Should Sydney and GWS be allowed academies in strong footballing communities?

[geelong_crazy26]

What is your suggestion to develop talent in NSW and Qld if you remove academies? You just want to gut it and propose no viable alternative.

What if we just changed the name from academies to something like The Sydney Swans Center for kids who can’t play football good and who wanna learn to do other stuff good too.

I am fine for the academies to stay, but simply allow all clubs to have NSW based academies and grow the game in the region, or give it back to the AFL.

simply give everyone fair and equal access, nobody is above the rules for their own special set of treatment.

 

[mcs095]

it is not ridiculous it is quite a big deal for geelong to have the abletts running around, collingwood to have the daicos boys.. it brings alot to the game. Sydney GWS GC will have the same at some point.
you really are exxagerating this advantage of the F/S system.. it gives on average i would say to most clubs if you want to iron it out an ok player every 20 years or so. You are talking like it is pumping it kids to each vic club every year. Most of these kids who do come through as well are late picks.

the past 3 years has been a bit of a freakish outlier with Darcy, Daicos, and now Ashcroft. That is not very common to happen.

Do you just make up what you think you saw in a post?

Where did I say anything was 'ridiculous' or am I exaggerating 'the advantage'. All I have simply said is it is not a fair system - which is absolutely true for the two new clubs in the comp (And any future clubs that may be introduced) - that is a pure statement of fact - at least for another decade at a minimum. That is a simple statement of fact.

And what exactly does Father/Son bring to the game that local boys playing for their local club they grew up barracking for not bring? You can't maintain the argument for one but not the other - which is effectively what the academy system may achieve in some cases.

Just like how the Academies pumping out 'elite levels of talent' is also not very common. But hey - that doesn't suit your argument does it?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

If you are going to argue that GWS should have an academy to 'grow the game in NSW', then you can't argue against the other three northern clubs having exactly the same basis - which is effectively what all 4 northern clubs are doing.

There are not hundreds of AFL quality footballers pumping out of Sydney every year - if there was, why are so few being drafted? (even now). It will take a generation + for NSW to get anywhere near producing a quantity of players that gets anywhere near its population proportion - and that's before the fact such an outcome is always highly unlikely.

I don't care if the AFL wants to run the academy model - but I do care about seeing more footy talent coming out of northern states. The AFL proved previously it is purely incompetent at achieving that, and if you are going to ask clubs to do it and pump a lot of $ into it, then they should get reward for doing so.

But then one needs to start with a view of a betterment of the game as a whole, rather then their club for that to hold. And many struggle with that concept.


You genuinely think there is this lucrative talent pool just sitting there, going to waste? You truly have NFI do you. Go and see just how many people have gone through the northern academies, and how many have gone on to play AFL footy afterwards. But take your 'poor widdle geelong' blinkers off first.

This paints a very interesting picture indeed: Original Clubs for All AFL/VFL Drafted Players - Draftguru . That is if you want to try and understand the problem that led to the academies in the first place - which I don't think you really do.

so let all clubs up into NSW to address the problem. More hands on deck equals more resources to address and solve the problem. It shouldnt be a selfish endeavor to top up the sydney swans, it should be about the overall growth and interest of footy in NSW... so let all clubs up there to build grassroots academies and grow the game. NSW will benefit heaps from it.

again, Sydney should not get special treatment. and last i checked mate sydney do not have membership issues or problems filling the stadiums up, they are better than a handful of vic clubs.

 

[Elixuh]

I am fine for the academies to stay, but simply allow all clubs to have NSW based academies and grow the game in the region, or give it back to the AFL.

simply give everyone fair and equal access, nobody is above the rules for their own special set of treatment.

The reason the clubs are responsible for academies is because the AFL was useless at developing pathways and talent up here.

Is there any evidence to suggest clubs in other states want academies in NSW and Qld? The vic clubs have only ever wanted them gone.

