Rules Sirengate 2 - Freo v North

[maskmcgee]

The AFL love implementing what they do in the US, so...
In the NBA and NHL when reviewing buzzer-beating events they look at where the ball/puck was when the clock hit 0:00.
If reviewed the same way this would show the correct decision was made.

I like how you have no idea how a timer works. When it goes to 0:00 it's really 0:00:99. There's still a whole second left when it shows 0:00.

 

[Chadwiko]

 

[Donakebab]

Stop sharing that image. We have known for DECADES that the broadcast clock is an estimation and is not accurate with the timekeepers clock.

 

[milhouse1]

It's a bit strange, from the above clip it is clear the ball hasn't crossed the line when the siren goes, but looking at the vision shown on the footy show (about 0:45 sec in the clip below) it certainly looks like the ball has crossed the line. Seems to be some inconsistency with syncing up the audio

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

AFL releases ARC vision, ticks off late call in Roos' shock win

The League says the decision not to award the Dockers a late free kick was correct

www.afl.com.au

It's official - Umpires got it right.

Time for everyone to move on now.

 

[BF Tiger]

Just more amateur hour stuff from the AFL...

Clock goes to 0:00 and ball is clearly in play.
Siren sounds and ball is clearly OOB.

I think the umpires made the wrong decision based on the evidence available to them (no clock, just siren).

 

[StFly]

Actually, and bizarrely, it needs to land out of bounds. Rule 10.5:

END OF QUARTER
(a) The end of a quarter occurs when any field Umpire or emergency Umpire first hears the siren sounded by the Timekeepers to signal the end of a quarter. The field Umpire shall acknowledge the siren and bring play to an end by blowing a whistle and holding both arms above their head.
(b) For the avoidance of doubt, if immediately before hearing the siren to end a quarter, a field Umpire is of the opinion that a Player should be awarded a Free Kick or a Mark, the field Umpire shall signal that play has come to an end and then award the Free Kick or Mark to the Player. A Free Kick will not be awarded where the football has been kicked and, after the field Umpire has heard the siren, lands Out of Bounds On the Full.

Why it needs to land out of bounds is beyond me, as you point out the free is when it crosses the line. The ball can land in bounds and still have gone out of bounds between coming off the boot and landing.

But this is not an out of bounds call, it's an separate infringement by a player, that being insufficient intent. See example in my previous post - surely you can't coathanger a player after the siren, especially if the ball remains live. What's the difference here?



I was there and I couldn't hear a ******* thing! Don't the umpires have an earpiece that the siren is heard through?

You're a little wrong in statement, it is an OOB, boundary is the first signal in vision and it is a call of OOB, so it is an out of bounds call first and foremost. As an aside, get that boundary a raise they did a brilliant job in that moment comparatively to every single umpire in vision outside of goal umpire.

The disconnect is 10.5.a, as field umpire does signal: 8 seconds after boundaries signal. We have no idea if Emergency signalled or was half into a pie and coke.

Going by that 10.5, play was still live in those 8 seconds before field signal unless emergency did anything. So you then look at b since 2 signals, 8 seconds between them. Section 18 for awarding a free kick if so inclined to do so, section 18 has references to 16.4, 16.5, 16.6 for application, however that field umpire made no mention or motion to pay a free kick, so AFL per letter back umpire in since sole discretion and they made a judgement good job all. Right?

If you read those sections and you just go by signal, that's insufficient attempt, that signal to end is 8 seconds after OOB, engage section 18 and award that free since it's not an OOF. So there's a disconnect from original application and what you see and what perception says happened and the commentary around it being factually incorrect in the immediate "it doesn't matter" being uttered when it actually does matter you foolish fools.

As an aside, I get the commentary is about siren, but that's wrong focus, go by what umpires signal and when since 10.5 specifically mentions them and that timekeeper has no autonomy to end a quarter, they're just an inherent signal themselves for reference.

I'm just thankful this shows that Freo were the problem after all.

Just more amateur hour stuff from the AFL...

Clock goes to 0:00 and ball is clearly in play.
Siren sounds and ball is clearly OOB.

I think the umpires made the wrong decision based on the evidence available to them (no clock, just siren).

If you go by what the field umpire stated to players, yep, they misapplied the law, it's understandable though as OOB v OOF qualifier.

 

[Rob]

The goal would have counted

Rubbish. That would mean that as soon as the siren goes, players can do whatever they like and no infringement will be paid against them even though the ball remains live. Let's say a player is having a shot after the siren, you can therefore climb the post, build a human pyramid, or clothesline the guy trying to touch it on the line. That can't be how the laws work, the umpire still has jurisdiction and infringements can surely still occur.

In saying that, I think the common sense interpretation is that if the siren goes before the ball crosses the line then that's end of game. But that raises a lot of inconsistencies in the rules because the ball is still live. If that ball went through for a point then the point would have counted, so you can't say the game is over as soon as the siren goes. That ball is still live until it goes out of bounds, so there needs to be a call that the ball has gone out as part of the game. So given that, why can't an insufficient intent decision be made? At the very least, the laws need to be clear about the situation.

And i'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but the AFL footage has the siren going well before the footy show footage. Why?

 

[Hayes4PM]

The AFL has reviewed itself and found itself to be a very handsome, magnanimous and all around fault free organisation. Truly a privilege to be in their presence

With that said, this is delicious seeing Sirengate happen again to the same club.

