Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[SuperMal]

I trace it all the way back to here

View attachment 2002319

- geezus don’t do that without warning us!

 

[Rich01]

Top 20, my mistake, think it’s changed further since then. So nevertheless 33 players at best went before them.

Yup, so my comment from several posts ago was correct. St Kilda have benefitted quite well from the NGA rules, and indeed picked up those two for a packet of chips.

I’m not sure why there is such disagreement about what the Saints and Roos have and haven’t got.

In my view they have both brought in players from other clubs reasonably well.

They have both benefited from the FS/NGA rules.
They have both had good access to top level junior talent.

Some seem to think that because North lost Mackay (which they didn’t even bother matching the contract as was their right) to Essendon and both Weitering and LDU not publicly committing to St Kilda a year and a half before their contract expires, they are at this huge disadvantage.

And don’t start on the North cash cowboys. In what world would have Dusty, DeGoey or Gaff taking millions off the clubs books have done any good for them from 2018 to now? That was a short term tactic to try to remain relevant after they booted their heart and soul veterans.

 

[Dogflogger]

Geez id love to have Windhager and Owens in Richmond’s team at the moment. Cost you a packet of chips too.

Yeah i guess that's pretty similar to the dogs getting JUH and a never ending amount of father sons, Or pretty much the same as Quaynor, Moore and the daicos boys. how many packets of chips did it cost those teams?

 

[Mat Mann]

Yeah and guess what? We had to use high picks to get them.
Isn't the whole idea to use high picks on good players and not shit players?
If you think that's an AFL conspiracy then that's fine.
And didn't you just win a flag with three father son players?
Seriously get a grip.

Mills at pick 3, cost sydney 4 picks in the 30's onwards (33, 36, 37 and 43), which you traded pick 18 to get

If you read their autopsy thread it’s the northern states fault that they are terrible.
Kicking 34 points per game and 40% of their list being rejects from other clubs has nothing to do with it.

no one is blaming the Northern clubs, we don't have the means to get talent as they do, give Stkilda GCS haul last tear and we'll be well underway in rebuilding our club, Instead our 1st pick is pushed back multiple spots( to accommodate said Academy) we have to lose a RFA (Gresham) for band 2 compo, and that pick is pushed out to mid way through '20s. The mechanisms are not even. Like your club, we screwed the draft for a decade and instead, we traded for some c graders because the AFL wouldn't let us rebuild again and we weren't given 8 Friday night games a year to help with the bottom line

Goldy pushed out the door by North and they couldn’t wait to offload McKay once compo was secured.
The others aren’t FA’s and we had to trade for them and most people say we gave up too much for Shiel.
I’d argue that the Saints have recruited just as many of not more players over the last few years

see above as to why

Its hard to lure players when you're down the bottom unfortunately

so how does one improve? The Draft is a broken mechanism, how does the cycle get broken?

Get better? how?

St Kilda and North shouldn’t be whinging about their inability to attract FA talent to their clubs. They need to find a way to make it an appealing place for future employees to work there.

Fix that rather than whinge and moan about it not being fair. Both these clubs have had significant leg ups on father sons and nga compared to other Melbourne clubs too.

They need to take responsibility for their own plight rather than whinge and be seen as handout clubs.

FS last 10 years - Bailey Rice - 11 games/delisted - Ade WCE and Port have had more F/S than Stkilda's entire history.
FA attracted last 10 years - Brad Crouch - Adelaide wanted him gone for the compo, had they wanted him to stay, he would have
NGA - Owens(33) and Windhaeger(47) both fell out of the top 20 exclusion zone
Cam McKenzie - we weren't able to get him because he went within the top 40 exclusion zone

not after handouts at all, but if you think the comp is fair and even and all clubs have reasonable access to FA's and star players then reality isn't your friend.

The Saints haven’t received more than the minimum yearly AFL funding since the early 2000s? I find that hard to believe. In fact North and St Kilda are two of the biggest financial drainers of the Melbourne clubs during this time.

always find this term amusing, never any explanation as to how this figure is arrived at but it includes revenue from Marvel that every club also receives but we play the most games of any team at. It's funny that we want to get away from Marvel and host few games at the MCG because we make more money there. It's an AFL-owned stadium and our clubs still can't generate enough income. point the finger at the AFL

No, St Kilda had exclusive access. No other club could get near them. They have done well with NGA.

so wrong

 

[WillHayward]

Mills at pick 3, cost sydney 4 picks in the 30's onwards (33, 36, 37 and 43), which you traded pick 18 to get


no one is blaming the Northern clubs, we don't have the means to get talent as they do, give Stkilda GCS haul last tear and we'll be well underway in rebuilding our club, Instead our 1st pick is pushed back multiple spots( to accommodate said Academy) we have to lose a RFA (Gresham) for band 2 compo, and that pick is pushed out to mid way through '20s. The mechanisms are not even. Like your club, we screwed the draft for a decade and instead, we traded for some c graders because the AFL wouldn't let us rebuild again and we weren't given 8 Friday night games a year to help with the bottom line


see above as to why



so how does one improve? The Draft is a broken mechanism, how does the cycle get broken?