How do you ensure fair access to different areas? How do you ensure clubs will actually invest proper resources to develop talent in other states? If Vic clubs want to pour a crazy amount of resources into development in NSW and Qld it could actually be beneficial for clubs like Sydney and the Lions. More talent and greater draw to bring them home after the Vic clubs develop them for a few years. But unfortunately there is no evidence Vic clubs actually want to do this.

 

[mcs095]

so let all clubs up into NSW to address the problem. More hands on deck equals more resources to address and solve the problem. It shouldnt be a selfish endeavor to top up the sydney swans, it should be about the overall growth and interest of footy in NSW... so let all clubs up there to build grassroots academies and grow the game. NSW will benefit heaps from it.

again, Sydney should not get special treatment. and last i checked mate sydney do not have membership issues or problems filling the stadiums up, they are better than a handful of vic clubs.

What on earth has this got to do with membership levels or crowds? This is about player development. Nice try at seeing X on the page and then responding to B, D and Z don't you think?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Do you just make up what you think you saw in a post?

Where did I say anything was 'ridiculous' or am I exaggerating 'the advantage'. All I have simply said is it is not a fair system - which is absolutely true for the two new clubs in the comp (And any future clubs that may be introduced) - that is a pure statement of fact - at least for another decade at a minimum. That is a simple statement of fact.

Just like how the Academies pumping out 'elite levels of talent' is also not very common. But hey - that doesn't suit your argument does it?

ease up a bit, you get emotional when someone gets the best of you in an argument. It is just a footy site mate.

you constantly bring up the F/S system for some odd reason despite it hardly giving most vic clubs anything more than a player or so every decade or two who for the majority are 3-4th rounders.. so why bother mentioning it? it's almost irrelevant. absolutely nothing like the academies and shouldnt be mentioned in the same discussion.

the academies are pumping out huge amounts of talent... you have as of now off the top of my head- 1. heeney 2. mills 3. Warner 4. Gulden 5. Sam Wicks 6. Hames bell 7. Braeden Campbell 8. Blakey... probably missed a bunch off the top of my head. remove these kids and sydney is a bottom four club.

that is huge... and i assume there are going to be even more in this draft and the next from the first and second rounds.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The reason the clubs are responsible for academies is because the AFL was useless at developing pathways and talent up here.

Is there any evidence to suggest clubs in other states want academies in NSW and Qld? The vic clubs have only ever wanted them gone.

How do you ensure fair access to different areas? How do you ensure clubs will actually invest proper resources to develop talent in other states? If Vic clubs want to pour a crazy amount of resources into development in NSW and Qld it could actually be beneficial for clubs like Sydney and the Lions. More talent and greater draw to bring them home after the Vic clubs develop them for a few years. But unfortunately there is no evidence Vic clubs actually want to do this.

do you have evidence that VIc clubs don't want this??? i imagine a few would be interested as long as they get the exact same concession and system sydney and GWS get. nobody is going to do it for players picks 40+ as your biggest return.

I would be very happy to see this occur and grow the game nationally. I want to see a stronger draft pool.

 

[Elixuh]

do you have evidence that VIc clubs don't want this??? i imagine a few would be interested as long as they get the exact same concession and system sydney and GWS get. nobody is going to do it for players picks 40+ as your biggest return.

I would be very happy to see this occur and grow the game nationally. I want to see a stronger draft pool.

You’re the one making the claims without any evidence.

We have had 10yrs of various vic clubs saying they should be abolished. Not once can I recall vic clubs requesting an academy in NSW or Qld. I suggest it is likely because of the resources they would have to commit make it not worthwhile. Especially when all their infrastructure is in a different state.

 

[Tippett2Goal]

so let all clubs up into NSW to address the problem. More hands on deck equals more resources to address and solve the problem. It shouldnt be a selfish endeavor to top up the sydney swans, it should be about the overall growth and interest of footy in NSW... so let all clubs up there to build grassroots academies and grow the game. NSW will benefit heaps from it.

