Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[MickG88]

No, St Kilda had exclusive access. No other club could get near them. They have done well with NGA.

Every team that had a pick in the first round had access to them.

 

[RAPPA]

View attachment 2002588

He’s the grandfather of bad coaching appointments

 

[Rich01]

Coming from a guy who supports a team known for stealing NGAs from other teams. Shakes my head.

Steals NGAs? Tell me more.

 

[Freomaniac]

Saints rapidly starting to smell like North. Both clubs have zero attractiveness. No player of note will up stumps and move to either club.

Henry like Taranto and Hopper suddenly realises he's made a wrong move

Very Harsh on Saint Kilda. Saints have actually been competitve most games despite the 3 wins and 8 losses record.


Saints have some solid players all over the ground.

Josh Battle and dougal howard are solid tall defenders.

Jack Sinclair, Brad Hill and Liam Henry all get rotated on the back flanks and play in the midfield.

Jack Steele and Brad Crouch are solid mids.

Up Forward there is Max King, Caminiti and Wanganeen-Milera.



North Melbourne are terrible. Forward line at least has Larkey and Zuhaar. Midfield is semi decent with Sheezel and Powell. Backline is in tatters with 3 or 4 of their back 6 injured.

I have said this before and will say it Again. I didnt mind North Melbourne doing their list Cull at the end of 2021. But what North should of done was drafted at least one or 2 tall defenders back in either the 2020 or 2021 drafts. Had North got 2 tall 195-199 cm tall defenders in the 2021 draft, they could rotate them to play every 2nd game from round 1 of 2022. By the end of 2024, thats a couple of 21 or 22 year old KPDs with 20 or 25 or 30 each under the belt.


Again, despite the saints having 3 wins from 11 games, they havent been as bad or as hopeless as North Melbourne.

Its not like the saints have been belted by 60-80 points each week.

Saints have loss Narrowly to Cats, Essendon, GWS and Port and hawks. they turn those 5 narrow losses into wins and they would have 8 wins and 3 losses.

 

[Freomaniac]

I don’t know why Ross cops the blame, the list is trash.

They have this weird ability to get one-off AA calibre seasons out of players- Dan Butler, Steele, I think Mason Wood was close- but then they just revert to potatos the year after.

Feel for them, they had a great season last year with the talent available but it’s done them a disservice. They need to hit multiple drafts.

Out of 100 percent of the saints Problems, I say 15-25% of the problem is Ross Lyon. the rest of the remaining %75-85 percent is everything else from the players, training staff, recruiters and other coaches.

I dont think Ross Lyon hasnt been a terrible coach this season.

Yes the saints have 3 wins and 8 losses, but they have lost a few close games.

 

[beside the seaside]

The funny thing is we're actually doing what most opposition fans on this thread have been saying we should do for years. And yet we cop it even harder

 

[Freomaniac]

Ross is actually a really dumb guy

Having an ego and being confident is one thing. Which he has.

Being a thick, stupid, dumb ,thug, social climber is who he really is.

He's a snake oil guy.

I dare you to believe

Well 1st off if Ross Lyon was a dumb coach, he wouldn't of lasted as long as now.

This bloke got the saints to a grand final in 2009 and 2010. Well not surprising as saints had talent when Ross Lyon was coaching there from 2007-2011.

If Ross Lyon was dumb, he wouldn't of got Freo to a grand final in 2013. He sure as well wouldn't of lasted until 2019 if he was totally dumb.

I don't give a stuff what anyone says about Ross Lyon, I savoured every one of those 9 finals from 2012-15.

I just find it funny and ironic that anti Ross Lyon and saints fans spent 8 years from 2012-19 sinking the boots on Ross Lyon calling him a snake oil salesmen.

Yet in an ironic and funny way, the saints hired him back!

 

[phantom13]

Well 1st off if Ross Lyon was a dumb coach, he wouldn't of lasted as long as now.

This bloke got the saints to a grand final in 2009 and 2010. Well not surprising as saints had talent when Ross Lyon was coaching there from 2007-2011.

If Ross Lyon was dumb, he wouldn't of got Freo to a grand final in 2013. He sure as well wouldn't of lasted until 2019 if he was totally dumb.

