Unofficial Preview SEASON 2025 - Best 22, Game Plan, Personnel

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RedBloodBlackSwan said:
Logan to my mind is the one that really needs to stand up. Being a link up player while not taking strong contested marks, means he is basically playing like a less agile and less fit winger who happens to be tall. He also hesitated too often for my liking while entering the 50.

I know some on here hate it, but he really does seem to have the mindset of a defender to me. I think defence also plays to his strengths (good field kick, relatively athletic for a tall, reads the play well, etc) and away from his weakness (not a strong contested mark, not a demanding presence, doesn’t crash packs).
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I'm fine with him playing the link up role if that's what he's most suited to. He's got the tools to become a very good player in that role. If that's his role though, I would like to see his defensive intensity improve. Gunston was averaging 2-3 per game at his peak, so that's what McDonald should be aiming for.

If he can improve that part of his game and kick 45+ goals next year, I'd take that.
 
Interesting thoughts on our 3 talls, I think its their lack of impact particularly the 2nd half of the year,
Last 5 Premiers, Tigers,Dees,Cats,Pies & Lions didnt seem
(& I maybe wrong)so tall overall particularly in their front half, so the question for Swans is it talls or their support crew around them or midfield or a combo. For me having 4 big guys inc Grundy seemed to make us a little slow in the FWD 50 & when I say BG he has proven he cant really be a FWD target when not rucking,

I like Logans role - JA & Hayden need to add more to their game for me - Hayden can take pack marks about our only one but outside of that fairly minimal impact -

Personally I think in the overall team should be 3 not the 4 but this is just my thoughts and happy to be corrected
 
SSwans2011 said:
He's definitely a confidence player, but I feel that towards the end of the regular season his defensive efforts really lifted at times, even when the chips were down. He had 6 tackles against the Bulldogs when we got belted and 5 against GWS in the QF despite otherwise struggling. So, I'm not sure I agree that he's disinterested.

If he could be more consistent with that defensive intent, it would benefit our forward line immensely. He averaged 2 tackles per game this year, if he could get that closer to 3, he would become a very useful asset in a forward line that watched as opposition teams rebounded far too easily this year.

Anyway, that generally got me thinking about the forward line. I had a look at the average tackle numbers this year for players who spent most of their time there this year.

Adams: 3.6
Hayward: 2.5
Parker: 2.3
McLean: 2.3
Amartey: 2.0
Wicks: 2.0
Cleary: 1.5 (excluding sub appearances)
McDonald: 1.2
Papley: 1.2

Adams and McLean's stats are inflated a bit due to spending time in the midfield and ruck respectively.

Could probably do with a bit of improvement across the board (excluding Adams) there.

2 per game should be the minimum for whoever gets a crack out of Cleary, Campbell, Dattoli, Wicks, etc.
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2 tackles inside 50 per game puts you in the top few in the league.

Campbell had 3 in his one game where he played mostly forward.
 

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Bloods86 said:
2 tackles inside 50 per game puts you in the top few in the league.

Campbell had 3 in his one game where he played mostly forward.
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Agreed and I hope that's the role Campbell gets next year and that he can do that on a weekly basis.

Lohmann, Bailey, Rayner and Cameron had over 10 between them per game between them this year. I hope next year we can find smalls/mediums that can do the same while being almost as dangerous in front of goal.
 
SSwans2011 said:
Agreed and I hope that's the role Campbell gets next year and that he can do that on a weekly basis.

Lohmann, Bailey, Rayner and Cameron had over 10 between them per game between them this year. I hope next year we can find smalls/mediums that can do the same while being almost as dangerous in front of goal.
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I assume you mean tackles in general, not inside 50. Only 2 players in the league averaged over 2 Ti50 per game this year (min 5 games), and 1 only played 7 games. In Campbell's one game where he played mostly forward, he had 3.

Campbell's last 10 games showed he can tackle, with 33 total including as sub in a couple of games. 6 in the Prelim. He can tackle hard too.
 
Bloods86 said:
I assume you mean tackles in general, not inside 50. Only 2 players in the league averaged over 2 Ti50 per game this year (min 5 games), and 1 only played 7 games. In Campbell's one game where he played mostly forward, he had 3.

Campbell's last 10 games showed he can tackle, with 33 total including as sub in a couple of games. 6 in the Prelim. He can tackle hard too.
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Yeah I'm more interested in the tackling stats in general looking at this year, because it was often the wings/outside the 50 arc where we got stuck. The Grand Final was a perfect example. We just couldn't get the ball inside 50 or lock it in our half of the ground for large passages of the game.