You know what I love about Big Footy

People who have NFI about their football history suggesting things which have been previously tried and failed

Vic Clubs used to have the NSW Scholarship program where they could invest in NSW talent... (can you guess how many players this produced and what sort of investments the clubs gave it?)

The reason we have the current system is that when it was left to the other clubs it failed and got no traction and provided 0 development.

When the AFL ran it, they half assed it, massively under-resourced it and once again it failed and provided 0 development.

Then they turn it over to the NSW and QLD clubs, who professionally resource it, seek outside sponsors put through huge numbers of kids, the majority of which will never even see AFL reserves let alone the AFL.


If the AFL did its job properly in the first place we wouldn't be here.
If the non NSW/QLD clubs put in even a semblance of effort in development rather than trying to take 1 or 2 good kids out of the Riverina with 0 expenditure of resources, we wouldn't be here.

But here we are...



Edit: also yay this thread again

 

[mcs095]

ease up a bit, you get emotional when someone gets the best of you in an argument. It is just a footy site mate.

you constantly bring up the F/S system for some odd reason despite it hardly giving most vic clubs anything more than a player or so every decade or two who for the majority are 3-4th rounders.. so why bother mentioning it? it's almost irrelevant. absolutely nothing like the academies and shouldnt be mentioned in the same discussion.

the academies are pumping out huge amounts of talent... you have as of now off the top of my head- 1. heeney 2. mills 3. Warner 4. Gulden 5. Sam Wicks 6. Hames bell 7. Braeden Campbell 8. Blakey... probably missed a bunch off the top of my head. remove these kids and sydney is a bottom four club.

that is huge... and i assume there are going to be even more in this draft and the next from the first and second rounds.

Um:
Bell has been delisted (was a Category B Rookie for goodness sake) - bog average at best.
Wicks was a category B rookie - and is bog average at best.
The Warner boys are members of the illustrious Sydney Swans WA academy.

At least know what the **** you are talking about before you start dribbling on.

All I said about the F/S system was it is inherently unfair to some clubs. That is all - and it is a simple fact.

The only player in that academy list that ultimately really wasn't a genuine product of the development pathway was Blakey - very happy to admit the Swans got a very nice deal with him - but noting he did have the option to nominate as a F/S for Brisbane or North as well - so it was not an open/shut case either.

In the decade or so in question (going back to Heeney in 2014) there has been probably somewhere approaching 5,000+ boys go through the academy. For all that effort, the Swans have got 5 very good players - and one of those only because his Father was in Sydney, and well naturally he was going to go into the academy as a result (in Blakey). So take that anomaly out, and they've got 4 top liners out of it - I think it is still something like a grand total of 15 or 16 from the Swans academy in total have ever played a senior game of AFL football (2 or 3 at other clubs) - with several fringe players at best (like Wicks, Bell, Brandon Jack for instance)

It is a different story if the academies were all pumping out multiple 1st and 2nd round picks every year, like your blinkered mind seems to think they are.

We are nowhere near that point at the moment at the Swans, let alone the other three clubs who have similar stories (some good years, but a lot of years with diddly squat return). And won't be for quite a while I suspect. And if the AFL were to take over the academies, I'd suggest we'd be nowhere near it for a generation at least, if ever.

 

[Lach72]

what is apparently bias about F/S rules? each and every club will have their turn at it over the years. It is the only romance and sentiment in the game.. the abletts playing for geelong... the daicos boys at collingwood... it gives alot of meaning to our game.

would you love to see the next generation of Pavlich running around for fremantle or geelong?? without F/S rule the system becomes very mechanical and cold, there is no heart or heritage left.

My objection is there is no limit on where they can be picked. If there are restrictions on other academies, there should be on this too.

so, free them all up

 

[Sentinel]

I understand the need for certain academies to grow the game but its always seemed strange to me that it's been made a responsibility of certain clubs rather than just a league endeavour, and that an off field venture brings on field benefits to the clubs involved. That's not to take away from the good work being done by clubs in northern states either.