 

[Seadog]

The TV time isn't the exact time the keepers us though is it?

I get your point, you can keep hammering out the macro until you find core blame. I ultimately think the prudent thing to do is clarify the rule

Makes you wonder why when occasionally the clock doesn't restart again with the play there is a huge uproar because the game went x amount of seconds longer than it was supposed too.
Anyway there is audio of the siren clearly sounding before the ball went over the line.

 

[Seadog]

I like how you have no idea how a timer works. When it goes to 0:00 it's really 0:00:99. There's still a whole second left when it shows 0:00.

Maybe in lala land.

 

[RHLK]

Scoreboard.

 

[Oxirane]

Maybe they will need to put lights around the boundary that are in sync with the siren to be able to judge better. Although it would only make sense if there was a specific review process that could use it.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Is that umpire saying "Pay it. Pay it" and then "siren"???

Definitely some ambiguity in the rules.

Under 10.5 (b) a free kick should have been paid as before the siren sounded "an umpire was of the opinion that a player should be awarded a free kick". Strange that 10.5(b) deliberately states the specifics for what needs to happen for an out on the full free kick after the siren (18.10.2 (a)) but not the lack of sufficient intent free kick (18.10.2 (b)).

"For the avoidance of doubt" AFL Should probably tidy that up.

 

[kickazz]

The AFL love implementing what they do in the US, so...
In the NBA and NHL when reviewing buzzer-beating events they look at where the ball/puck was when the clock hit 0:00.
If reviewed the same way this would show the correct decision was made.

That clock is not the game clock though

 

[kickazz]

That can't be how the rule works in all cases though, as the ball is still live. Imagine someone kicking for goal before the siren, the siren goes and the ball is dribbling towards goal. Surely an attacker can't just tackle down a defender without the ball to stop him from getting to it and cutting it off. Likewise, remember Rampe climbing the goalpost after the siren, which should have been a free kick? So clearly the siren by itself doesn't prevent free kicks from being paid.

That's right and the rules actually explicitly state how free kicks work after the siren.

 

[Outtatym]

It's funny- the umpiring was poxxy all night which effected the result(for both sides) but all we hear about is last call.
To me its deliberate before the siren goes- but Freo didn't deserve to win that game regardless

 

[Chadwiko]

Is that umpire saying "Pay it. Pay it" and then "siren"???

Yes but the context is he's saying "pay it" IF/WHEN it goes out, not right at that moment.

 

[RandB]

Why it needs to land out of bounds is beyond me, as you point out the free is when it crosses the line. The ball can land in bounds and still have gone out of bounds between coming off the boot and landing.

Purely in context of OOF I can only summise it is a legacy rule relating to old suburban grounds with zero grandstand protection. A strong wind gale can blow the footy sideways, theoretically goes over the line mid air, comes back into play. Farcical but just spitballing here.

 

[Rob]

That's right and the rules actually explicitly state how free kicks work after the siren.

Which rule? All I could find is where it deals with out of bounds on the full.

 

[kickazz]

Which rule? All I could find is where it deals with out of bounds on the full.

16.6 Free Kick After Play Has Ended

...

16.6.2 After the Kick
After a field Umpire has signalled that play has come to an end, any field Umpire may award
a Free Kick to any Player after a Player has Kicked for Goal but before the field Umpire has
signalled ‘All Clear’ or ‘Touched All Clear’. In such cases, the following shall apply:
(a) if the Player awarded the Free Kick is playing for the Attacking Team and a Goal is
Kicked, the field Umpire shall signal ‘All Clear’ and a Goal shall be recorded;
(b) if the Player awarded the Free Kick is playing for the Attacking Team and a Goal is
not scored:
(i) if the Free Kick occurs within the Playing Surface then that Player will take
the Free Kick where the Free Kick was awarded or at the location of the
Kick for Goal, whichever is the greater penalty against the Defending Team;
(ii) if the Free Kick occurs outside the Playing Surface then that Player
will take the Free Kick at the closest point to the Goal Line, Behind Line
or Boundary Line where the infringement occurred or at the location
of the Kick for Goal, whichever is the greater penalty against the Defending Team

 

[FireKrakouer]

Would be hilariously unsurprising if the AFL simply edited the audio synchronisation in their clip to prove themselves right and just hoped no one noticed.

 

[kickazz]

Surprised the rule doesn't cover the case of a behind being scored and the player having the option of the behind or free kick.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Yes but the context is he's saying "pay it" IF/WHEN it goes out, not right at that moment.

True, but also raises the question of which umpire is in charge? Why are they telling each other to pay free kicks?

I also reckon that if they paid the free kick on the night the AFL would justify why it was the correct call. The AFL are never wrong.

 

[Tony Ongarello]

This may seem a really strange concept. Some posters have referred to the fact that North players do not celebrate until the ball is already out of bounds, seriously how quick a reaction time are you expecting. The really telling fact is that although the umpires had indicated that they intended to pay the free, there is no blowing of whistle or physical indication that they HAD paid a free. WHY, because they must have heard the siren. There can be no other explanation because if they didn’t hear it they would have blown the whistle and physically indicated what the free was for. The reason the siren cannot easily be heard on the TV footage is that the crowd noise was actually LOUDER than the siren, am I making sense? Believe what you will, Trump was robbed of an election too I guess.