That's where hopefully the likes of Campbell, Cleary, and Dattoli can go to work next year, allowing Hayward, Papley, and one of the talls to play deeper.
 
SSwans2011 said:
Yeah I'm more interested in the tackling stats in general looking at this year, because it was often the wings/outside the 50 arc where we got stuck. The Grand Final was a perfect example. We just couldn't get the ball inside 50 or lock it in our half of the ground for large passages of the game.

That's where hopefully the likes of Campbell, Cleary, and Dattoli can go to work next year, allowing Hayward, Papley, and one of the talls to play deeper.
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I think it's tactics as much as anything else. In 2024, we seemed to take the approach of ceding ground once we turned it over in our front half. There was not much chasing or hassling with the hope of getting the turnover in our D50. I kinda understand that it was an attempt to play to our strength of rebounding with elite kicking but in hindsight, exposed our lack of strong lock down defenders and intercept markers (especially in the GF). Hence why Cox's observations of harder at the contest and stronger in defence makes alot of sense. Keep the enemy out of our backyard.
 
SSwans2011 said:
I'm fine with him playing the link up role if that's what he's most suited to. He's got the tools to become a very good player in that role. If that's his role though, I would like to see his defensive intensity improve. Gunston was averaging 2-3 per game at his peak, so that's what McDonald should be aiming for.

If he can improve that part of his game and kick 45+ goals next year, I'd take that.
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What are you meaning 2-3 per game? Of what? Tackles?

If Logan McDonald kicks 45 goals next season (only 8 more than this year) he more than likely makes the top 10. That's what it was this year. Whatever your 2-3 per game is I'm not sure, but if its tackles per game it's only Treacy, Stengle and McKay that tick the box of 45 goals and 2-3 tackles per game.

Logan has improved in disposals and marks in each of his seasons to date. Nothing suggests it won't do the same in his age 23 season. Where he needs to get better though is marking, and it's contested marking that needs to take a leap.

AFL Key Forward Top 5 (Logan)
Marks Per Game:
Waterman 6.9, McKay 6.8, Hogan 6.5, Daniher 6.4, Treacy 6.1 (Loan McDonald 4.9 - up 0.7 from previous season)

MI50 Per Game:
Hogan 4.1, Waterman 3.2, Georgiades 2.9, Ben King 2.9, McKay 2.7 (Logan McDonald 1.7 up 0.1 from previous season).

CM Per Game:
Hogan 2.6, Sam Darcy 2.2, Curnow 2.1, McKay 2, Charlie Dixon 1.8 (Logan McDonald 0.8 - same as previous season)

MOL Per Game:
Waterman 2.0, Langford 1.8, Daniher 1.7, Georgiades 1.6, McKay 1.6 (Logan McDonald 1.0 - down 0.4 from previous season)
 
SwansLifer said:
What are you meaning 2-3 per game? Of what? Tackles?

If Logan McDonald kicks 45 goals next season (only 8 more than this year) he more than likely makes the top 10. That's what it was this year. Whatever your 2-3 per game is I'm not sure, but if its tackles per game it's only Treacy, Stengle and McKay that tick the box of 45 goals and 2-3 tackles per game.

Logan has improved in disposals and marks in each of his seasons to date. Nothing suggests it won't do the same in his age 23 season. Where he needs to get better though is marking, and it's contested marking that needs to take a leap.

AFL Key Forward Top 5 (Logan)
Marks Per Game:
Waterman 6.9, McKay 6.8, Hogan 6.5, Daniher 6.4, Treacy 6.1 (Loan McDonald 4.9 - up 0.7 from previous season)

MI50 Per Game:
Hogan 4.1, Waterman 3.2, Georgiades 2.9, Ben King 2.9, McKay 2.7 (Logan McDonald 1.7 up 0.1 from previous season).

CM Per Game:
Hogan 2.6, Sam Darcy 2.2, Curnow 2.1, McKay 2, Charlie Dixon 1.8 (Logan McDonald 0.8 - same as previous season)

MOL Per Game:
Waterman 2.0, Langford 1.8, Daniher 1.7, Georgiades 1.6, McKay 1.6 (Logan McDonald 1.0 - down 0.4 from previous season)
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If he's playing the Gunston role, which I'm fine with because it suits his strengths, he needs to be applying defensive pressure.

I agree that he needs to be taking more marks per game, and because contested marking does not appear to be his strength, the best role seems to be effectively that third tall role.

