Play Nice Society, Religion & Politics Thread

[Tedeski]

I've seen jokes on here every week or two that infer that homosexuality is bad. "we were bent over" etc etc. The point of this turns of phrase is that its demeaning to be that, its less than a "normal man". Not saying these are the same people who beat up and yell abuse at queer people on the weekends but it is part of the same continuum and that stuff does still happen despite the significant changes our society is going through in regards to homosexuality.

Saying that you don't hear or see homophobia at the footy is way less meaningful than you think. It just says you don't hear and see it. But every time I go to the footy I hear people calling players ******s and ****ters pretty regularly. Both what you say and I say can be true, but we probably have pretty different understanding and relationships to homophobia.

I'll use the term "we got spanked" from now on.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Ok let's be courageous and enlightened and give them the right to marry.....even knowing they can plug away forever and never procreate and just get dirt on the tip. It's cool because they're in oxytocin addicted like us all...er ah in love. BUT I better not find out this is all an ulterior plan so I can be compelled to 'kiss the bride'. Won't be happy Jan. Omg I hope no one gets bent over on the float.....

Ok now I've for that out of my system.....of course homophobia is dead

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Because you'd have no experience being subjected to homophobia of any kind. How on earth can you claim that something you'd never have to experience is no longer an issue.

1. Homophobia is not something you are subjected to. Bigotry is. Homophobia is what is experienced by he/she who fears homosexuals.
2. What I said specifically about homophobia is that it was no longer prevalent. And that participation in a parade won't do anything to cure society of the few remaining bigots.
3. My dot point 4. was not specifically about homophobia but a more general point about a general irritation about being lectured at when I really just want to go to watch the footy with my kids.
4. My experience as an "old, white, heterosexual" is very relevant because I am old enough to know that in the 80s if a bloke announced in the locker room that he was gay there would have been fairly widespread avoidance of him and probably less widespread ridicule. If he did it today the reaction would be more like "and I'm wearing blue jocks, so ****ing what?"
5. I'm not sure what "you" want from "us". "Us" being those who are no longer "homophobic" or engage in "bigotry". If I witness it, I will call it out. When my kid asks me why his mate has 2 dads, I'll tell him that some kids have 2 dads. It sometimes seems that the more "we" try to normalise "your" sexuality, which is surely the objective, "you" seem to want to add another letter to the acronym and make "us" all bastards again.
6. To put it very bluntly, I don't, really don't, give a shit where you put your pecker. If you like a cold beer and a laugh, I'll meet you at the pub. If you don't, that's ok, but we're not likely to be lifelong buddies.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

I've seen jokes on here every week or two that infer that homosexuality is bad. "we were bent over" etc etc. The point of this turns of phrase is that its demeaning to be that, its less than a "normal man". Not saying these are the same people who beat up and yell abuse at queer people on the weekends but it is part of the same continuum and that stuff does still happen despite the significant changes our society is going through in regards to homosexuality.

Saying that you don't hear or see homophobia at the footy is way less meaningful than you think. It just says you don't hear and see it. But every time I go to the footy I hear people calling players ******s and ****ters pretty regularly. Both what you say and I say can be true, but we probably have pretty different understanding and relationships to homophobia.

I don't think those "jokes" are about homosexuality. I think they are worse than that. I think they are about rape. And I personally wish expressions like that and "torn a new one" which I hear frequently on radio from some of the more "progressive" types weren't used.

 

[Deccas]

I'll use the term "we got spanked" from now on.

BDSM culture will be complaining about being appropriated soon im sure

 

[mtooler]

What about those who can't because they have to face homophobia in the sport they love?

Not entirely convinced homophobia is a diagnosed disorder at present, but see the term used alot, gender dysmorphia is a diagnosed condition though, dont see it mentioned much though. Im sure sufferers of homophobia would appreciate society's support as they deal with their condition, no different to any other condition evidently.

 

[mtooler]

So many points here. But let me keep it shortish....I deleted so much and I really want to keep this forum to football because this does not need to be politicized as well as everything else even though that is what is desired by so many so this is the last on this particular topic.

In a nutshell, taking your absolutely hypothetical point about someone in the sport facing homophobia, why do you think a football club entering a float in what has become a social event divorced from its original purpose (I know people at the original mardi gras by the way) will have any positive effect on them?

Our club cannot even police its own players to have them avoid being around the sale of coke (putting it politely). The AFL employs diversity officers that assault people on the field. Its morals in head office descend to the level of openly power imbalanced affairs.

If you want these institutions to be the moral and cultural guardians is it too much to ask they clean up their own bedroom and house a bit?

In any event let us return to this hypothetical powerless actor devoid of being able to "do something" in the face of homophobia in this sport.

