Awards over 5 different seasons, and 6 Club Best and Fairests. Martin had one season where he was the best player in the game (and the only season he won any of the major individual awards). Franklin and Martin won 3 x Club Best and Fairest awards between them. Martin had his Finals Awards so obviously gets extra props for them, and Buddy his Coleman Medals. GAJ and Buddy 8 x All-Australians, Martin 4...

 

[doppleganger]

Probably the best kick of the footy I’ve seen.

Yeah Buckley was a great kick.

Didak had the full range - barrels, bananas, dribblers, distance, weighted passes - I'd align him with a D.Jarman type as best overall kick

Do you know who champion data rates as the best kick in the game since from 2012-2022? Pendles.

Since 2012, Pendlebury has the highest kick rating of any regular midfielder – and 350 games down this has not diminished. At 34, he was still the best kicking midfielder in the AFL in 2022.

Pendles the best kick, best peak, done it longer than the rest.

 

[Cdog71]

Yeah Buckley was a great kick.

Didak had the full range - barrels, bananas, dribblers, distance, weighted passes - I'd align him with a D.Jarman type as best overall kick

Do you know who champion data rates as the best kick in the game since from 2012-2022? Pendles.

Since 2012, Pendlebury has the highest kick rating of any regular midfielder – and 350 games down this has not diminished. At 34, he was still the best kicking midfielder in the AFL in 2022.

Pendles the best kick, best peak, done it longer than the rest.

Yeah ok, completed passes?

Buckley could get it further and more quickly and accurately than anybody I’ve seen.
That’s why I think he’s a better kick.

 

[Cdog71]

So you can't answer what should be quite simple questions?

Let me answer it for you...

The guys share the scores in the videos that are linked within the article, and it is clear they have compiled their lists and retrofitted their scores to the list.

The scores they provided for the top 3 were:
View attachment 2202342

The knock on GAJ's longevity was that it 'took him a while to establish himself as a top liner' - but how on earth do you rate Martin equal with GAJ for Longevity?

How do Martin or Franklin get near GAJ for accolades? GAJ won 10 x Player MVP's/Brownlows/Coaches Awards over 5 different seasons, and 6 Club Best and Fairests. Martin had one season where he was the best player in the game (and the only season he won any of the major individual awards). Franklin and Martin won 3 x Club Best and Fairest awards between them. Martin had his Finals Awards so obviously gets extra props for them, and Buddy his Coleman Medals. GAJ and Buddy 8 x All-Australians, Martin 4...

Maybe you could ask him.
Hope it doesn’t keep you awake at night.

 

[doppleganger]

Yeah ok, completed passes?

No kick rating, kick rating is the difference between a player's actual and expected hit rate.

The dodgy HBs that just chip it sideways for no impact aren't the best kicks according to CD.

The players who go for the difficult kicks, the ones that open the game up and set up attacks are the best kicks.

From 2012-22, Pendles was been the best kick in the AFL.

Buckley could get it further and more quickly and accurately than anybody I’ve seen.
That’s why I think he’s a better kick.

Yep he had the power, but he blazed a fair bit too

 

[Cdog71]

Has done it successfully more often?

From 2012-22, Pendles was been the best kick in the AFL.

Ok

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

No kick rating, kick rating is the difference between a player's actual and expected hit rate.

The dodgy HBs that just chip it sideways for no impact aren't the best kicks according to CD.

The players who go for the difficult kicks, the ones that open the game up and set up attacks are the best kicks.

From 2012-22, Pendles was been the best kick in the AFL.

Yep he had the power, but he blazed a fair bit too

Kick ratings, player ratings, champion data... They've all been proven a complete crock of **** over the years.

If you're basing your arguments on all that it's about as flimsy as a house of cards.

 

[Fadge]

Maybe you could ask him.
Hope it doesn’t keep you awake at night.

But you agree with their ratings, and agree with the metrics used.

Surely there was some critical thinking between when you read the article, and when you shared it on BigFooty and declared 'this is my opinion'?

 

[Worm4]

How do Martin or Franklin get near GAJ for accolades? GAJ won 10 x Player MVP's/Brownlows/Coaches Awards over 5 different seasons, and 6 Club Best and Fairests. Martin had one season where he was the best player in the game (and the only season he won any of the major individual awards). Franklin and Martin won 3 x Club Best and Fairest awards between them. Martin had his Finals Awards so obviously gets extra props for them, and Buddy his Coleman Medals. GAJ and Buddy 8 x All-Australians, Martin 4...

Interesting to see your rationale on this topic - I guess this confirms that Neale is the current best player in the comp, not Daicos or Heeney as you have suggested in other threads

 

[Fadge]

Interesting to see your rationale on this topic - I guess this confirms that Neale is the current best player in the comp, not Daicos or Heeney as you have suggested in other threads

Ah, no.

I'm trying to understand 'their' ratings based on 'their' metrics...

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Ha ha ha. I’ll be honest, I haven’t followed this thread closely but what jumped out at me was someone bestowing a high degree of credence to “a discussion between objective industry professionals”.

Reminds me of the good old days when Falcon thought he’d won any argument by saying “there’s an ARTICLE!!”

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Genuine question, has Pendles ever been considered the best player in the comp across his career?

 

[Fadge]

Genuine question, has Pendles ever been considered the best player in the comp across his career?

Nope, as his peak coincided with the peaks of GAJ and Buddy - the clear best two players of the 21st century.

 

[doppleganger]

Kick ratings, player ratings, champion data... They've all been proven a complete crock of **** over the years.

If you're basing your arguments on all that it's about as flimsy as a house of cards.

No, they are part of Pendles argument.

Pendles has it all

League accolades - Norm Smith, Coaches MVP, 6xAA, 4th most career brownlow votes, over 900 coaches votes (which only started in 2012), most ever disposals, most ever tackles, 2nd most contested possessions, 2nd most goals assists

Club accolades - 5xBnF, 6xRunner-Up, Best player in finals X2, 2 premierships, most games

And then you get into the analytics where people who are paid to analyse impact and establish which players perform the best rated 2013 as a better individual season than anything that Bont, Fyfe, Cripps ever produced.

His best rated game is better than Dusty
He is rated as the best kick in the game

But then you have others who base their opinion on a vibe that they think player X is a more dominant player.

 

[doppleganger]

Genuine question, has Pendles ever been considered the best player in the comp across his career?

Yes.

No.1 in the overall standings of the Official AFL Player Ratings.

R01 '12 - R04 '15 - G.Ablett
R05 '15 - R16 '15 - S.Pendlebury
R17 '15 - R11 '16 - N.Fyfe
R12 '16 - R03 '18 - P.Dangerfield

 

[jannissary]

curious as to how you’d rate his 2021 season. from my (albeit limited) game memory he looked pretty ordinary at times during the season, though that could be broadly reflected on collingwood given their ordinary season

 

[Fadge]

curious as to how you’d rate his 2021 season. from my (albeit limited) game memory he looked pretty ordinary at times during the season, though that could be broadly reflected on collingwood given their ordinary season

Yeah, probably one of his poorer years... only 3rd in his team's best and fairest award.