If that's his role and he's not able to apply defensive pressure, I'm not sure he's adding enough to the team, unless he makes improvements to his marking and ability to hit the scoreboard.

His spot is safe because we lack other options, but I still think that's an area that he should be looking to improve.

Again, look at Gunston's stats throughout his peak. He was averaging 2-3 tackles per game across several seasons. No reason McDonald can't and shouldn't aspire to be doing the same, especially as defensive pressure has become more important for forwards in the last decade or so.
 
SSwans2011 said:
If he's playing the Gunston role, which I'm fine with because it suits his strengths, he needs to be applying defensive pressure.

I agree that he needs to be taking more marks per game, and because contested marking does not appear to be his strength, the best role seems to be effectively that third tall role.

If that's his role and he's not able to apply defensive pressure, I'm not sure he's adding enough to the team, unless he makes improvements to his marking and ability to hit the scoreboard.

His spot is safe because we lack other options, but I still think that's an area that he should be looking to improve.

Again, look at Gunston's stats throughout his peak. He was averaging 2-3 tackles per game across several seasons. No reason McDonald can't and shouldn't aspire to be doing the same, especially as defensive pressure has become more important for forwards in the last decade or so.
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I do agree overall with your thoughts on this. I think some of the problem is he has a few different roles in the team and to be honest if he isn't taking a contested mark around the ground then Hayward can be the lead up guy. I know that might not be popular opinion, but it keeps the tall forward in more dangerous positions. I would just use McLean as the backup big guy and have Amartey as BU ruck.

Either way though, I mean realistically the way the game is going its just have the two talls, 1 goes up ground and its only 1 tall forward and a heap of smalls around them. Its working for most that are doing it, but here I am saying this about the clear highest scoring team in the AFL last season. So is there really anything wrong with the Swans attack? Probably not. It's just as the season went on the pressure started to wane a little, and that's probably what you're talking about.

IMO the Swans' early season form was masked quite a bit by the oppo teams making basic errors on their roll up defense. Once the teams got into gear it didn't happen and it made life tough for them.
 
Are we able to get some polls going for pre season? Categories like Defender To Break Out, Most Likely To Debut, When will the Swans name the pre game walk to the SCG "Horses Furlong" etc?
 

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JackHiscoxWasFast said:
Move Logan and Joel back in defence. They have brilliant form in spoiling other forwards trying to mark (ie each other).

Haydos moves slower than a turtle on valium stuck in treacle, dunno what to do with him.
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They have that because our forward set ups are wrong. They require them to compete for the same ball instead of providing alternate options. If they were not all together this would not happen. Spread, spread, spread. That from ex Swans coach & Richmond Premiership legend Tommy Hafey. Always spread your forwards wide.

This idea that forwards have to bunch together in the guts is shite. If they do that they eventually all get caught in the guts if the only kick is a long bomb. Which it will be more often than not with this set up. We were too happy for years to do this & rely on Tippett, Reid & even Bud to mark. But the reality of our forward entries does not read well as for conversions per entry.

We need a far better forward plan. It needs to incorporate taking the forwards wider. Using more if the ground. There are swathes of every ground we just don't use. We tend to want the corridor all the time but then find all our forwards bunched in the same spot. Too one dimensional. Longmire was far too fond of the long bomb. But for a few years he had the players to make that happen. Today's Swans talks are not necessarily the big pack mark players like Reid & Tippett or even LRT. They are clever leading forwards & to make that happen we need to create room

On Infinix X6525 using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
wolftone57 said:
They have that because our forward set ups are wrong. They require them to compete for the same ball instead of providing alternate options. If they were not all together this would not happen. Spread, spread, spread. That from ex Swans coach & Richmond Premiership legend Tommy Hafey. Always spread your forwards wide.

This idea that forwards have to bunch together in the guts is shite. If they do that they eventually all get caught in the guts if the only kick is a long bomb. Which it will be more often than not with this set up. We were too happy for years to do this & rely on Tippett, Reid & even Bud to mark. But the reality of our forward entries does not read well as for conversions per entry.

