Unofficial Preview SEASON 2025 - Best 22, Game Plan, Personnel

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Kiama Chris said:
Beyond that the area in range of the man with the ball is a semi-circle from 20 to 50 metres away. It is huge! Approx 3,300m2 so there is plenty of space. Lead towards the ball, sideways, forward then back but keep moving. The man with the ball MUST kick to advantage and there must be smalls in the vicinity to mop up.
If there's no decent lead kick it sideways. Keep possession.
Truly it isn't rocket science.
Click to expand...
Agreed. We don't use the whole forward line often. When we do we are sensational
 
caesar88 said:
VERY LONG POST INCOMING

I watched the Brisbane Lions game from round 1 of the 2021 season today, where we went up to the Gabba and upset the more-fancied Lions by a casual 5 goals. It is the last time we won at the Gabba, and the last time we beat the Lions.

Whilst no two games are the same, if I were Dean Cox I would be looking at this game as the absolute blueprint for how we should play.

There's a few interesting things to note.

It's the first game that Warner, Gulden, Campbell & McDonald are in the 22 (excluding Warner's two games in his debut year, where he wasn't quite ready.) It's the first game for Hickey, who is the best ruckman we'd had - to that point - since the best form of Tippett, and the Mumford/Pyke era before that. And it's the first game with Mills as a starting midfielder. So there's plenty of changes already, before the first ball's even been bounced.

We ran a three tall forward line, but it was Reid, McLean & McDonald. I think when many envisioned a forward line minus-Buddy, that confidence was based on the success of how our forward line looked with this model. McLean is playing the lumbering, stay-at-home forward and backing ruck role (basically same as he currently is) with Reid & McDonald sort of alternating up and down as the more mobile marking targets. And it's working. We kick a score of 125 in this particular game, with the two mobile forwards kicking 5 goals between them and McLean not disgracing himself either with a very handy 3 goal assists. (He selflessly gave up a very easy goal for himself to give McDonald his third in the goal square.)

If this is the sort of structure that Cox (née Horse) is envisioning working for us, then I think it will only do so if two of the three talls are decent marking targets and/or very mobile, agile types that can work their opponents over. I'm just not sure McLean & Amartey combined are that.

To the midfield...

Our core midfield quartet in this game is Mills, Parker, Rowbottom & JPK. In a sign of the time, JPK starts on the bench whilst Rowbottom (at the time, the next big thing - he was only 20 in this game) and Parker play as the main ball-winners. Mills is already nailing his two-way game, doing a decent defensive job on Neale whilst racking up the ball himself. (Neale gets 24 for the game, though he's not getting that clean run at the ball he's used to; Mills has 29 & 2 - there is no question who won this battle.) Rowbottom plays the game on a hyper-extended knee but is one of the best on ground (22 touches, 13 contested, 8 tackles, 11 score involvements). Parker is Parker, and JPK is as good as JPK could get, at least in his 2021 version. Combined with some clearance dominance from Hickey (9 clearances !!), our inside midfielders were extremely solid against Brisbane's.

Which brings me to our outside players. Our two main wingmen are Florent & Warner (both had CBAs while Rowbottom was off with his knee) while Gulden & Blakey also pushed up to rotate into the wing spots. (This was before any of those four had settled into the roles they're currently in.) In this game, Florent & Blakey struggle a little, as it would later be established the wing wasn't their best spots.

But Warner & Gulden are excellent. They look right at home. We're generating so much supply out of the contest that it's just getting fed to Warner, who is breaking lines left, right and centre, and Gulden, who is hitting targets left, right and centre. They're getting less of the ball of course, not playing as much around the ball, but you wouldn't know it. It's the same damaging Warner & Gulden we know today. They've both had just 19 disposals in this game, a far cry from the 25-30 we're used to from them. But they've had a combined 20 score involvements. They don't feel dominant, no more so than Mills or Hickey or Rowbottom or Parker. But they feel like very lethal cogs in a machine that is working in every facet, contest and outside run.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the two following games, against Adelaide & Richmond, when it felt like Warner & Gulden were ushering in a new era for the Swans. And they were, in a way. But they were doing so whilst both averaging only 19.7 disposals each, playing as mostly natural outside players (Warner still has the occasional CBA during this time as Rowbottom is out with his knee.) It did not effect the damage they caused at all - they still managed to average 8.7 & 9 score involvements respectively, and 1.3 goals each. In the latter two areas, that is more than what they averaged this season, when they made the All Australian team as such damaging players.

