Roast St Kilda in no mans land

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Strapping Young Lad said:
Dude, you defeated Swans in the same period when they won 1 game from 6 attempts, and that 1 win was against the Roos. They were quite clearly in a form slump.
Every man and their dog could see Carlton were limping to the line when you defeated them.


You don't need to trade Sharman for Pick 2....Even a 2nd or 3rd rounder can be useful.


I doubt many would neutrals would take Philippou ahead of Sheezel, Ashcroft, Cadman, Wardlaw, Humphrie or even Weddle. Some may, but I bet a whole heap wouldn't, which is why it would be debatable.

Wilson similarly, I'm not sure many are taking him ahead of Reid, Walter, Caddy, McKercher, Watson for a start and even Windsor, Rogers and Sanders would be arguable.


I mean, if you want to ignore everything I have articulated and just say that I think you should tank, sure, be lazy.
Click to expand...
The sum of your argument is

  • you can’t get free agents
  • you need better (higher) draft picks
  • even your quality players aren’t good

How is that not advocating for tanking?

You dress it up like it’s not but it is.
 
phantom13 said:
The sum of your argument is

  • you can’t get free agents
  • you need better (higher) draft picks
  • even your quality players aren’t good

How is that not advocating for tanking?

You dress it up like it’s not but it is.
Click to expand...
Nice strawman arguements.


The sum of my arguments are:
  • St Kilda aren't Geelong/Sydney, and it's foolish to follow them or try to emulate their list management when it's so far removed from St Kilda in every facet(geography, lifestyle, culture, success).
  • If Steele and Macrae are your two best mids in 2025 you're likely not going to play finals. You need more talent in the middle.
  • There's no formline in 2024 that suggest that 2023 - playing finals - was the norm and not the outlier.
  • Saints have young talent, but don't seem to have enough topline talent that could lead them to flag contention at this stage.
  • Targeting FA's when you're not an MCG tenant with marquee games, successful culture or off-field stability is risky.
  • Saints need to prioritise the draft as it's a necessity for clubs that don't have a the luxury of pulling FA's, to add top end talent without the same risk of them overlooking you.
  • Prioritizing the draft, and subsequently making hard calls on some players in the 27+ age group to gain more draft collateral even if it's 2nd and 3rd rounders is not tanking.
 
And also, to add to my argument above, this doesn't really scream of a side that thinks they were just a few injuries off the pace.

They'll literally tearing up the coaching structure and starting again.

 

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Strapping Young Lad said:
Nice strawman arguements.


The sum of my arguments are:
  • St Kilda aren't Geelong/Sydney, and it's foolish to follow them or try to emulate their list management when it's so far removed from St Kilda in every facet(geography, lifestyle, culture, success).
  • If Steele and Macrae are your two best mids in 2025 you're likely not going to play finals. You need more talent in the middle.
  • There's no formline in 2024 that suggest that 2023 - playing finals - was the norm and not the outlier.
  • Saints have young talent, but don't seem to have enough topline talent that could lead them to flag contention at this stage.
  • Targeting FA's when you're not an MCG tenant with marquee games, successful culture or off-field stability is risky.
  • Saints need to prioritise the draft as it's a necessity for clubs that don't have a the luxury of pulling FA's, to add top end talent without the same risk of them overlooking you.
  • Prioritizing the draft, and subsequently making hard calls on some players in the 27+ age group to gain more draft collateral even if it's 2nd and 3rd rounders is not tanking.
Click to expand...

Very easy for me to say now but I genuinely think stopping some of the woe is me public whining would help. Hard to sell out of contract players and FAs if you keep crapping on about how hard it is for your club to compete. I'm not saying don't advocate fiercely for your position of course.

It was a small thing but pretty much immediately when Brisbane cleared out the coaching staff we stopped talking about how hard it is to compete as a northern side. Which in a lot of ways it can be when you are down the bottom - but it doesn't sell the club to everyone else.

I know its as much journos and player agents as well but trying to keep a lid on the warchest angle would help. Not a great look to be linked to players and just miss consistently.

Not saying either of these things is the reason the saints are where they are (that is poor drafting, without the natural advantages other sides have to overcome that) but do think an attitude reset would help.
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
Nice strawman arguements.