If academy access is to remain, which I'm sure it will, my biggest gripe is with the bidding process that allows for a 20% discount. Exactly the same as for NGA and father son bidding, both of which my club has been a beneficiary of in recent years. Access to players is already an advantage, why do they then also need to come served on a silver platter?

 

[Lach72]

it is not ridiculous it is quite a big deal for geelong to have the abletts running around, collingwood to have the daicos boys.. it brings alot to the game. Sydney GWS GC will have the same at some point.
you really are exxagerating this advantage of the F/S system.. it gives on average i would say to most clubs if you want to iron it out an ok player every 20 years or so. You are talking like it is pumping it kids to each vic club every year. Most of these kids who do come through as well are late picks.

the past 3 years has been a bit of a freakish outlier with Darcy, Daicos, and now Ashcroft. That is not very common to happen.

we’ve had one in 28 years. Two if you include Clem Michael who we drafted through normal channels

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You’re the one making the claims without any evidence.

We have had 10yrs of various vic clubs saying they should be abolished. Not once can I recall vic clubs requesting an academy in NSW or Qld. I suggest it is likely because of the resources they would have to commit make it not worthwhile. Especially when all their infrastructure is in a different state.

I didn't claim anything, i said along the lines of letting the clubs have their own academies up there with similar rules, if this is an issue let the AFL take over instead. If they do not want it then so be it, but i have not seen anything suggesting they don't. If anything it appears to be the opposite and the AFL is restricting clubs abilities to utilise the academies they already have... you can only draft kids with picks 40+.

I keep hearing how it failed decades ago... does anyone ever stop and think that support has just simply grown over that period to the point academies in sydney can now produce successful products?? that the AFL would get similar results now?? that the AFL has a huge say in the growth and attraction period of these players, that it is not all about the academies.

I think there is a fair argument that sydney would have achieved the same back then if they were running the show as well given how low the interest in AFL was back then compared to now which is significantly greater today in NSW.

 

[Elixuh]

I didn't claim anything, i said along the lines of letting the clubs have their own academies up there with similar rules, if this is an issue let the AFL take over instead. If they do not want it then so be it, but i have not seen anything suggesting they don't. If anything it appears to be the opposite and the AFL is restricting clubs abilities to utilise the academies they already have... you can only draft kids with picks 40+.

I keep hearing how it failed decades ago... does anyone ever stop and think that support has just simply grown over that period to the point academies in sydney can now produce successful products?? that the AFL would get similar results now?? that the AFL has a huge say in the growth and attraction period of these players, that it is not all about the academies.

I think there is a fair argument that sydney would have achieved the same back then if they were running the show as well given how low the interest in AFL was back then compared to now which is significantly greater today in NSW.

It’s going to be hard to have a meaningful discussion when you won’t take on board anything anyone is telling you and you have no insight into academies and zones historically.

Don’t worry Geelong won’t be 0-2 for long.

 

[mcs095]

I understand the need for certain academies to grow the game but its always seemed strange to me that it's been made a responsibility of certain clubs rather than just a league endeavour, and that an off field venture brings on field benefits to the clubs involved. That's not to take away from the good work being done by clubs in northern states either.

If academy access is to remain, which I'm sure it will, my biggest gripe is with the bidding process that allows for a 20% discount. Exactly the same as for NGA and father son bidding, both of which my club has been a beneficiary of in recent years. Access to players is already an advantage, why do they then also need to come served on a silver platter?

I think the 20% discount was probably originally primarily a product of recognising the resources clubs put in to the academies to make them happen. But agree it really isn't necessary, especially when clubs are so adept at managing the points system/implications now as such.

 

[sherb]

For a bit of BF background on the subject, here is a recent 2800+ post thread.

Opinion - Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

Wish our Academy was actually half as good as Vic Bigfooty fans make out. As far as I can tell 2021 Academy draftees = Nil 2022 Academy draftees = Nil Not exactly a footy factory. You'd be happy StKilda get Mackenzie for two picks in the 40's though. Makes sense.

www.bigfooty.com

 

[citizen-erased]

At some point i think they should align the rules to the NGA's and keep them the same, whatever that may be
Either no limits or limits on when bids can be matched.