This actor of your has the following on his side against homophobia;

The AFL
All clubs at every level
Popular culture
The MSM and huge portions of both left and right media - essentially 99% of ALL media
Hollywood
"A" lister's everywhere and all the rest of the alphabet too boot
The zeitgeist
Musicians form indy acts to international powerhouses
Something like 40 years of solid affirmative action
The vast majority of people around him in the sport - players, spectators, supporters and rule makers
Laws in the game
The whole legal system
Actual (draconian) worded laws
Parliament
The whole of the education system from kindy to post graduate with internal rules and systems that defy logic and the rule of (actual) law
That disgusting human rights tribunal
The UN for crying out loud

Probably missed a few

And against this stands, in your hypothetical, some moron either too dumb, or totally without self worth, making a gay joke or saying, SAYING, something that hurts their feelings

Yes. I can see how the Swans putting a float in the local street parade and all the virtue that signals is going to tip the balance.

Just be a football club. I reckon your hypothetical guy has a bit of power on his side he can harness apart from this ridiculous float.

Love this post so much!

 

[mtooler]

Think about it guys, if we put a float in the Mardi Gras is it more likely that people in the LGBTI community will invest their very high disposable income in the Swans or an NRL side?

We can keep saying that a footy club is just about playing footy but that is nonsense - a footy club is about getting enough income to compete with other clubs so we can play footy on a level playing field (or a non-level playing field in our favour).

Having a float in the Mardi Gras fits with the clubs stance on inclusiveness but is also a very sound business decision.

The world has gone completely bonkers if parading around at a gay mardi gras is a financial strategy. Boy oh boy wowee.....

 

[mtooler]

Homophobia occuring in sports and in the crowds at the football is a bit beyond just a hypothetical point. It happens quite regularly. It's pretty easy for you to say "oh I just want to watch football without worrying about anything else ", but there are groups of people who can't do that through no fault of their own.

I dont believe that people cant go to grounds to be honest, any antisocial behaviour and theyd be media lynch mobs a plenty.

 

[mtooler]

Why is that "Lol"? And why did you only respond to the first phrase in a more detailed sentence?

Do you have any sources that show that further lecturing, themed rounds, virtue signalling by players and confected human rights commission prosecutions are going to stop the few remaining bigots from conducting themselves atrociously?

I agree with you. Im not seeing it at all and to be honest the feral attitudes have been perpetuated the other direction from what ive seen. The ridiculous expression which is actually a made up accusatory slur of "homophobia" or "islamaphobic" have become widespread used in society when they dont exist, they arent real words! Gender dysmorphic is though.

 

[mtooler]

Because you'd have no experience being subjected to homophobia of any kind. How on earth can you claim that something you'd never have to experience is no longer an issue.

Easily, hes a member of society of which ibtolerance exists in. One person simply doesnt have the right to disavow anothers right to an opinion because they dont like it. Youre kidding arent you?

 

[Kummerspeck]

Easily, hes a member of society of which ibtolerance exists in. One person simply doesnt have the right to disavow anothers right to an opinion because they dont like it. Youre kidding arent you?

I'm not disavowing it because I don't like it, I'm disavowing it because it's ridiculous that someone who has never and will never experience the effects of homophobia claiming that it isn't an issue anymore is ridiculous.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

I'm not disavowing it because I don't like it, I'm disavowing it because it's ridiculous that someone who has never and will never experience the effects of homophobia claiming that it isn't an issue anymore is ridiculous.

3 times now I've pointed out that what you are quoting is different to what I actually said. Now I'm not sure why you are so determined to misrepresent what I said. Now only you can answer that but can I please ask that you quote me accurately.

 

[Kummerspeck]

3 times now I've pointed out that what you are quoting is different to what I actually said.

You've stated a number of times in this thread that homophobia or actions based off that are non-existent, or hasn't been common in football for twenty years apart from the occasional idiot. Again, based on someone who would never be the target of those actions, they're ridiculous statements.

I played with two guys on one team who had left their previous clubs after being made to feel unwelcome at their previous clubs from 'jokes'. Our club plays in a game where numerous people, including a sibling of one of our players, discussed how they were pushed away from football because of their sexuality and what the club's engagement in the LGBTQI community meant.

The fact that gay players aren't being abused or ridiculed as a matter of routine doesn't mean that homophobia is non-existent as you claimed.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

You've stated a number of times in this thread that homophobia or actions based off that are non-existent, or hasn't been common in football for twenty years apart from the occasional idiot. Again, based on someone who would never be the target of those actions, they're ridiculous statements.