Yes it is only a three-game sample size, and yes it was four years ago now. But it is evidence that, when we have a midfield that is strong in the contested & clearance areas, we can still get maximum impact from Warner & Gulden even if they aren't in it. It feels like the last few years we've had two separate goals - get the ball in Warner & Gulden's hands as much as possible (correct), and be damaging in the contest & clearances (correct.) But the two goals haven't proven to be symbiotic. If anything, the two goals are obstructing each other. We can't get better in the contest because we have two players whose strengths aren't suited to it taking spots in there; and Warner & Gulden are under more pressure than they need to be because we're trying to use them to WIN the ball, rather than having others FEED them the ball.

I want Heeney, Rowbottom, Mills and (insert contested player) as our main midfield quartet this year. Warner & Gulden (and McInerney) as our main outside runners this year. I want the midfield to be filled with players who are great at midfielder things - winning hard balls, extracting it from the contest, sticking tackles - and the outside roles to be filled by players who are great at outside things - breaking lines, running hard, distributing by foot.

But that is just my take. Others may see it differently and that is fine!
Click to expand...
Leigh Matthews always says; Play players to their strengths.

I think we have been playing a lot of players out of their natural habitat. Heeney, while he is a very dangerous forward, he is even more so in the mids. Mills, is a very good defender, but on his day in the mids is a far better player. Campbell is not a defender, even though he played quite well there. He is a forward/mid. Florent is the huge one for me. You say he is not a mid. But he isn't a back either& the games he played last season in the mids he was bloody dangerous because he has the ability to rove any ruck before the ball drops to ground & he is off. Chad generally is the third Mid, the receiver. Blakey is a great weapon at HB but is there a different role for him? I have an idea. At centre bounces play him on the top of the 50 Arc. He or even Florent. When the ball is bounced the player on the 50 Arc runs into the centre square to receive. If the opposition get a clean break he folds back. what we need to do is cut down opposition clean breaks. That has been an ongoing problem.

Against players like Cripps, Bont, Neale, Merrett, Walsh & Dangerfoeld etc you need to be careful because if you touch them, even if it is not an infringement, the umpires award a free. I remember a match in either '22 or '23 against Carlton where Cripps got 3 frees in a row out of stoppage/cente ball ups for nothing & Walsh got 2 in about 5 minutes. Cripps frees were all in the centre square. This allowed them to pile on a score. You can't stop the umpire but our players must have body or block on these guys. I'd like to see our players with a much more aggressive attitude. Put them on their bums a few time legally. Shake them up. Make them nervous every time they approach the ball. I know the SANFL is not the AFL but the way Glenelg approached the last 3 Premiership was a lesson in controlled aggression, desperation acts & our players can learn some lessons from watching them. Last year the odd of Glenelg winning were about 5/1. But they monstered Norwood, the same way the Lions monstered us. They poured on the pressure & did anything they could to win. It is an attitude. It is about everyone being so desperate to stand on the podium & hug the cup that they will either kill or die for it. It is also about belief. If you believe you are the best & bring the effort of the best then you are the best.

As for the forwards. I think we have a congestion problem & it is due to us not spreading our forwards enough. We bunch our forwards in a congested style, a very onl style. Nobody does this anymore. All forwards in most teams have very defined roles. They don't all compete for the same ball & the idea is they stay out of each other's way. Our problem is, we have the three big guys, then Hayward & sometimes Heeney or Warner all competing for the one mark. Just astounding. We need a new Forwards Coach immediately. McVeigh is not a Forwards Coach, mids or backs yes. We need a specialist forward to come in and create a system that works for the talent in our line up. McDonald is the roaming tall & should play that role all game not being thrust into a pack mark situation all the time where he is competing against McLean & Amartey. Amartey should be the FF, leading out & back. McLean stay at home pack marking option & Amartey only goes if McLean doesn't. That gives them less congestion in packs because it means the defender on the player staying out has to either stay out or risk his player getting a ground ball. If he goes into the pack the ball more than likely comes to ground.