I don't give a stuff what anyone says about Ross Lyon, I savoured every one of those 9 finals from 2012-15.

I just find it funny and ironic that anti Ross Lyon and saints fans spent 8 years from 2012-19 sinking the boots on Ross Lyon calling him a snake oil salesmen.

Yet in an ironic and funny way, the saints hired him back!

I don’t think many knowledgable saints fans called him a snake oil salesman, he went all in on a very talented list for that 09-10 stretch and the bottom fell out of it in 11.

He left cause he thought he was worth more than we did and whilst it was traumatic and tough (for both clubs, plenty of Freo people weren’t pleased about the way Harvey was treated either) I can’t blame him one bit for it.

 

[Freomaniac]

I don’t think many knowledgable saints fans called him a snake oil salesman, he went all in on a very talented list for that 09-10 stretch and the bottom fell out of it in 11.

He left cause he thought he was worth more than we did and whilst it was traumatic and tough (for both clubs, plenty of Freo people weren’t pleased about the way Harvey was treated either) I can’t blame him one bit for it.

You know what?

I was one of the dockers fans that was upset that Mark Harvey was sacked.

Looking back now, it's one of the best things to ever happen at my club.

I don't care about what the Ross Lyon bashers has to say. I will always savour every final under Ross Lyon from 2012 until 2015. It's the only time Freo has made a sustainable finals push or made finals at least 2 years in a row.



Freo only made finals 3 times between 1995-2011.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Very Harsh on Saint Kilda. Saints have actually been competitve most games despite the 3 wins and 8 losses record.


Saints have some solid players all over the ground.

Josh Battle and dougal howard are solid tall defenders.

Jack Sinclair, Brad Hill and Liam Henry all get rotated on the back flanks and play in the midfield.

Jack Steele and Brad Crouch are solid mids.

Up Forward there is Max King, Caminiti and Wanganeen-Milera.



North Melbourne are terrible. Forward line at least has Larkey and Zuhaar. Midfield is semi decent with Sheezel and Powell. Backline is in tatters with 3 or 4 of their back 6 injured.

I have said this before and will say it Again. I didnt mind North Melbourne doing their list Cull at the end of 2021. But what North should of done was drafted at least one or 2 tall defenders back in either the 2020 or 2021 drafts. Had North got 2 tall 195-199 cm tall defenders in the 2021 draft, they could rotate them to play every 2nd game from round 1 of 2022. By the end of 2024, thats a couple of 21 or 22 year old KPDs with 20 or 25 or 30 each under the belt.


Again, despite the saints having 3 wins from 11 games, they havent been as bad or as hopeless as North Melbourne.

Its not like the saints have been belted by 60-80 points each week.

Saints have loss Narrowly to Cats, Essendon, GWS and Port and hawks. they turn those 5 narrow losses into wins and they would have 8 wins and 3 losses.

Solid doesn't win you games of football in the AFL. Of those you mentioned, I don't think any would get a game at a top 10 club in competition with the equivalent player at that club (taking into account salary cap, experience etc). Max Kings not getting picked over Curnow, Wright, Hogan, his brother... etc. Only place he would get a game would be teams without proper key forwards like Sydney and Melbourne and then you have salary issues at those clubs having to take money from the midfield (in Sydneys case) or the backline (in Melbourne's case). Same with Battle and Howard, Hill and Henry, Steele and Crouch. Sinclair may be one, but I think recent form has conned a lot of people. He's been good the past three years but he was a bog ordinary player most of his career, maybe his poorer performance this year is a return to form rather than a form slump. Wanganeen Milera probably the only one who would get a gig and that's primarily because he's young and has upside.

 

[Holden Megroin]

Solid doesn't win you games of football in the AFL. Of those you mentioned, I don't think any would get a game at a top 10 club in competition with the equivalent player at that club (taking into account salary cap, experience etc). Max Kings not getting picked over Curnow, Wright, Hogan, his brother... etc. Only place he would get a game would be teams without proper key forwards like Sydney and Melbourne and then you have salary issues at those clubs having to take money from the midfield (in Sydneys case) or the backline (in Melbourne's case). Same with Battle and Howard, Hill and Henry, Steele and Crouch. Sinclair may be one, but I think recent form has conned a lot of people. He's been good the past three years but he was a bog ordinary player most of his career, maybe his poorer performance this year is a return to form rather than a form slump. Wanganeen Milera probably the only one who would get a gig and that's primarily because he's young and has upside.