We need a far better forward plan. It needs to incorporate taking the forwards wider. Using more if the ground. There are swathes of every ground we just don't use. We tend to want the corridor all the time but then find all our forwards bunched in the same spot. Too one dimensional. Longmire was far too fond of the long bomb. But for a few years he had the players to make that happen. Today's Swans talks are not necessarily the big pack mark players like Reid & Tippett or even LRT. They are clever leading forwards & to make that happen we need to create room

On Infinix X6525 using BigFooty.com mobile app
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Beyond that the area in range of the man with the ball is a semi-circle from 20 to 50 metres away. It is huge! Approx 3,300m2 so there is plenty of space. Lead towards the ball, sideways, forward then back but keep moving. The man with the ball MUST kick to advantage and there must be smalls in the vicinity to mop up.
If there's no decent lead kick it sideways. Keep possession.
Truly it isn't rocket science.
 
Right on topic
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VERY LONG POST INCOMING

I watched the Brisbane Lions game from round 1 of the 2021 season today, where we went up to the Gabba and upset the more-fancied Lions by a casual 5 goals. It is the last time we won at the Gabba, and the last time we beat the Lions.

Whilst no two games are the same, if I were Dean Cox I would be looking at this game as the absolute blueprint for how we should play.

There's a few interesting things to note.

It's the first game that Warner, Gulden, Campbell & McDonald are in the 22 (excluding Warner's two games in his debut year, where he wasn't quite ready.) It's the first game for Hickey, who is the best ruckman we'd had - to that point - since the best form of Tippett, and the Mumford/Pyke era before that. And it's the first game with Mills as a starting midfielder. So there's plenty of changes already, before the first ball's even been bounced.

We ran a three tall forward line, but it was Reid, McLean & McDonald. I think when many envisioned a forward line minus-Buddy, that confidence was based on the success of how our forward line looked with this model. McLean is playing the lumbering, stay-at-home forward and backing ruck role (basically same as he currently is) with Reid & McDonald sort of alternating up and down as the more mobile marking targets. And it's working. We kick a score of 125 in this particular game, with the two mobile forwards kicking 5 goals between them and McLean not disgracing himself either with a very handy 3 goal assists. (He selflessly gave up a very easy goal for himself to give McDonald his third in the goal square.)

If this is the sort of structure that Cox (née Horse) is envisioning working for us, then I think it will only do so if two of the three talls are decent marking targets and/or very mobile, agile types that can work their opponents over. I'm just not sure McLean & Amartey combined are that.

To the midfield...

Our core midfield quartet in this game is Mills, Parker, Rowbottom & JPK. In a sign of the time, JPK starts on the bench whilst Rowbottom (at the time, the next big thing - he was only 20 in this game) and Parker play as the main ball-winners. Mills is already nailing his two-way game, doing a decent defensive job on Neale whilst racking up the ball himself. (Neale gets 24 for the game, though he's not getting that clean run at the ball he's used to; Mills has 29 & 2 - there is no question who won this battle.) Rowbottom plays the game on a hyper-extended knee but is one of the best on ground (22 touches, 13 contested, 8 tackles, 11 score involvements). Parker is Parker, and JPK is as good as JPK could get, at least in his 2021 version. Combined with some clearance dominance from Hickey (9 clearances !!), our inside midfielders were extremely solid against Brisbane's.

Which brings me to our outside players. Our two main wingmen are Florent & Warner (both had CBAs while Rowbottom was off with his knee) while Gulden & Blakey also pushed up to rotate into the wing spots. (This was before any of those four had settled into the roles they're currently in.) In this game, Florent & Blakey struggle a little, as it would later be established the wing wasn't their best spots.

But Warner & Gulden are excellent. They look right at home. We're generating so much supply out of the contest that it's just getting fed to Warner, who is breaking lines left, right and centre, and Gulden, who is hitting targets left, right and centre. They're getting less of the ball of course, not playing as much around the ball, but you wouldn't know it. It's the same damaging Warner & Gulden we know today. They've both had just 19 disposals in this game, a far cry from the 25-30 we're used to from them. But they've had a combined 20 score involvements. They don't feel dominant, no more so than Mills or Hickey or Rowbottom or Parker. But they feel like very lethal cogs in a machine that is working in every facet, contest and outside run.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the two following games, against Adelaide & Richmond, when it felt like Warner & Gulden were ushering in a new era for the Swans. And they were, in a way. But they were doing so whilst both averaging only 19.7 disposals each, playing as mostly natural outside players (Warner still has the occasional CBA during this time as Rowbottom is out with his knee.) It did not effect the damage they caused at all - they still managed to average 8.7 & 9 score involvements respectively, and 1.3 goals each. In the latter two areas, that is more than what they averaged this season, when they made the All Australian team as such damaging players.