We can get opened up quite easily if we stuff up while running the ball. Mainly because our running backs all run forward of the ball. This creates the chance of an overlap & an opposition surge out of turnover. The major problem we have is poor usage & a lot of this is caused by players wanting to by Hollywood not honest. Basic footy, no more Hollywood bullshit. Get the basics right & you create the Hollywood effect. You don't need overly fancy shit to achieve this.
 

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wolftone57 said:
Leigh Matthews always says; Play players to their strengths.

I think we have been playing a lot of players out of their natural habitat. Heeney, while he is a very dangerous forward, he is even more so in the mids. Mills, is a very good defender, but on his day in the mids is a far better player. Campbell is not a defender, even though he played quite well there. He is a forward/mid. Florent is the huge one for me. You say he is not a mid. But he isn't a back either& the games he played last season in the mids he was bloody dangerous because he has the ability to rove any ruck before the ball drops to ground & he is off. Chad generally is the third Mid, the receiver. Blakey is a great weapon at HB but is there a different role for him? I have an idea. At centre bounces play him on the top of the 50 Arc. He or even Florent. When the ball is bounced the player on the 50 Arc runs into the centre square to receive. If the opposition get a clean break he folds back. what we need to do is cut down opposition clean breaks. That has been an ongoing problem.

Against players like Cripps, Bont, Neale, Merrett, Walsh & Dangerfoeld etc you need to be careful because if you touch them, even if it is not an infringement, the umpires award a free. I remember a match in either '22 or '23 against Carlton where Cripps got 3 frees in a row out of stoppage/cente ball ups for nothing & Walsh got 2 in about 5 minutes. Cripps frees were all in the centre square. This allowed them to pile on a score. You can't stop the umpire but our players must have body or block on these guys. I'd like to see our players with a much more aggressive attitude. Put them on their bums a few time legally. Shake them up. Make them nervous every time they approach the ball. I know the SANFL is not the AFL but the way Glenelg approached the last 3 Premiership was a lesson in controlled aggression, desperation acts & our players can learn some lessons from watching them. Last year the odd of Glenelg winning were about 5/1. But they monstered Norwood, the same way the Lions monstered us. They poured on the pressure & did anything they could to win. It is an attitude. It is about everyone being so desperate to stand on the podium & hug the cup that they will either kill or die for it. It is also about belief. If you believe you are the best & bring the effort of the best then you are the best.

As for the forwards. I think we have a congestion problem & it is due to us not spreading our forwards enough. We bunch our forwards in a congested style, a very onl style. Nobody does this anymore. All forwards in most teams have very defined roles. They don't all compete for the same ball & the idea is they stay out of each other's way. Our problem is, we have the three big guys, then Hayward & sometimes Heeney or Warner all competing for the one mark. Just astounding. We need a new Forwards Coach immediately. McVeigh is not a Forwards Coach, mids or backs yes. We need a specialist forward to come in and create a system that works for the talent in our line up. McDonald is the roaming tall & should play that role all game not being thrust into a pack mark situation all the time where he is competing against McLean & Amartey. Amartey should be the FF, leading out & back. McLean stay at home pack marking option & Amartey only goes if McLean doesn't. That gives them less congestion in packs because it means the defender on the player staying out has to either stay out or risk his player getting a ground ball. If he goes into the pack the ball more than likely comes to ground.

We can get opened up quite easily if we stuff up while running the ball. Mainly because our running backs all run forward of the ball. This creates the chance of an overlap & an opposition surge out of turnover. The major problem we have is poor usage & a lot of this is caused by players wanting to by Hollywood not honest. Basic footy, no more Hollywood bullshit. Get the basics right & you create the Hollywood effect. You don't need overly fancy shit to achieve this.
Click to expand...
Really interesting post with an awful lot to chew on.
1) Mills and Heeney. Agree they should spend the majority of their on field time in the mids but it's useful for them to spend some time in alternative roles ie Mills as a spare in defence if the Oppo get a roll on and Heeney rotating forward so Warner can have a run in the mids and others get a run too. Makes them harder to mark up on too. Just examples.
2) Totally agree about the pressure and legal aggression. Our biggest failing in the second half of the season.
3) Agree we don't use the forward line space well enough. We do have a new forward line coach. I have a slightly different view on how best to use it but we agree on the need.
4) Haven't observed your last point about turning it over. Not so sure about Hollywood so much as trying to move the ball quickly before the oppo defence can man up. When we're clean, as we were before 13-1 it looked fantastic, but when we dropped off it got a lot messier under pressure. I think we can get it back but it requires hard work and quick thinking. Maybe that's what you said. 😄
 
