So... a guy got beheaded in front of my office today

[Gus Poyet]

The IRA never made you think twice about being Catholic?

Yeah, didn't think so -

The I.R.A weren't all Catholic.

Just thought you should know that so you didn't look silly.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

A 20 minute armed response time in simply unacceptable in such a circumstance. Given London is at a relatively high risk of terrorism and has a huge population I would have thought they would have had multiple mobile armed response teams operating 24/7 from different parts of the city as well as a high readiness team ready to deploy from HQ. Clearly police will come under alot of scrutiny for this.

Can't see how they been asking for years for more officers to be trained and allowing all police cars to be carry arms in a lock box that authorised cops have access too. The poli's shut them down every time.

 

[Malifice]

The IRA campaign was not really a religious one.

If you were living in downtown Belfast in the 80's and a carload of guys pulled up next to you and asked you 'Catholic or Protestant?" you have a 50/50 chance of escaping without being kneecapped.

To say religion didn't play a massive part in the Troubles is to deny reality.

They never said they were killing on behalf of God or the Pope. And they killed and maimed plenty of Catholics.

Plenty of innocent Muslims died in 9/11 also. Plenty more die in the regular insurgency attacks in Iraq as well, killed by other Muslims.

Most fundamentalist movements worldwide are actually forms of nationalism in some kind of religious guise -such as the IRA, Zionist fundamentalism or the patriotic Christian right in the US.

You're suggesting that Islamic terrorism is not a form of nationalism?

The main goals of Ql-Queda are the removal of foreign powers from the Middle East, and the return of sovereignty to those nations via the overthrowing of foreign appointed dictators!

Even this guy yesterday was mainly on about 'what happens daily in his country'.

How is that any different to the IRA (removal of the British occupation of Ireland, and the unification of Ireland into a single Catholic State).

Its complex with fundamental Islam as it is both a Religion and a form of fundamentalist State.

Which makes it all the more dangerous and hard to tackle.

 

[Gus Poyet]

The IRA? They were Catholic.

Religion played a massive part in that one as well.

They were mortaring Heathrow Airport, blowing up busses in London, murdering soldiers and detonating nail bombs downtown while todays Islamic militants were still babies.

To be fair to the 'Muslim extremists' in Britain, they have a long way to go to catch up to the Irish Catholics too.

The Irish Republican Movement was not a Catholic Movement. Wolfe Tone says so.

 

[Malifice]

The Irish Republican Movement was not a Catholic Movement. Wolfe Tone says so.

You keep believing that religion wasn't a factor all you want.

Speak to the Irish and they'll tell you a very different story.

 

[radiojake]

The fact you guys can disassociate a nationalist movement like the IRA that resorted to terrorism so easily from the religion of many of its members, yet will conveniently attribute the religion of these other guys who were otherwise acting (crazily) in a nationalist discourse by attacking a British soldier as a symbol of the system attacking their ancestral homes is quite astounding

 

[Jetwa5h]

Except of course when civilian infrastructure is deliberately targeted with civilians inside. To begin with.

Ok (deep breath) I will say it again when civilians are in the vicinity strikes are aborted, however the Iraqui's were genius at this and from what I see, as are most other gorilla type insurgency armies. They will set up shop in a school, shopping complex, block of flats etc and begin operations from this point deliberately using their own people as shields. After a while the local population start to avoid the place when this happens they move but they move to a place that was ounce abandoned but is now being used as a replacement school, shopping complex, block of flats etc, so believing that it is abandoned the western armies will strike at this target and on occasion have been caught out with civilian casualties. So these armies are mighty good at getting their own people killed to fuel their own propaganda machine to a gullible western media.How often do you here about the mining of pathways leading to newly opened schools to local children when I was last over their I knew of at least 25 female children killed this way because they were trying to get themselves an education. Please don't paint them as all innocent when in all reality no one really is. (I'm not saying we don't try and manipulate the media also just we don't do it by setting up our people)

 

[cancat]

If you were living in downtown Belfast in the 80's and a carload of guys pulled up next to you and asked you 'Catholic or Protestant?" you have a 50/50 chance of escaping without being kneecapped.