Yes it is only a three-game sample size, and yes it was four years ago now. But it is evidence that, when we have a midfield that is strong in the contested & clearance areas, we can still get maximum impact from Warner & Gulden even if they aren't in it. It feels like the last few years we've had two separate goals - get the ball in Warner & Gulden's hands as much as possible (correct), and be damaging in the contest & clearances (correct.) But the two goals haven't proven to be symbiotic. If anything, the two goals are obstructing each other. We can't get better in the contest because we have two players whose strengths aren't suited to it taking spots in there; and Warner & Gulden are under more pressure than they need to be because we're trying to use them to WIN the ball, rather than having others FEED them the ball.

I want Heeney, Rowbottom, Mills and (insert contested player) as our main midfield quartet this year. Warner & Gulden (and McInerney) as our main outside runners this year. I want the midfield to be filled with players who are great at midfielder things - winning hard balls, extracting it from the contest, sticking tackles - and the outside roles to be filled by players who are great at outside things - breaking lines, running hard, distributing by foot.

But that is just my take. Others may see it differently and that is fine!
 
caesar88 said:
VERY LONG POST INCOMING

I watched the Brisbane Lions game from round 1 of the 2021 season today, where we went up to the Gabba and upset the more-fancied Lions by a casual 5 goals. It is the last time we won at the Gabba, and the last time we beat the Lions.

Whilst no two games are the same, if I were Dean Cox I would be looking at this game as the absolute blueprint for how we should play.

There's a few interesting things to note.

It's the first game that Warner, Gulden, Campbell & McDonald are in the 22 (excluding Warner's two games in his debut year, where he wasn't quite ready.) It's the first game for Hickey, who is the best ruckman we'd had - to that point - since the best form of Tippett, and the Mumford/Pyke era before that. And it's the first game with Mills as a starting midfielder. So there's plenty of changes already, before the first ball's even been bounced.

We ran a three tall forward line, but it was Reid, McLean & McDonald. I think when many envisioned a forward line minus-Buddy, that confidence was based on the success of how our forward line looked with this model. McLean is playing the lumbering, stay-at-home forward and backing ruck role (basically same as he currently is) with Reid & McDonald sort of alternating up and down as the more mobile marking targets. And it's working. We kick a score of 125 in this particular game, with the two mobile forwards kicking 5 goals between them and McLean not disgracing himself either with a very handy 3 goal assists. (He selflessly gave up a very easy goal for himself to give McDonald his third in the goal square.)

If this is the sort of structure that Cox (née Horse) is envisioning working for us, then I think it will only do so if two of the three talls are decent marking targets and/or very mobile, agile types that can work their opponents over. I'm just not sure McLean & Amartey combined are that.

To the midfield...

Our core midfield quartet in this game is Mills, Parker, Rowbottom & JPK. In a sign of the time, JPK starts on the bench whilst Rowbottom (at the time, the next big thing - he was only 20 in this game) and Parker play as the main ball-winners. Mills is already nailing his two-way game, doing a decent defensive job on Neale whilst racking up the ball himself. (Neale gets 24 for the game, though he's not getting that clean run at the ball he's used to; Mills has 29 & 2 - there is no question who won this battle.) Rowbottom plays the game on a hyper-extended knee but is one of the best on ground (22 touches, 13 contested, 8 tackles, 11 score involvements). Parker is Parker, and JPK is as good as JPK could get, at least in his 2021 version. Combined with some clearance dominance from Hickey (9 clearances !!), our inside midfielders were extremely solid against Brisbane's.

Which brings me to our outside players. Our two main wingmen are Florent & Warner (both had CBAs while Rowbottom was off with his knee) while Gulden & Blakey also pushed up to rotate into the wing spots. (This was before any of those four had settled into the roles they're currently in.) In this game, Florent & Blakey struggle a little, as it would later be established the wing wasn't their best spots.

But Warner & Gulden are excellent. They look right at home. We're generating so much supply out of the contest that it's just getting fed to Warner, who is breaking lines left, right and centre, and Gulden, who is hitting targets left, right and centre. They're getting less of the ball of course, not playing as much around the ball, but you wouldn't know it. It's the same damaging Warner & Gulden we know today. They've both had just 19 disposals in this game, a far cry from the 25-30 we're used to from them. But they've had a combined 20 score involvements. They don't feel dominant, no more so than Mills or Hickey or Rowbottom or Parker. But they feel like very lethal cogs in a machine that is working in every facet, contest and outside run.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the two following games, against Adelaide & Richmond, when it felt like Warner & Gulden were ushering in a new era for the Swans. And they were, in a way. But they were doing so whilst both averaging only 19.7 disposals each, playing as mostly natural outside players (Warner still has the occasional CBA during this time as Rowbottom is out with his knee.) It did not effect the damage they caused at all - they still managed to average 8.7 & 9 score involvements respectively, and 1.3 goals each. In the latter two areas, that is more than what they averaged this season, when they made the All Australian team as such damaging players.