Assuming full fitness (other than Dattoli, poor bugger), I'd like at some point to see the following side take the field:

B: Fox - Melican - Snell
HB: Bice - Blakey - Roberts
C: Gulden - Rowbottom - McInerney
HF: Campbell - McDonald - Warner
F: Papley - McCartin - Hayward
R: Grundy - Heeney - Mills

I/C: Sheldrick - McLean - Florent - Cleary - Jordon

Emer: Amartey - Warner - Lloyd

No chance it actually happens I suspect, but I would love to see the balance of this side. Rampe, Cunningham, and Lloyd are all out and I'm sure that won't be happening any time soon, but imo we've got to be trying to push them out with fresh blood. Those three all are physically not that dynamic anymore either - Cunningham and Lloyd are willowy and Rampe physically isn't what he used to be. They'll be in the side early I'm sure but IMO we need to be pushing them to the bottom of the selected 23 and out ASAP.

The three to take their spots are Fox, Bice, and Snell. Fox just has to be in the team. He's the only bloke who has demonstrated that he is consistently reliable under the most pressure. He's in my team no matter what. I want to see Snell in the side taking Rampe's spot at some stage this year as a third tall and learns in that role. I love the cut of Riley Bice's jib so far. I reckon he's going to be a seniors players sooner rather than later.

Positionally, Melican is the deepest tall defender (more on McCartin later) and Blakey assumes more responsibility as the CHB/interceptor/organiser of the defence. He still isn't near to the influence on games he could have IMO and he'll only get there by giving him more responsibility to set up the defence, taking over Rampe's general type role. Bice and Roberts rebound with Blakey and Florent can be our 7th defender.

Gulden, McInerney, Warner, Jordon are the wingmen. Inside mids primarily are Heeney, Mills, Rowbottom, Sheldrick with additional minutes for Warner, Jordon. Gulden stays largely out of the middle and on the wing where he's best and Warner spends most time on a wing/HFF.

McCartin shifts forward to deep forward. Having him as a properly competitive deep forward gives us some better structure and McCartin hasn't been the most reliable tall defender in the last 12 months, I'm keen to trial it. Logan stays as CHF type with smalls like Papley, Cleary, Campbell, Hayward, and Warner up forward to provide ground ball winning and skill and tackling

McLean is the back-up ruck as he's shown himself to be genuinely good at that. It means Amartey is out of the 23 but I'm OK with Amartey playing, I'm nowhere near as down on him as others are to this point.
 
S120 said:
Assuming full fitness (other than Dattoli, poor bugger), I'd like at some point to see the following side take the field:

B: Fox - Melican - Snell
HB: Bice - Blakey - Roberts
C: Gulden - Rowbottom - McInerney
HF: Campbell - McDonald - Warner
F: Papley - McCartin - Hayward
R: Grundy - Heeney - Mills

I/C: Sheldrick - McLean - Florent - Cleary - Jordon

Emer: Amartey - Warner - Lloyd

No chance it actually happens I suspect, but I would love to see the balance of this side. Rampe, Cunningham, and Lloyd are all out and I'm sure that won't be happening any time soon, but imo we've got to be trying to push them out with fresh blood. Those three all are physically not that dynamic anymore either - Cunningham and Lloyd are willowy and Rampe physically isn't what he used to be. They'll be in the side early I'm sure but IMO we need to be pushing them to the bottom of the selected 23 and out ASAP.

The three to take their spots are Fox, Bice, and Snell. Fox just has to be in the team. He's the only bloke who has demonstrated that he is consistently reliable under the most pressure. He's in my team no matter what. I want to see Snell in the side taking Rampe's spot at some stage this year as a third tall and learns in that role. I love the cut of Riley Bice's jib so far. I reckon he's going to be a seniors players sooner rather than later.

Positionally, Melican is the deepest tall defender (more on McCartin later) and Blakey assumes more responsibility as the CHB/interceptor/organiser of the defence. He still isn't near to the influence on games he could have IMO and he'll only get there by giving him more responsibility to set up the defence, taking over Rampe's general type role. Bice and Roberts rebound with Blakey and Florent can be our 7th defender.