Get better? how?


FS last 10 years - Bailey Rice - 11 games/delisted - Ade WCE and Port have had more F/S than Stkilda's entire history.
FA attracted last 10 years - Brad Crouch - Adelaide wanted him gone for the compo, had they wanted him to stay, he would have
NGA - Owens(33) and Windhaeger(47) both fell out of the top 20 exclusion zone
Cam McKenzie - we weren't able to get him because he went within the top 40 exclusion zone

not after handouts at all, but if you think the comp is fair and even and all clubs have reasonable access to FA's and star players then reality isn't your friend.


always find this term amusing, never any explanation as to how this figure is arrived at but it includes revenue from Marvel that every club also receives but we play the most of any team at. It's funny that we want to get away from Marvel and host few games at the MCG because we make more money there. It's an AFL owned stadium and our clubs still can't generate enough income. point the finger at the AFL


so wrong

Mills has played zero games this year. Don't think we are on top because of him.

 

[littlecreatures]

Yup, so my comment from several posts ago was correct. St Kilda have benefitted quite well from the NGA rules, and indeed picked up those two for a packet of chips.

I’m not sure why there is such disagreement about what the Saints and Roos have and haven’t got.

In my view they have both brought in players from other clubs reasonably well.

They have both benefited from the FS/NGA rules.
They have both had good access to top level junior talent.

Some seem to think that because North lost Mackay (which they didn’t even bother matching the contract as was their right) to Essendon and both Weitering and LDU not publicly committing to St Kilda a year and a half before their contract expires, they are at this huge disadvantage.

And don’t start on the North cash cowboys. In what world would have Dusty, DeGoey or Gaff taking millions off the clubs books have done any good for them from 2018 to now? That was a short term tactic to try to remain relevant after they booted their heart and soul veterans.

I respectfully disagree when every other club could’ve taken either Mitchito or Windy inside the top 20 and didn’t. Hey, even could’ve put through a bid inside 30 (2nd round) and didn’t.

 

[Pistol Night]

Mills has played zero games this year. Don't think we are on top because of him.

Of course. You're on top because of Grundy and Adams

 

[Mat Mann]

Mills has played zero games this year. Don't think we are on top because of him.

I didnt say he was, fact was he was rated in the top 3 prospects, and no-one but Sydney had access, and to get that access all they had to do was hand over a very cheap (in comparison) price.

Pick 18 would have been cheap, but instead, what was even paid was multitudes less

 

[WillHayward]

We know. We had the Brown brothers

Good wine makers. Worth it.

 

[Pistol Night]

Good wine makers. Worth it.

They certainly played like they had a bottle prior to games

 

[Rich01]

Yeah i guess that's pretty similar to the dogs getting JUH and a never ending amount of father sons, Or pretty much the same as Quaynor, Moore and the daicos boys. how many packets of chips did it cost those teams?

Yep, but they aren’t the ones that think it’s all unfair do they?

 

[Holden Megroin]

Mills has played zero games this year. Don't think we are on top because of him.

Heeney has been poor and Blakey is fringe.

 

[Rich01]

I respectfully disagree when every other club could’ve taken either Mitchito or Windy inside the top 20 and didn’t. Hey, even could’ve put through a bid inside 30 (2nd round) and didn’t.

Putting a bid in after 20 before 30 would have no implications at all. You still would have access to him.
And you split your picks up to get him for a sprinkling of late picks. Saints got a good deal with these guys and the NGA rules.
You’d be arguing against their talent to suggest otherwise.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Ross is actually a really dumb guy

Having an ego and being confident is one thing. Which he has.

Being a thick, stupid, dumb ,thug, social climber is who he really is.

He's a snake oil guy.

I dare you to believe

You’re not necessarily wrong, although those traits you mentioned were why he was successful first time around.

The league was different then and, if you were like Ross and good at manipulating a group to buy into all-out stifling defense, you could do pretty well. He was pretty good at pushing players buttons and getting a group to work well as a defensive unit.

The league has changed though, that style of coaching simply doesn’t work any more.