Yes it is only a three-game sample size, and yes it was four years ago now. But it is evidence that, when we have a midfield that is strong in the contested & clearance areas, we can still get maximum impact from Warner & Gulden even if they aren't in it. It feels like the last few years we've had two separate goals - get the ball in Warner & Gulden's hands as much as possible (correct), and be damaging in the contest & clearances (correct.) But the two goals haven't proven to be symbiotic. If anything, the two goals are obstructing each other. We can't get better in the contest because we have two players whose strengths aren't suited to it taking spots in there; and Warner & Gulden are under more pressure than they need to be because we're trying to use them to WIN the ball, rather than having others FEED them the ball.

I want Heeney, Rowbottom, Mills and (insert contested player) as our main midfield quartet this year. Warner & Gulden (and McInerney) as our main outside runners this year. I want the midfield to be filled with players who are great at midfielder things - winning hard balls, extracting it from the contest, sticking tackles - and the outside roles to be filled by players who are great at outside things - breaking lines, running hard, distributing by foot.

But that is just my take. Others may see it differently and that is fine!
Click to expand...
Preach.

Sheldrick that 4th centre bounce mid.

Cleary up forward, operates as a backup two way type when needed.

Gulden and Jmac the wingers, but Warner there as well when he's tired of kicking bags from 50m out at half forward.

Would still go to 2 KPFs though.
 
caesar88 said:
VERY LONG POST INCOMING

I watched the Brisbane Lions game from round 1 of the 2021 season today, where we went up to the Gabba and upset the more-fancied Lions by a casual 5 goals. It is the last time we won at the Gabba, and the last time we beat the Lions.

Whilst no two games are the same, if I were Dean Cox I would be looking at this game as the absolute blueprint for how we should play.

There's a few interesting things to note.

It's the first game that Warner, Gulden, Campbell & McDonald are in the 22 (excluding Warner's two games in his debut year, where he wasn't quite ready.) It's the first game for Hickey, who is the best ruckman we'd had - to that point - since the best form of Tippett, and the Mumford/Pyke era before that. And it's the first game with Mills as a starting midfielder. So there's plenty of changes already, before the first ball's even been bounced.

We ran a three tall forward line, but it was Reid, McLean & McDonald. I think when many envisioned a forward line minus-Buddy, that confidence was based on the success of how our forward line looked with this model. McLean is playing the lumbering, stay-at-home forward and backing ruck role (basically same as he currently is) with Reid & McDonald sort of alternating up and down as the more mobile marking targets. And it's working. We kick a score of 125 in this particular game, with the two mobile forwards kicking 5 goals between them and McLean not disgracing himself either with a very handy 3 goal assists. (He selflessly gave up a very easy goal for himself to give McDonald his third in the goal square.)

If this is the sort of structure that Cox (née Horse) is envisioning working for us, then I think it will only do so if two of the three talls are decent marking targets and/or very mobile, agile types that can work their opponents over. I'm just not sure McLean & Amartey combined are that.

To the midfield...

Our core midfield quartet in this game is Mills, Parker, Rowbottom & JPK. In a sign of the time, JPK starts on the bench whilst Rowbottom (at the time, the next big thing - he was only 20 in this game) and Parker play as the main ball-winners. Mills is already nailing his two-way game, doing a decent defensive job on Neale whilst racking up the ball himself. (Neale gets 24 for the game, though he's not getting that clean run at the ball he's used to; Mills has 29 & 2 - there is no question who won this battle.) Rowbottom plays the game on a hyper-extended knee but is one of the best on ground (22 touches, 13 contested, 8 tackles, 11 score involvements). Parker is Parker, and JPK is as good as JPK could get, at least in his 2021 version. Combined with some clearance dominance from Hickey (9 clearances !!), our inside midfielders were extremely solid against Brisbane's.

Which brings me to our outside players. Our two main wingmen are Florent & Warner (both had CBAs while Rowbottom was off with his knee) while Gulden & Blakey also pushed up to rotate into the wing spots. (This was before any of those four had settled into the roles they're currently in.) In this game, Florent & Blakey struggle a little, as it would later be established the wing wasn't their best spots.