Gulden, McInerney, Warner, Jordon are the wingmen. Inside mids primarily are Heeney, Mills, Rowbottom, Sheldrick with additional minutes for Warner, Jordon. Gulden stays largely out of the middle and on the wing where he's best and Warner spends most time on a wing/HFF.

McCartin shifts forward to deep forward. Having him as a properly competitive deep forward gives us some better structure and McCartin hasn't been the most reliable tall defender in the last 12 months, I'm keen to trial it. Logan stays as CHF type with smalls like Papley, Cleary, Campbell, Hayward, and Warner up forward to provide ground ball winning and skill and tackling

McLean is the back-up ruck as he's shown himself to be genuinely good at that. It means Amartey is out of the 23 but I'm OK with Amartey playing, I'm nowhere near as down on him as others are to this point.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I got to the bit where Cunningham was dropped, labelled willowy and Bice was brought in. Love that Fox is there, and Campbell/Warner to HF, but can't move beyond this.

I'd have both Cunners and Fox down back. With Jmac returning, I think one of Florent or Lloyd miss, probably the latter, but it'd be to boost midfield with Mills, Sheldrick, Cleary (mostly fwd) rather than yet another attacking half back (Bice).
 
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Bloods86 said:
Sorry, I got to the bit where Cunningham was dropped, labelled willowy and Bice was brought in. Love that Fox is there, and Campbell/Warner to HF, but can't move beyond this.
Click to expand...

I get that. I don't love it myself because I respect Cunningham's work ethic and grit. But he, Lloyd, and Rampe have been there for a long time and we've gotta make some changes.
 

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S120 said:
I get that. I don't love it myself because I respect Cunningham's work ethic and grit. But he, Lloyd, and Rampe have been there for a long time and we've gotta make some changes.
Click to expand...
Just edited above. I can get Lloyd and Rampe. But Cunningham has been in good form much more consistently and is clear best in his role. Someone needs to force him out and I don't see that anytime soon, unlike the others. It'd be Paton or Leidler replacing him anyway.
 
bedford said:
B. BICE MELICAN CUNNINGHAM
HB. MILLS McCARTIN ROBERTS
C. GULDEN ROWBOTTOM McINERNEY
HF. FLORENT McDONALD JORDAN
F. PAPLEY AMARTEY WARNER
R. GRUNDY HEENEY SHELDRICK
INT. CLEARY LLOYD HAYWARD MCLEAN Cory WARNER
Emg CAMPBELL FOX LADHAMS
Click to expand...
At least someone understands that for Bice to come in, you drop an attacking half back.

Though not sure it would be Blakey.
 
S120 said:
The three to take their spots are Fox, Bice, and Snell. Fox just has to be in the team. He's the only bloke who has demonstrated that he is consistently reliable under the most pressure. He's in my team no matter what. I want to see Snell in the side taking Rampe's spot at some stage this year as a third tall and learns in that role. I love the cut of Riley Bice's jib so far. I reckon he's going to be a seniors players sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...

It will be interesting to see where they play Fox this year. I feel he is best as a 3rd tall defender. But I think Rampe will still play that role. And maybe they will use Wicks in defence as a quicker player who can scramble when the ball hits the ground.

I did not think Fox was suited to playing as a small defensive forward. But maybe he would be more effective as a 3rd tall forward if he was paired with a few other quicker small pressure forwards. I don't think it worked in the Grand Final starting Fox as the main defensive small forward. I feel they should have played him in defence from the start.
 
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SeanM said:
It will be interesting to see where they play Fox this year. I feel he is best as a 3rd tall defender. But I think Rampe will still play that role. And maybe they will use Wicks in defence as a quicker player who can scramble when the ball hits the ground.

I did not think Fox was suited to playing as a small defensive forward. But maybe he would be more effective as a 3rd tall forward if he was paired with a few other quicker small pressure forwards. I don't think it worked in the Grand Final starting Fox as the main defensive small forward. I feel they should have played him in defence from the start.
Click to expand...
In fact I don't much like the notion of playing two predominantly defensive forwards.
 