Dear God.

 

[Osho]

Dear God.

Yes, my son?

 

[Pistol Night]

Yes, my son?

God is a GWS supporter? Saints can’t take a trick

 

[PJays]

Marshall, Wilkie, Sinclair, Steele, Crouch, NWM, King would get a game with anyone. (Maybe not on current form, but imagine you were picking a team pre Round 1 2024). Hill when in form. Higgins would get a game with most teams.

2-3 years ago I would've added Membrey and Ross. Definitely not anymore.

Saints list isn't terrible.

The biggest problem is most of those players are 28 or more. As many have said, the Saints young group looks OK rather than uber promising.

Bottom line- St Kilda needs some diamonds to emerge from the rough. Only time will tell.

 

[Rabish Binney]

Maybe if RTB coached his club to pay attacking footy, and to try to kick more goal than the opposition, that might be a good start.

His style of footy is deplorable.

St Kilda are unwatchable as a footy team.

 

[Jeremias]

Marshall, Wilkie, Sinclair, Steele, Crouch, NWM, King would get a game with anyone. (Maybe not on current form, but imagine you were picking a team pre Round 1 2024).

Hill when in form. Higgins would get a game with most teams.

This is true, though you could create a similar list for all clubs, even North Melbourne.

Saints list isn't terrible.

The biggest problem is most of those players are 28 or more. As many have said, the Saints young group looks OK rather than uber promising.

Bottom line- St Kilda needs some diamonds to emerge from the rough. Only time will tell.

St Kilda is paying the price for a string of list management decisions over a 3-4 year period that grossly overstated where the club was at.

There is no easy or quick way out of that. I actually think what the club is doing now is correct.

I am a fan of Ross and SOS and believe they will set St Kilda on the correct path, though it won't be pretty for a few years, particularly when coupled with Lyon's style of play.

 

[Wolfgang West]

As a supporter of my age from a club that were once a complete mess being
South Melbourne I actually feel sorry for Saints fans as them and Fitzroy were always similar to us in a lack of success. They are far and away the worst run club in the history of the game and just watching footy classified and the complete dribble that Andrew Bassett talks there is no light at the end of the tunnel. The man looks like one of the Thunderbirds.
Thunderbirds are Go !
Saints may never be.

 

[Gavin Excell]

This is true, though you could create a similar list for all clubs, even North Melbourne.



St Kilda is paying the price for a string of list management decisions over a 3-4 year period that grossly overstated where the club was at.

There is no easy or quick way out of that. I actually think what the club is doing now is correct.

I am a fan of Ross and SOS and believe they will set St Kilda on the correct path, though it won't be pretty for a few years, particularly when coupled with Lyon's style of play.

Do you think the Lyon game plan is such that it will discourage attracting free agents?

 

[zigipop]

Ross is actually a really dumb guy

Having an ego and being confident is one thing. Which he has.

Being a thick, stupid, dumb ,thug, social climber is who he really is.

He's a snake oil guy.

I dare you to believe

It’s hubris. And he’ll take the club down with him because of it.

 

[Jeremias]

Do you think the Lyon game plan is such that it will discourage attracting free agents?

I doubt it. At least not significantly.

There are a number of other factors far more likely to prevent a notable free agent from going there at the moment.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

This is true, though you could create a similar list for all clubs, even North Melbourne.



St Kilda is paying the price for a string of list management decisions over a 3-4 year period that grossly overstated where the club was at.

There is no easy or quick way out of that. I actually think what the club is doing now is correct.

I am a fan of Ross and SOS and believe they will set St Kilda on the correct path, though it won't be pretty for a few years, particularly when coupled with Lyon's style of play.

I find it strange that AFL fans point to “the list” when it is abundantly clear when you watch the Saints, that our skill levels and ball movement, especially under pressure, are a long way off it and frankly disgraceful for a professional sports team.

As in, every player on our list butchers the pill and makes poor decisions regularly.

So many fans of our sport, because of the substandard media coverage and, therefore, a lack of education on tactics just simply point at a “list” as a problem. Whereas, logically, could our drafting be so poor that we have messed up every pick and only picked ball-butchers?