But Warner & Gulden are excellent. They look right at home. We're generating so much supply out of the contest that it's just getting fed to Warner, who is breaking lines left, right and centre, and Gulden, who is hitting targets left, right and centre. They're getting less of the ball of course, not playing as much around the ball, but you wouldn't know it. It's the same damaging Warner & Gulden we know today. They've both had just 19 disposals in this game, a far cry from the 25-30 we're used to from them. But they've had a combined 20 score involvements. They don't feel dominant, no more so than Mills or Hickey or Rowbottom or Parker. But they feel like very lethal cogs in a machine that is working in every facet, contest and outside run.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the two following games, against Adelaide & Richmond, when it felt like Warner & Gulden were ushering in a new era for the Swans. And they were, in a way. But they were doing so whilst both averaging only 19.7 disposals each, playing as mostly natural outside players (Warner still has the occasional CBA during this time as Rowbottom is out with his knee.) It did not effect the damage they caused at all - they still managed to average 8.7 & 9 score involvements respectively, and 1.3 goals each. In the latter two areas, that is more than what they averaged this season, when they made the All Australian team as such damaging players.

Yes it is only a three-game sample size, and yes it was four years ago now. But it is evidence that, when we have a midfield that is strong in the contested & clearance areas, we can still get maximum impact from Warner & Gulden even if they aren't in it. It feels like the last few years we've had two separate goals - get the ball in Warner & Gulden's hands as much as possible (correct), and be damaging in the contest & clearances (correct.) But the two goals haven't proven to be symbiotic. If anything, the two goals are obstructing each other. We can't get better in the contest because we have two players whose strengths aren't suited to it taking spots in there; and Warner & Gulden are under more pressure than they need to be because we're trying to use them to WIN the ball, rather than having others FEED them the ball.

I want Heeney, Rowbottom, Mills and (insert contested player) as our main midfield quartet this year. Warner & Gulden (and McInerney) as our main outside runners this year. I want the midfield to be filled with players who are great at midfielder things - winning hard balls, extracting it from the contest, sticking tackles - and the outside roles to be filled by players who are great at outside things - breaking lines, running hard, distributing by foot.

But that is just my take. Others may see it differently and that is fine!
Click to expand...
I have said exactly this in different words and without the evidence you have tracked down.
Contested midfield:
Mills, Rowbottom, Heeney, Sheldrick
Outside:
Gulden, McInerney, Lloyd/Florent Wing
Warner, Campbell? Forward
Heeney and Warner rotate, as do the three wingers.
18months ago we had a discussion about Warner bursting past instead of in the middle.
Shuffle as it suits.
 
caesar88 said:
VERY LONG POST INCOMING

I watched the Brisbane Lions game from round 1 of the 2021 season today, where we went up to the Gabba and upset the more-fancied Lions by a casual 5 goals. It is the last time we won at the Gabba, and the last time we beat the Lions.

Whilst no two games are the same, if I were Dean Cox I would be looking at this game as the absolute blueprint for how we should play.

There's a few interesting things to note.

It's the first game that Warner, Gulden, Campbell & McDonald are in the 22 (excluding Warner's two games in his debut year, where he wasn't quite ready.) It's the first game for Hickey, who is the best ruckman we'd had - to that point - since the best form of Tippett, and the Mumford/Pyke era before that. And it's the first game with Mills as a starting midfielder. So there's plenty of changes already, before the first ball's even been bounced.

We ran a three tall forward line, but it was Reid, McLean & McDonald. I think when many envisioned a forward line minus-Buddy, that confidence was based on the success of how our forward line looked with this model. McLean is playing the lumbering, stay-at-home forward and backing ruck role (basically same as he currently is) with Reid & McDonald sort of alternating up and down as the more mobile marking targets. And it's working. We kick a score of 125 in this particular game, with the two mobile forwards kicking 5 goals between them and McLean not disgracing himself either with a very handy 3 goal assists. (He selflessly gave up a very easy goal for himself to give McDonald his third in the goal square.)

If this is the sort of structure that Cox (née Horse) is envisioning working for us, then I think it will only do so if two of the three talls are decent marking targets and/or very mobile, agile types that can work their opponents over. I'm just not sure McLean & Amartey combined are that.

To the midfield...