I played with two guys on one team who had left their previous clubs after being made to feel unwelcome at their previous clubs from 'jokes'. Our club plays in a game where numerous people, including a sibling of one of our players, discussed how they were pushed away from football because of their sexuality and what the club's engagement in the LGBTQI community meant.

The fact that gay players aren't being abused or ridiculed as a matter of routine doesn't mean that homophobia is non-existent as you claimed.

I didn't make that claim. I said it wasn't prevalent.

And I'll add something else. It is entirely part of the culture of sporting clubs that EVERY player will at some point be challenged by jokes made either directly about them or even passively about them. And it is entirely a part of football culture that when such ribbing reaches a point of going too far, members will pull other members up for it.

Now no club is perfect. I sat out of football for the latter part of a season because a club I played at had such a sexist culture (although I wasn't directly affected by it) that I felt I couldn't continue there. The following year I found another club that had a culture more to my liking. Deal with it. We all have to. Part of achieving equality that I think some "minority groups" don't seem to get is that equality means you're nothing particularly special. Life is uncomfortable.

 

[Kummerspeck]

I didn't make that claim. I said it wasn't prevalent.

You're really getting into semantics. You all but said it.

something largely no longer existent.

And I'll add something else. It is entirely part of the culture of sporting clubs that EVERY player will at some point be challenged by jokes made either directly about them or even passively about them.

And homophobic jokes are okay to a point? I don't get why you'd say this.

Now no club is perfect. I sat out of football for the latter part of a season because a club I played at had such a sexist culture (although I wasn't directly affected by it) that I felt I couldn't continue there. The following year I found another club that had a culture more to my liking. Deal with it. We all have to. Part of achieving equality that I think some "minority groups" don't seem to get is that equality means you're nothing particularly special. Life is uncomfortable.

So... After I bring up two players who were the target of homophobic abuse or "ribbing" as you labelled it, and made the decision to leave their club, you reply by telling a story about when you took the same action and using that as a base to mention that "minorities" think they're special.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

It's quite interesting how selective you are about what you respond to. I didn't "all but say it". I didn't say it. "Prevalent" has a meaning. It's not "semantics" to point out it is different to what you quoted.

If your mates were the target of bigotry, I'm glad they left the place that targeted them. That club will no doubt be the loser.

But it remains a fact that within the football community generally, homophobia and bigotry are no longer prevalent, and that is a good thing. To bang on about it as though they were prevalent is a bad thing. The reason it is a bad thing is because the overwhelming thing about footy clubs and culture is, broadly, "leave your shit at home because we all have to pull together". That allows room for clubs to coalesce around members who from time to time suffer genuine crises....things like family deaths, severe depression, alcohol abuse, unemployment, marriage breakdown etc etc. Clubs are, for the most part, great at assisting in all of those matters. I've seen it. What clubs don't need or won't accept is some clown waltzing in with a rainbow flag demanding acceptance. It doesn't work that way.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

And homophobic jokes are okay to a point? I don't get why you'd say this.

Um.....because all jokes, meant in a fun and non nasty way, are ok to a point. Even those about homosexuality. And if you contend that jokes about homosexuality are not ok in any context, then you are indeed seeking to place yourself (or homosexuals) as a group to be treated differently. Which is kind of counter to the whole equality point.

 

[mtooler]

I'm not disavowing it because I don't like it, I'm disavowing it because it's ridiculous that someone who has never and will never experience the effects of homophobia claiming that it isn't an issue anymore is ridiculous.

That sounds very heterophobic of you, I think you need to walk a mile in his shoes before you be so quick to judge.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The sad irony about treatment of all minority groups and that includes homophobia toward homosexuals is that the hypersensitivity of the minority group borne of bad experiences perpetuates the belief system that there remains the homophobic mistreatment. The ideal of course is that all people be treated exactly the same as everyone else.....where people can make gay jokes just because they're funny without fear of reprisal. With exception of some we are much closer to that ideal than many think.....but a real impediment to that is gays being stuck in the mud (excuse the pun lol) and inhibiting reaching the goal. Ie chip on shoulder.

I try to treat all the same......but with that comes the fact I'll call a spade a spade. If there is chip on shoulder and hypersensitivity then get over it I say. Want a level playing field then there is no special treatment in ridicule or in reverse with political correctness because that's what a level playing field entails.

Sometimes in order to shake yourself free of the past you have to first pretend it is as you want it so you can realise it actually is.

 

[BarneyBent]

We just had a SSM vote in which approximately 40% of the country voted against giving equal rights to the gay community.

Don’t tell me homophobia is dead. Things are better than they’ve been in a long time but there is still a lot of resistance there. Shows of support like this are nice.

 

[Kummerspeck]

It's quite interesting how selective you are about what you respond to. I didn't "all but say it". I didn't say it. "Prevalent" has a meaning. It's not "semantics" to point out it is different to what you quoted.