A good example to use to illustrate my point is your club actually.

Now I’m not saying Horse is the same as Ross, but a few years back there was a stagnation around the Swans and their defensive gameplan.

Why the Swans are a successful club is that, at board level, they made a tactical decision to bring in a coach who could teach the group - and by extension Horse- about dynamic ball movement under pressure.

That was Don Pyke. Don Pyke was a lot of things as a coach but one thing could never be denied is that his Crows teams were always excellent kicking teams and could move the ball under pressure.

This was the sign of the Swans being a strong club. They haven’t let a coach call the shots.

The results are there for all to see. Suddenly, after Pyke came on board, the Swans are now the most exciting team to watch ball movement wise in the comp.

And the beauty of it is that, young midfielders like Gulden and Warner (not high draft picks) thrive in such a fantastic development environment, where skill execution is paramount.

Compare that to Lyon and the Saints.

Our president idiotically brought Lyon back, even though his style is the antithesis to what works nowadays. But not only that, out President compounded the problems by allowing Lyon to sack any possible dissenters and install a group of yes men from his first stint at the club.

A lack of understanding of where the tactics in the sport are heading at board level, has led to a situation where we are stuck with a busted flush of a coach and (this is the worst thing) our players will simply not be able to develop while playing with such horrendous tactics as Ross employs (you see it already with the likes of Philippou - after a bright start- stagnating under Lyon).

Change needs to happen from board level down but Ross has skillfully now turned attention from him to “the list” with the help of cheerleaders like ex-player Joe Montagna leading the chorus.

It’s a terribly sad state of affairs that our club has now turned into Ross Lyon FC, and that any dissenting voices get howled down by the cult.

It could very easily kill the club if he is given the keys to a full rebuild.

 

[littlecreatures]

Putting a bid in after 20 before 30 would have no implications at all. You still would have access to him.
And you split your picks up to get him for a sprinkling of late picks. Saints got a good deal with these guys and the NGA rules.
You’d be arguing against their talent to suggest otherwise.

Well, duh, but the reality is no club rated either high enough to even try. I disagree, they were both ultimately picked in the 30s and 40s. That’s hardly a good deal lol. I rate their talent, other clubs clearly don’t given they were picked so late in the draft.

 

[Crankyhawk]

As I said at the start of the season, no opposition fans has gone into a game with St Kilda and thought "Oh they look quite scary this season"

St Kilda are arguably more irrelevant than North Melbourne at this point, because everyone expects North Melbourne to be shit, some people actually expect St Kilda to be good.

There was a thread “how scared are you of st kilda”

 

[Rich01]

Well, duh, but the reality is no club rated either high enough to even try. I disagree, they were both ultimately picked in the 30s and 40s. That’s hardly a good deal lol. I rate their talent, other clubs clearly don’t given they were picked so late in the draft.

Geez now you’re complaining picking up Winhager and Owens for a few token late picks wasn’t a good deal.

I’d love my club to have a few of these bad deals.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Exactly.
How much hope would North fans have right now if they had Reid in their side?

Better still, how much better would North be to watch if they weren’t such a shit show on and off the field in 2022 to be able to properly manage JHF.
It all comes down to having the right plan off the field, to allow the team to execute on field.

Imagine JHF, Reid, LDU as their starting midfield. Then Wardlaw, McKercher, Simpkin, Sheezel and Powell as second stringers. Geez.

How do you get both sheezel and ward law? (Not your point I know)

 

[Rich01]

How do you get both sheezel and ward law? (Not your point I know)

Read post 7182

 

[kernelT]

Saints in the worst position not rebuilding or challenging arguably furthest position away from a flag

Their youth is max king and Clark cupboard is bare they struggle to develop their own so they overpay to get others like hill 900k and Hannebery on 700k

They topped up with Frawley and Ryder etc

Where to from here?

How would one define 'no-mans land'?

 

[gringo2011]

I trace it all the way back to here

View attachment 2002319

What a stud. You could use his pic as a contraceptive.

 

[Pistol Night]

What a stud. You could use his pic as a contraceptive.

Great wingman though. You'd like like Chris Hemsworth compared to Kmart Josh Bootsma there

 

[kernelT]

What a stud. You could use his pic as a contraceptive.

Dude owns the biggest social media platform on the planet, he's the one laughing.

 

[kernelT]

Lyon and Clarkson should not be allowed near football clubs

 

[MickG88]

Geez id love to have Windhager and Owens in Richmond’s team at the moment. Cost you a packet of chips too.

Coming from a guy who supports a team known for stealing NGAs from other teams. Shakes my head.