But the NGA's should also be less of a crock of shit that some of them are
Saints access to MacKenzie was as dumb as they come.

Should be about fostering through pathways not otherwise there for players wanting to come into AFL.

 

[mcs095]

At some point i think they should align the rules to the NGA's and keep them the same, whatever that may be
Either no limits or limits on when bids can be matched.

But the NGA's should also be less of a crock of s**t that some of them are
Saints access to MacKenzie was as dumb as they come.

Should be about fostering through pathways not otherwise there for players wanting to come into AFL.

The NGAs should never have been called 'academies' in their current form - because they really aren't the same thing.

They could be if done properly - and then aligning the two would make a lot of sense. But in the current form they aren't - and the tightening we saw was because of the rort they could have become (Where effectively they were being used - not necessarily deliberately but due to good fortune) to hoover up players already in development pathways so clubs could get access to those players, rather then actually being about developing talent.

 

[Back One Out]

Should Sydney and GWS be allowed academies in strong footballing communities?

It all depends what our motive is.


1) Increasing the TV rights money...

Do we want the NSW clubs to occupy a near-permanent place in the top 8, thereby attracting the eyeballs of the notoriously fickle Sydney market? Or more importantly, attracting one million neutral viewers from Vic, SA and WA, couch potatoes who probably would change channel if it was Geelong or Collingwood belting the Swans or Giants by 15 goals on a Friday night?

If the answer is "yes", then Sydney and GWS must be allowed academies in strong footballing communities


2) Running a football competition that is equally fair for all 18 clubs

It seems like heresy in this day and age for the AFL copy the ONE thing which is great about American sports leagues like the NFL and NBA. They've copied everything else, it seems. They don't have an original idea in their heads. Except when it comes to devising cute schemes to give certain favoured teams systemic advantages over everyone else. The AFL are the world's best when it comes to that sort of thing and making side deals with clubs.

If the answer is "yes", we want equality, then the academies should be scrapped immediately. The AFL should fund and administer their own talent pathways & academies for elite athletes from NSW, Qld, NT and Tasmania. This would be best achieved in conjunction with the state leagues and existing local clubs. The Swans are not "growing the game" with their academy. They're handpicking a few kids and giving them intensive specialist coaching. Really, it should be done on a much wider scale and available for all 18 clubs.

I'd be all for Sydney & GWS having their own protected academies if the AFL decided to scrap the National Draft and went to the NRL system where clubs signed whichever talented juniors they wanted.

 

[mcs095]

It all depends what our motive is.


1) Increasing the TV rights money...

Do we want the NSW clubs to occupy a near-permanent place in the top 8, thereby attracting the eyeballs of the notoriously fickle Sydney market? Or more importantly, attracting one million neutral viewers from Vic, SA and WA, couch potatoes who probably would change channel if it was Geelong or Collingwood belting the Swans or Giants by 15 goals on a Friday night?

If the answer is "yes", then Sydney and GWS must be allowed academies in strong footballing communities


2) Running a football competition that is equally fair for all 18 clubs

It seems like heresy in this day and age for the AFL copy the ONE thing which is great about American sports leagues like the NFL and NBA. They've copied everything else, it seems. They don't have an original idea in their heads. Except when it comes to devising cute schemes to give certain favoured teams systemic advantages over everyone else.

If the answer is "yes", then no... The academies should be scrapped immediately. The AFL should fund and administer their own talent pathways & academies for elite athletes from NSW, Qld, NT and Tasmania. This would be best achieved in conjunction with the state leagues and existing local clubs. The Swans are not "growing the game" with their academy. They handpicking a few kids and giving them intensive specialist coaching. It should be done on a much wider scale and available for all 18 clubs.

I don't think 5000+ kids over a decade equals 'intensive specialist coaching' for a handful of players. No doubt they put more effort into the better players coming through, but equally all northern clubs are doing a lot to grow the game in their region as well. For every player that goes onto an AFL list, there will be 100+ that don't, but help to build the talent for local competitions, interest in the game etc etc.