Leaning on really minor degrees of language is semantics.

But it remains a fact that within the football community generally, homophobia and bigotry are no longer prevalent

That's not a fact. That's what you believe based on your personal experience.

What clubs don't need or won't accept is some clown waltzing in with a rainbow flag demanding acceptance. It doesn't work that way.

What on Earth...?

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Leaning on really minor degrees of language is semantics.

No. Words have meanings, and the difference between "not prevalent" and "non-existant" is not a minor difference. In your haste to paint me as some sort of "old, white, hetero bloke" you went ahead and argued against something I never wrote.

That's not a fact. That's what you believe based on your personal experience.

If it wasn't a fact, in today's climate, there'd be a campaign of outrage across the board and clubs would be effectively shut down and unable to get sponsors. Again, you should probably look up the meaning of "prevalent".

What on Earth...?

You may have heard the expression, no player is bigger than the club? This line was an illustration. It shouldn't be too difficult to work out.

 

[daymee]

1. I think the Mardi Gras float, whilst it makes me cringe, is probably good PR and will get us some members.

Cringe all you like, you don't have to go if you don't like it. But for those that are there, it shows that the Swans have put their money where their mouth is.They have a Diversity Action Plan to make footy inclusive for minorities and that includes not only the LGBTQI community but women and ATSI people as well.

2. Homophobia hasn't been prevalent in footy for nigh on 20 years. The occasional instances of it in crowds of supporters won't be eradicated by participation in a parade.

Obviously you haven't been to any Hawthorn games or the 2014 Grand Final when numerous Hawks supporters called out the following

Goodesy takes it to the arse
Go back to Oxford St/Mardi Gras
Sydney ******s

Their attendance at the parade won't erase homophobic behavior, but it shows that the Swans don't agree with it. BTW the pivot to LGBTQI inclusion was a player-led initiative if you watched the videos released by the club around the Pride Match. You probably don't see our hear it either, but there is misogynistic abuse as well at the footy. "You're playing like a girl!" is another common one.

3. People, by and large, would like to be able to just get on with their lives irrespective of their skin colour, gender, sexuality or the rest without being constantly badgered at by a small group of others who seem dedicated to perpetuating a sense of victimhood in society.

Spoken like someone who isn't constantly marginalised, speaking for everyone. Please, tell us all how the minorities like to be treated, as you are our spokesperson. Let's play you 17% less because of your gender, or be glossed over for jobs because your name sounds too ethnic. Research shows it happens.

4. It does seem that going to the footy now seems to necessarily include some sort of sermon from someone about something largely no longer existent.

It may seem largely no longer existent for you because it doesn't happen to you. Do you fear showing affection to your loved one in public? In certain suburbs and actually even within our own enclaves, our community is BASHED and even r*ped for being themselves. There has been an increase in attacks on LGBTQI people since the marriage equality debate. People literally drive around in cars looking to bash ****ters and trannies on weekends.

You might not like the indigenous round, but it is important to indigenous players to share their culture beyond just being a footballer. It is often one of the few times the general Australian public has any contact with ATSI culture which is woefully under-appreciated. Women's round salutes in particular the mothers and partners who make significant sacrifices for their sons and partners to become footballers. Multicultural round celebrates players from diverse backgrounds, learning a new, unique sport and finding a welcoming environment and community and commonality which helps assimilation.

How does recognising this at the footy really take anything at all away from you? It makes me wonder what your life experience has been to lack compassion and empathy for other people who have had a different life experience to you. If you truly love footy as much as you say you do, wouldn't you want to share that experience with more people? And don't you think, by these moves and engagement with different communities, that the love and passion for footy will grow? And what about the future talent pool? They're all resources that need to be looked at our you'll have a league played solely by white schoolboys from Victoria and SA.

Even the AFL recognises that supporters do not grow on trees. Football (soccer) is huge at grassroots level and their supporter and viewer numbers are growing. There are more NRL clubs coming in the next few years. Union is a mess but has a true international league.

 

[Kummerspeck]

If it wasn't a fact, in today's climate, there'd be a campaign of outrage across the board and clubs would be effectively shut down and unable to get sponsors.

Again, in the last few months there was a game our own club was involved in where people with more insight than as to what it's like being homosexual in a footballing environment quite clearly outlined that homophobia in football isn't some relic that doesn't really show up any more. If you want to claim it as a fact, you'll need to do better than offering your observations as someone who would never have experienced it.

You may have heard the expression, no player is bigger than the club? This line was an illustration. It shouldn't be too difficult to work out.

It's a pretty poor (and telling) way of phrasing it.