There is a difference between the goals of the IRA and thuggery.

Plenty of innocent Muslims died in 9/11 also. Plenty more die in the regular insurgency attacks in Iraq as well, killed by other Muslims.

You're suggesting that Islamic terrorism is not a form of nationalism?

The main goals of Ql-Queda are the removal of foreign powers from the Middle East, and the return of sovereignty to those nations via the overthrowing of foreign appointed dictators!

There is a nationalistic element to Islamic terrorism but unlike other forms of fundamentalism there is also a wider goal. Muslim fundamentalists oppose some basic values that we in the West, mostly through rejection of religious dogma, hold dear.

Even this guy yesterday was mainly on about 'what happens daily in his country'.

'his country'? - he is British born. Bet he has never even been to Afghanistan. If he had maybe some other radical form of Islam might have chopped him up.

 

[medusala]

The fact you guys can disassociate a nationalist movement like the IRA that resorted to terrorism so easily from the religion of many of its members, yet will conveniently attribute the religion of these other guys who were otherwise acting in a nationalist discourse by attacking a British soldier as a symbol of the system attacking their ancestral homes is quite astounding

Nigeria. Who is attacking them?

 

[Gus Poyet]

You keep believing that religion wasn't a factor all you want.

Speak to the Irish and they'll tell you a very different story.

Erhm I lived in Derry until I was a teen.

Plenty of Church of Ireland Protestants didn't like the NI Orange Protestants at all.

 

[MaddAdam]

It genuinely surprises me it took this long.

Imagine if random (or mildly connected) dudes just started walking around major cities firing automatic weapons.

I always thought this was the biggest threat going.

According to Jason Burke there was a big debate within those circles about which way to go and whatisname the Syrian was all for the leaderless do it yourself model, very much proposing the kind of stuff you suggest.

But the leadership decided to go all in with Zarqawi in Iraq and a more formal fight - thinking they had lured the American beast to the land of jihad where it would be finally defeated.

It was others like Awlaki who picked up on the DIY thing. They seem to be more successful.

 

[Gus Poyet]

The fact you guys can disassociate a nationalist movement like the IRA that resorted to terrorism so easily from the religion of many of its members, yet will conveniently attribute the religion of these other guys who were otherwise acting (crazily) in a nationalist discourse by attacking a British soldier as a symbol of the system attacking their ancestral homes is quite astounding

The IRA motto was “Tiocfaidh ar La” - Our time will come. The Republican battle cry was "Éirinn go brách" - Ireland Forever.

There's no referring to God or a Prophet, unlike the Muslim extremists.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Nigeria. Who is attacking them?

The Muslims aren't they?

 

[Malifice]

Nigeria. Who is attacking them?

For once I agree with you Meds. This guy was London born and raised. Was as cockney as the next bloke down here in SE18.

Birth name Michael. Converted to Islam a few years back and lost his shit.

What the **** is the British government/ Army doing to oppress Muslims in Nigeria anyways?

Unless by 'my country' he was referring to the UK.

Weird.

 

[Malifice]

Erhm I lived in Derry until I was a teen.

Catholic by any chance?

 

[Bremner20]

The IRA never made you think twice about being Catholic?

Yeah, didn't think so -

No, going to a marist brothers school has though ,probably the reason i now describe myself as a moderate ,luckily i never had to board at the school and only had to endure the odd caning as a day student.As for the IRA my grandparents who i never knew immigrated from Belfast and judging by my mums opinion of the English when she was alive i'm guessing they were supporters ,but it was never about religion moreso independance they just all happened to be catholic.

 

[LouisCK]

The other 8 Major religions being?

Well I think you mean six, cause eight minus two (Islam and Christianity) is six.