Of course not, it’s an equalized comp.

This is where development of players comes in, and where coaches like Lyon are responsible.

The best example I can give to explain this is, a good friend and former uni colleague is a sports psych professor, specializing in player development in soccer. He was involved in trying to change the development culture in the English FA almost a couple of decades back.

After touring the renowned French FA and some renowned development clubs like Barca, him and his colleagues came up with a blueprint for success to try and change the training culture across the English FA.

Problem was, they had great resistance from the more old-school “defensive” coaches, who were distrustful of their methods (best analogy he gave was that, it takes hours and hours for someone to build a beautiful sand castle on the beach, but only a few seconds to kick it down… and many football managers had made careers on their ability to metaphorically kick down sand castles as it is a quicker and easier way to get results).

It’s taken almost two decades, but these managers have been gradually weeded out of British football. They simply don’t understand how to coach skills in a way that succeeds in the modern game and their defensive tactics no longer deliver results the way they once did as other progressive teams and coaches are able to teach their players how to execute skills under pressure.

Bringing it back to AFL and Ross Lyon, the league is a few years behind soccer but is now going through a similar evolution in tactics. Defensive managers and tactics are dying. Worst of all, coaches who espouse them, are stifling development of players.

The problem in the AFL industry is the media is a boys club so refuses to highlight this and educate the public. And also - and this has happened at the Saints - board members are not up-to-date with tactical trends of the game so will still hire the likes of Lyon.

That we’ve also given him free rein over hiring coaches is an unmitigated disaster.

He is simply unable to develop players to perform the skills they need to in the modern game. But our board have given him the keys to the club and , what looks like, the green light for a re-build.

It’s a perfect shitstorm that will hit our club in the next new years. I doubt we’ll survive it, but the fans are cheering Ross on from the sidelines because he and his President have sold them a lie.

 

[Freomaniac]

Solid doesn't win you games of football in the AFL. Of those you mentioned, I don't think any would get a game at a top 10 club in competition with the equivalent player at that club (taking into account salary cap, experience etc). Max Kings not getting picked over Curnow, Wright, Hogan, his brother... etc. Only place he would get a game would be teams without proper key forwards like Sydney and Melbourne and then you have salary issues at those clubs having to take money from the midfield (in Sydneys case) or the backline (in Melbourne's case). Same with Battle and Howard, Hill and Henry, Steele and Crouch. Sinclair may be one, but I think recent form has conned a lot of people. He's been good the past three years but he was a bog ordinary player most of his career, maybe his poorer performance this year is a return to form rather than a form slump. Wanganeen Milera probably the only one who would get a gig and that's primarily because he's young and has upside.

Max King would walk into a few teams best 23. Definately walk into all sides in the bottom 4 or bottom 6. Easily would be in Norths, Richmonds and hawks forward line.

I look at the teams in the top 10. Collingwood, Dockers and Demons would want a Max King on their side.

Battle is 193 cm and is a free agent. He Plays centre half back but can play up forward too.. A few teams will definately look at him as he is the type that would be in demand.

Dougal Howard is a 199 cm tall defender that takes on the full forwards or ruck men in the goal square. If He was a free agent, teams would look at him too.

Brad Hill when fully fit and in top form would easily walk into most teams best 23 on a wing, Foward flank, back flank or on the bench. He won flags at the hawks in 2013-5 but he was younger and a rotation player. He goes to freo and plays there in 2017-19. 2018 he was injury prone and played 10 games. In 2017, Brad Hill was freos 2017 club champion playing all 22 games and got 550 disposals or on average 25 disposals a game. He got Similiar stats in 2019 too which was part of the reason Saints traded heavily for him. Brad Hills 2021-23 stats are good. He was still averaging 20-22 disposals a game.

Jack Steele is easily the saints best inside mid. He got All Australian in 2020 and 2021. In 2021 he was averaging 29.2 disposals a game. In 2022, he was averaging 27.1 disposals a game. He average 23.8 disposals in 2023.

Its half way into the 2024 season and he still averages 24.8 disposals a game.