Its simplistic to suggest there are zero spillover effects.

 

[Saab NLAW]

If you are going to argue that GWS should have an academy to 'grow the game in NSW', then you can't argue against the other three northern clubs having exactly the same basis - which is effectively what all 4 northern clubs are doing.

There are not hundreds of AFL quality footballers pumping out of Sydney every year - if there was, why are so few being drafted? (even now). It will take a generation + for NSW to get anywhere near producing a quantity of players that gets anywhere near its population proportion - and that's before the fact such an outcome is always highly unlikely.

I don't care if the AFL wants to run the academy model - but I do care about seeing more footy talent coming out of northern states. The AFL proved previously it is purely incompetent at achieving that, and if you are going to ask clubs to do it and pump a lot of $ into it, then they should get reward for doing so.

But then one needs to start with a view of a betterment of the game as a whole, rather then their club for that to hold. And many struggle with that concept.


You genuinely think there is this lucrative talent pool just sitting there, going to waste? You truly have NFI do you. Go and see just how many people have gone through the northern academies, and how many have gone on to play AFL footy afterwards. But take your 'poor widdle geelong' blinkers off first.

This paints a very interesting picture indeed: Original Clubs for All AFL/VFL Drafted Players - Draftguru . That is if you want to try and understand the problem that led to the academies in the first place - which I don't think you really do.

GWS and GCS should definitely have an academy, an argument could be made for Brisbane too, no issues with any of those clubs getting an academy

Sydney though is an absolute rort of the system and your argument that you just care about bringing new talent to the game is pretty transparent.

I understand why the AFL gives Sydney an academy, they want to artificially keep them up to increase viewer ratings in NSW to make more money. It's pretty obvious, this growing the game argument is just the excuse given to the public.

 

[mcs095]

GWS and GCS should definitely have an academy, an argument could be made for Brisbane too, no issues with any of those clubs getting an academy

Sydney though is an absolute rort of the system and your argument that you just care about bringing new talent to the game is pretty transparent.

I understand why the AFL gives Sydney an academy, they want to artificially keep them up to increase viewer ratings in NSW to make more money. It's pretty obvious, this growing the game argument is just the excuse given to the public.

Do tell - what exactly is the rort compared to those other three clubs? What precisely are the Swans doing to rort the system that is different?

 

[Tippett2Goal]

I think there is a fair argument that sydney would have achieved the same back then if they were running the show as well given how low the interest in AFL was back then compared to now which is significantly greater today in NSW.

Well that's nice for you.

I grew up in a Northern Riverina region (think Wagga/Griffith area), in the late 90's early 2000's, and still keep in contact with a number of people back home. So I can tell you first/second hand of the difference in resourcing compared to when the NSW Scholarship System vs AFL development vs GWS academy.

As a quick Anecdote

I played against guys from Ungarie (you know home of the Danihers), and even played against some Danihers, and can tell you first hand that in the 90's/early 2000's, star young footy players from this area were more likely to get an NRL development contracts than get noticed for an AFL development program.

If they did get noticed, development consisted of 2 training sessions for the rams (rep side). Last I heard (pre-covid) GWS development program was something like 20 Sessions, but someone more up to date can give the current figure.

The sheer difference of scale in investment is what has driven current improvements in NSW development pathways, and your "fair argument" is just you speaking nonsense.

 

[Elixuh]

GWS and GCS should definitely have an academy, an argument could be made for Brisbane too, no issues with any of those clubs getting an academy

Sydney though is an absolute rort of the system and your argument that you just care about bringing new talent to the game is pretty transparent.

I understand why the AFL gives Sydney an academy, they want to artificially keep them up to increase viewer ratings in NSW to make more money. It's pretty obvious, this growing the game argument is just the excuse given to the public.

Lol so two clubs in the same city. One club deserves one and for the other it’s a rort.