Kiama Chris said:
In fact I don't much like the notion of playing two predominantly defensive forwards.
Click to expand...
That was why I was excited about drafting Dattoli and Bowman as small/med forwards. They seemed the style of player that could develop into attacking threats that the opposition would worry about.

But in the short term, I see us playing quicker running players who can apply defensive pressure.
 
SeanM said:
That was why I was excited about drafting Dattoli and Bowman as small/med forwards. They seemed the style of player that could develop into attacking threats that the opposition would worry about.

But in the short term, I see us playing quicker running players who can apply defensive pressure.
Click to expand...
The ideal is players who can do both effectively. I think Bowman probably needs a season in the VFL but had high hopes of Dattoli debuting R0. I would also like to see what Jordon can do with a slight change in emphasis towards attack. He's a good mark and kick.
We can have choice from Papley, Dattoli (once fit), Wicks (maybe), Hayward, WarnerCh, WarnerCo, Heeney, Hanily, Bowman, Florent Jordon and Cleary. Not necessarily all full time. That should be plenty in terms of numbers if we're serious.
With Dattoli out I would run 3 talls and 4 smalls being Papley, Hayward and Cleary full time, Heeney/WarnerCh/another mid rotating as the fourth and a winger, probably Florent or Campbell moving up when some of those are on the bench.
The prospect of McCartin playing forward again is tempting. Mobility, marking and pressure.
 
Having yet another think about the team I'd like to see run out against Hawthorn Rd0. It depends on a number of players reaching the required standard through the preseason to allow things to happen and also involves some role changes. Quite a few of these things have been mentioned elsewhere by myself and others.

DEFENCE 7
Cunningham: no-one is ready to replace him yet and no sign of dropping off.
Edwards: big assumption that he's ready to step up. Think positive. Allows McCartin to move forward.
Rampe: three relatively young blokes in defence need his guidance in possibly his last year.
Roberts: continuing his development.
Melican: continuing his good form.
Blakey: settling and calming down some to act in the intercept role.
Bice: an incisive kick but also a genuine defender.
Missing out: Fox first cab off the rank and in if Bice doesn't cut it. Snell to play key defender in VFL and hopefully overtake Francis. Francis/Hamling break glass. Paton injury cover for Harry. Leidler in VFL.

FORWARDS 7
Tall
McDonald: roaming CHF but more often closer to goal and wider.
McCartin: FF playing mainly out of the square - think Hogan. Good mark but also brings pressure at ground level.
McLean: Has a much better tank to take at least 20% of the ruck load. Relieve the other two but also spend significant time a kick behind like a lot of rucks do but Grundy isn't good at.
Medium/Small
Papley: duh.
Hayward: duh
Jordon: I would like to see him play a more attacking role. I think he can still bring pressure etc but play like Ah Chee.
The fourth player is a rotation of mids and/or wingers: Warner, Heeney, Campbell*, Rowbottom. Warner the biggest chunk.
Missing out: Amartey, some will say let him play instead of McLean, I say try this first. A lot of possible smalls. I would give Jordon first crack but he is the most vulnerable.
I wanted Dattoli in there but that can't happen.

MIDFIELD 9 (incl sub)
Grundy: duh.
Inside
Heeney spends about 65 midfield, 20 forward and 15 bench
Mills spends about 65 midfield 20 as spare in defence and 15 bench
Rowbottom spends about 65 midfield 15 forward and 20 bench
Sheldrick spends about 70 midfield and 30 bench
Warner spends about 35 midfield 50 forward/outside 15 bench
Outside
Gulden: duh
McInerney: duh
Tricky. Lloyd or Campbell. I've gone for Campbell to get more dynamism but there are plenty of arguments either way.
Missing out. The loser of Lloyd and Campbell. Mitchell isn't up to the same standard. Corey Warner though I think he would be more in line as a forward as would Cleary.

To me to key to all this is Edwards achieving the standard and allowing McCartin to go forward. That would be a significant improvement. Using the talls better will be huge even if we can't make that move. I like the idea of another incisive kick in Bice who is also a proper defender. It puts more on Blakey and omits Fox (or Roberts but I would stick with the youth). Adding Mills and Sheldrick into the midfield should make us a lot tougher.
We already have the players in our midfield and forward line who can play like Brisbane did if we organise and feed them properly and have them in the right frame of mind.
 
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