Our core midfield quartet in this game is Mills, Parker, Rowbottom & JPK. In a sign of the time, JPK starts on the bench whilst Rowbottom (at the time, the next big thing - he was only 20 in this game) and Parker play as the main ball-winners. Mills is already nailing his two-way game, doing a decent defensive job on Neale whilst racking up the ball himself. (Neale gets 24 for the game, though he's not getting that clean run at the ball he's used to; Mills has 29 & 2 - there is no question who won this battle.) Rowbottom plays the game on a hyper-extended knee but is one of the best on ground (22 touches, 13 contested, 8 tackles, 11 score involvements). Parker is Parker, and JPK is as good as JPK could get, at least in his 2021 version. Combined with some clearance dominance from Hickey (9 clearances !!), our inside midfielders were extremely solid against Brisbane's.

Which brings me to our outside players. Our two main wingmen are Florent & Warner (both had CBAs while Rowbottom was off with his knee) while Gulden & Blakey also pushed up to rotate into the wing spots. (This was before any of those four had settled into the roles they're currently in.) In this game, Florent & Blakey struggle a little, as it would later be established the wing wasn't their best spots.

But Warner & Gulden are excellent. They look right at home. We're generating so much supply out of the contest that it's just getting fed to Warner, who is breaking lines left, right and centre, and Gulden, who is hitting targets left, right and centre. They're getting less of the ball of course, not playing as much around the ball, but you wouldn't know it. It's the same damaging Warner & Gulden we know today. They've both had just 19 disposals in this game, a far cry from the 25-30 we're used to from them. But they've had a combined 20 score involvements. They don't feel dominant, no more so than Mills or Hickey or Rowbottom or Parker. But they feel like very lethal cogs in a machine that is working in every facet, contest and outside run.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the two following games, against Adelaide & Richmond, when it felt like Warner & Gulden were ushering in a new era for the Swans. And they were, in a way. But they were doing so whilst both averaging only 19.7 disposals each, playing as mostly natural outside players (Warner still has the occasional CBA during this time as Rowbottom is out with his knee.) It did not effect the damage they caused at all - they still managed to average 8.7 & 9 score involvements respectively, and 1.3 goals each. In the latter two areas, that is more than what they averaged this season, when they made the All Australian team as such damaging players.

Yes it is only a three-game sample size, and yes it was four years ago now. But it is evidence that, when we have a midfield that is strong in the contested & clearance areas, we can still get maximum impact from Warner & Gulden even if they aren't in it. It feels like the last few years we've had two separate goals - get the ball in Warner & Gulden's hands as much as possible (correct), and be damaging in the contest & clearances (correct.) But the two goals haven't proven to be symbiotic. If anything, the two goals are obstructing each other. We can't get better in the contest because we have two players whose strengths aren't suited to it taking spots in there; and Warner & Gulden are under more pressure than they need to be because we're trying to use them to WIN the ball, rather than having others FEED them the ball.

I want Heeney, Rowbottom, Mills and (insert contested player) as our main midfield quartet this year. Warner & Gulden (and McInerney) as our main outside runners this year. I want the midfield to be filled with players who are great at midfielder things - winning hard balls, extracting it from the contest, sticking tackles - and the outside roles to be filled by players who are great at outside things - breaking lines, running hard, distributing by foot.

But that is just my take. Others may see it differently and that is fine!
Click to expand...
Brilliant post. Spot on.
I expect Cox to make adjustments similar to this. Don't think he will go all the way, but there needs to be a swing back to what you're referencing, particularly in the midfield.
 
Dattoli won't be available for the early part of the season (approx the first third).

www.sydneyswans.com.au

Injury Update: Jesse Dattoli

See the latest injury update with an update on Sydney Swans small forward Jesse Dattoli, presented by Castlereagh Imaging.
www.sydneyswans.com.au www.sydneyswans.com.au
 
Last edited:
Bloods86 said:
Dattoli won't be available for the early part of the season (approx the first third).

www.sydneyswans.com.au

Injury Update: Jesse Dattoli

See the latest injury update with an update on Sydney Swans small forward Jesse Dattoli, presented by Castlereagh Imaging.
www.sydneyswans.com.au www.sydneyswans.com.au
Click to expand...
Professionalism from all concerned.

“Jesse reported some low-grade back pain earlier this week and scans have revealed he has developed a stress injury in his lower back,”

I assume the players still do their 'wellness' report after each session.
Easy for Jesse to not mention the issue, new kid on the block doesn't want to appear a bit soft.

Immediately sent off for scans and now a treatment plan. :thumbsupv1:
 

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