I have seen Liam Henry Play. 43 goals and 13 games for freo from 2020-23. From round 13 until round 24 in 2023, Henry posted ok stats including a couple of 30 disposal games. I think he can be a solid 15-20 disposal a game winger or forward flanker.

Matt Crouch is an interesting one. Yes He does average 26.6 disposals in his career. He has posted decent numbers stats wise as a saint in 2021-23. But the saints are decent if Crouch is the 3rd or 4th best inside mid in the side. He does get plenty of the ball, but he doesnt do enough damage.



Jack Sinclair is an interesting one. His Stats from 2015 to 2020 is below average for an AFL player. He did get 443 disposals from 21 games in 2021 so he was averaging 20-22 disposals a game for a bloke that plays all over the ground as a back flanker, forward flanker or midfielder.

He did deserve his 2022 and 2023 All Australian shirt. He got 609 disposals in 22 games in 2022 and 693 disposals from 24 games in 2023, including 25 disposals in an elim final loss to the giants.

Not shocked he won the saints best and fairest in 2022 and 2023.

Even in 2024, he has got 259 disposals and played 10 games .

He would of walked into most sides best 23 in the last 2 and a half seasons.


Wanganeen Milera I agree has some upside as he is still young.


Saying that. All those players you listed are all Solid players. If they are all playing well, they would be contending for a finals spot and possibly make finals like they did in 2023.

 

[Rabish Binney]

I find it strange that AFL fans point to “the list” when it is abundantly clear when you watch the Saints, that our skill levels and ball movement, especially under pressure, are a long way off it and frankly disgraceful for a professional sports team.

As in, every player on our list butchers the pill and makes poor decisions regularly.

So many fans of our sport, because of the substandard media coverage and, therefore, a lack of education on tactics just simply point at a “list” as a problem. Whereas, logically, could our drafting be so poor that we have messed up every pick and only picked ball-butchers?

Of course not, it’s an equalized comp.

This is where development of players comes in, and where coaches like Lyon are responsible.

The best example I can give to explain this is, a good friend and former uni colleague is a sports psych professor, specializing in player development in soccer. He was involved in trying to change the development culture in the English FA almost a couple of decades back.

After touring the renowned French FA and some renowned development clubs like Barca, him and his colleagues came up with a blueprint for success to try and change the training culture across the English FA.

Problem was, they had great resistance from the more old-school “defensive” coaches, who were distrustful of their methods (best analogy he gave was that, it takes hours and hours for someone to build a beautiful sand castle on the beach, but only a few seconds to kick it down… and many football managers had made careers on their ability to metaphorically kick down sand castles as it is a quicker and easier way to get results).

It’s taken almost two decades, but these managers have been gradually weeded out of British football. They simply don’t understand how to coach skills in a way that succeeds in the modern game and their defensive tactics no longer deliver results the way they once did as other progressive teams and coaches are able to teach their players how to execute skills under pressure.

Bringing it back to AFL and Ross Lyon, the league is a few years behind soccer but is now going through a similar evolution in tactics. Defensive managers and tactics are dying. Worst of all, coaches who espouse them, are stifling development of players.

The problem in the AFL industry is the media is a boys club so refuses to highlight this and educate the public. And also - and this has happened at the Saints - board members are not up-to-date with tactical trends of the game so will still hire the likes of Lyon.

That we’ve also given him free rein over hiring coaches is an unmitigated disaster.

He is simply unable to develop players to perform the skills they need to in the modern game. But our board have given him the keys to the club and , what looks like, the green light for a re-build.

It’s a perfect shitstorm that will hit our club in the next new years. I doubt we’ll survive it, but the fans are cheering Ross on from the sidelines because he and his President have sold them a lie.

Well said. Summed up perfectly.

 

[Holden Megroin]

Imagine having one flag in your history, a winning streak DVD that lead to nothing and currently being lead by the most boring coach and person of all time with a list and game plan that is about as uninspiring as it gets.

I’m depressed just typing it and it’s not even my team.

I can’t remember the last Saints game I’ve watched all the way through aside from when we play them, and even then it’s hard to enjoy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They need the AFL to give them the same assistance Sydney get.

 

[mike ross]

They need the AFL to give them the same assistance Sydney get

Good point. However, how do you explain St Kilda's years before Sydney's or Brisbane's or any other club's assistance packages?