The sum of my arguments are:
  • St Kilda aren't Geelong/Sydney, and it's foolish to follow them or try to emulate their list management when it's so far removed from St Kilda in every facet(geography, lifestyle, culture, success).
  • If Steele and Macrae are your two best mids in 2025 you're likely not going to play finals. You need more talent in the middle.
  • There's no formline in 2024 that suggest that 2023 - playing finals - was the norm and not the outlier.
  • Saints have young talent, but don't seem to have enough topline talent that could lead them to flag contention at this stage.
  • Targeting FA's when you're not an MCG tenant with marquee games, successful culture or off-field stability is risky.
  • Saints need to prioritise the draft as it's a necessity for clubs that don't have a the luxury of pulling FA's, to add top end talent without the same risk of them overlooking you.
  • Prioritizing the draft, and subsequently making hard calls on some players in the 27+ age group to gain more draft collateral even if it's 2nd and 3rd rounders is not tanking.
Click to expand...
Not a strawman, a summation of your points.

  • St Kilda aren't Geelong/Sydney, and it's foolish to follow them or try to emulate their list management when it's so far removed from St Kilda in every facet(geography, lifestyle, culture, success)
Difference between trying to emulate their list profile and approach to their recruiting approach (noting again, its the same model youve taken, could even argue its the same as the pies) but its a fair critique, one of very few.
  • If Steele and Macrae are your two best mids in 2025 you're likely not going to play finals. You need more talent in the middle.
Two bits. We made finals with Steele and Crouch as our two best mids and thats before we really had any emerging kids to help out so, wrong. We know we need more midfield talent, hence the FA attempt.
  • There's no formline in 2024 that suggest that 2023 - playing finals - was the norm and not the outlier.
I mean there is you just wanna discount it cause it doesnt suit your narrative. Literally beat a prelim finallist, a grand finallist another finallist and scored heavily in the last 8 weeks of the year, when we had some players back from injury.
  • Saints have young talent, but don't seem to have enough topline talent that could lead them to flag contention at this stage.
Literally no way to know this yet. Wilson, King, Pou and Wang Mil all look capable of being AA multiple times over and our stars are mostly 28, hence the desire to challenge now.
  • Targeting FA's when you're not an MCG tenant with marquee games, successful culture or off-field stability is risky.
Actually fair, completely agree but the alternative is just give up on FAs altogether and let the big 4 feast, doesnt seem like a smart move either.
  • Saints need to prioritise the draft as it's a necessity for clubs that don't have a the luxury of pulling FA's, to add top end talent without the same risk of them overlooking you.
Like weve done for the last 4 years where weve used 5 first round picks? Yeh, we know, were doing that.
  • Prioritizing the draft, and subsequently making hard calls on some players in the 27+ age group to gain more draft collateral even if it's 2nd and 3rd rounders is not tanking.
As above but add in that this year we 6 kids in the draft. Including 2 in the 3rd round. Id also note that we shedded Seb Ross, Brad Crouch, Jack Hayes, Riley Bonnar, Tim Membrey. Turning over the list and playing alot of kids. Additionally your magic solution to this was trade Cooper Sharman who is 24 and an emerging key forward for a third rounder whilst also openly admitting that even if we traded 2 time AA Jack Steele we wouldnt get much for him anyway.

Frankly your lack of knowledge about not only what were doing but how were doing it really shows when you expand your points, its to be expected i wouldnt suggest i know much about the hawks kids and list strategy.

You seem to think the FA strategy is the only one weve got and thats just wrong, were doing both with the focus being on the draft. Now youll retort we need higher picks but again, the only way to do that is tank. Cull or trade our good players for picks or just play shit, there is literally no other way to get picks in the top 5, but you also dont want us to tank... or so you say.

Now to be clear, and god knows ive wasted way too much time and effort in this thread the last few days, the plan MIGHT NOT WORK, hell it probably wont work, only one team can win it each year BUT if you know anything about our list and gaemplan and everything else you would know that this plan makes far, far more sense than your suggestion.

You and most oppo supporters dont know a Sharman from a Schoenmakers so of course you wouldnt have the foggiest how we should go about it but ****ed if you dont wanna play expert on the subject while proving over and over you dont know a thing about the Saints in 24.
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
And also, to add to my argument above, this doesn't really scream of a side that thinks they were just a few injuries off the pace.

They'll literally tearing up the coaching structure and starting again.

Click to expand...

Yeh again...