The eight are:

Judaism, Christianity and Islam (the Abrahamic ones that are basically identical with a few differences)

Confucianism

Taoism

Shinto

Buddhism

Hindu

 

[LouisCK]

I'm pretty sure society does denounce Bike Gangs and their members.

Maybe you missed all of that.

That's a bow so long that you could cross the Indian ocean with it.

 

[Malifice]

The IRA motto was “Tiocfaidh ar La” - Our time will come. The Republican battle cry was "Éirinn go brách" - Ireland Forever.There's no referring to God or a Prophet,

You mean the Irish republicans who fought for a unification of the North into the Republic?

Their Republics Constitution contains this pearler:

The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion

And until 1970 said this:

The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

Nope, no reference to God or a Prophet there.

Don't tell me that the Troubles were not divided along religious lines as much as political ones. Pro Union were predominantly Protestant (and indeed the Queen is the Head of that Church, as well as the Head of that Union).

A united (and Catholic) 32 counties of Ireland was pretty central to the deal there.

 

[LouisCK]

The IRA campaign was not really a religious one. They never said they were killing on behalf of God or the Pope. And they killed and maimed plenty of Catholics.

This situation isn't that religious either.

Its firstly economic: tonnes of bored young men looking for meaning in life.

Secondly its collateral damage from a war. We kill millions and millions of innocent civilians in muslim countries for two decades, whilst the average muslim can't strike back militarily.... and this happens. Its unfortunate, but lets not forget muslims didn't invent suicide bombs (that was the hindu's) and they certainly aren't as good at terrorism as the IRA (who are catholics) or even as downright scary as those Japanese communist terrorists (they were.... well yeah jap commies) who shot up Tel Aviv.

 

[Malifice]

it was never about religion moreso independance they just all happened to be catholic.

Odd co-incidence hey?

 

[LouisCK]

The IRA motto was “Tiocfaidh ar La” - Our time will come. The Republican battle cry was "Éirinn go brách" - Ireland Forever.

There's no referring to God or a Prophet, unlike the Muslim extremists.

Cause these blokes don't really have a country, thanks to European borders and Sheikdoms. Its like Africa, a complete mish mash of cultures and languages where one group seems to have the monetary power and the backing of the Capitalists (The Sunni, who also commit most of the terror attacks and finance them), and another group being squashed even though they actually live on all the oil (the Shi'a). Throw a wide variety of ethnicities into the mix (Pashto, Dari, Hazaragi, Druze, Maronite, Palestinian, Arab, Persian whatever) just to confuse it even further, and we get the current situation of having most of Persia and Arabia being effectively stateless because their governments no longer represent the majority of their people (because they're not really THEIR people - or THEIR land).

 

[LouisCK]

Erhm I lived in Derry until I was a teen.

Plenty of Church of Ireland Protestants didn't like the NI Orange Protestants at all.

Yeah my family are Church of Ireland Anglicans.

Majority of the beef was between Presbyterians and Catholics. The Anglicans just generally sat around telling the best jokes and writing the best books.

 

[Pie eyed]

Wrong mate.

Muhammad actually existed. He has a tomb, it can be visited. There are historical documents rleating to his life, relationships and feats. It's historically known that he unified the middle east under an abrahamic religion.

There's scarce to zero evidence that Jesus ever existed.

What's interesting about the last line in your post is just how wrong it is. Islam and Christianity are more alike than any other two of the eight major religions in the world.

Cheers for that.
I think you knew what I was getting at.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Yeah my family are Church of Ireland Anglicans.

Majority of the beef was between Presbyterians and Catholics. The Anglicans just generally sat around telling the best jokes and writing the best books.

If people knew the actual history of Ireland(not the lazy Catholic vs Portestant line) the Church of Ireland Protestants were also treated poorly at times by the Scots Presbyterians because many sided with the native Catholic population because they themselves were overall native Irish.