One new coach and a few coaches who are already there doing new lines or roles.

Hardly tearing the structure and starting again. Also a promotion for Corey Enright, almost like we saw a club with some success and thought that looks smart.

Again, showing you dont know shit about the club.

Imma bounce cause this is getting sad... again.
 
Tom14 said:
Very easy for me to say now but I genuinely think stopping some of the woe is me public whining would help. Hard to sell out of contract players and FAs if you keep crapping on about how hard it is for your club to compete. I'm not saying don't advocate fiercely for your position of course.

It was a small thing but pretty much immediately when Brisbane cleared out the coaching staff we stopped talking about how hard it is to compete as a northern side. Which in a lot of ways it can be when you are down the bottom - but it doesn't sell the club to everyone else.

I know its as much journos and player agents as well but trying to keep a lid on the warchest angle would help. Not a great look to be linked to players and just miss consistently.

Not saying either of these things is the reason the saints are where they are (that is poor drafting, without the natural advantages other sides have to overcome that) but do think an attitude reset would help.
Click to expand...
Pretty fair comment tbh. Tend to agree all round. I think the warchest stuff is a bit of a balance, you gotta let the FAs know you’re buying but much like North in this space, if you swing and miss too many times it starts to leave a stain.
 
phantom13 said:
Pretty fair comment tbh. Tend to agree all round. I think the warchest stuff is a bit of a balance, you gotta let the FAs know you’re buying but much like North in this space, if you swing and miss too many times it starts to leave a stain.
Click to expand...

It's a pretty tough position to be in, because afl journos can't write anything but TRAIDS because they don't analyse the game so they probably write another story about the saints warchest when they have a slow news day.

Its also super easy for the saints to be used as a stalking horse by player agents to bid up other clubs or to re-sign at a higher $.

I do think getting rid of Gubby Allen would be a positive too.
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
You don't need to trade Sharman for Pick 2....Even a 2nd or 3rd rounder can be useful.
Click to expand...
I don't think any team would give up a 2nd round pick for Sharman, and I say that as a big fan of his (actually maybe Essendon would after they saw his best first hand). Draft picks are always a gamble, there are plenty of top 10 picks who have been busts, so a pick in the 30-50 range is even more uncertain.
Chances are with your suggestion we draft a player who is delisted after a couple of games, or maybe a player who is about the level Sharman is now in about 4 years. Sure, there is a small chance we draft a gun, but it is ultimately a stupid idea, similar to going to the casino and putting it all on black to get the club out of debt.
 
phantom13 said:
Two bits. We made finals with Steele and Crouch as our two best mids and thats before we really had any emerging kids to help out so, wrong. We know we need more midfield talent, hence the FA attempt.
Click to expand...
You made finals with the 12th hardest draw. I’ve already pointed this out to you.

phantom13 said:
I mean there is you just wanna discount it cause it doesnt suit your narrative. Literally beat a prelim finalist, a grand finallist another finallist and scored heavily in the last 8 weeks of the year, when we had some players back from injury.
Click to expand...
No, you've had it shown to you that Sydney won 1 game(against the Roos) from 7 and you're clamoring onto your win against them in this period like it means you're going somewhere, ontop of making out like Carlton weren't the walking wounded.
In the last 10 games of 2024 St Kilda were below the leage average for goals scored, and you played 3 of the bottom 4 teams.

phantom13 said:
As above but add in that this year we 6 kids in the draft. Including 2 in the 3rd round. Id also note that we shedded Seb Ross, Brad Crouch, Jack Hayes, Riley Bonnar, Tim Membrey. Turning over the list and playing alot of kids. Additionally your magic solution to this was trade Cooper Sharman who is 24 and an emerging key forward for a third rounder whilst also openly admitting that even if we traded 2 time AA Jack Steele we wouldnt get much for him anyway.

Frankly your lack of knowledge about not only what were doing but how were doing it really shows when you expand your points, its to be expected i wouldnt suggest i know much about the hawks kids and list strategy.

You seem to think the FA strategy is the only one weve got and thats just wrong, were doing both with the focus being on the draft. Now youll retort we need higher picks but again, the only way to do that is tank. Cull or trade our good players for picks or just play shit, there is literally no other way to get picks in the top 5, but you also dont want us to tank... or so you say.

Now to be clear, and god knows ive wasted way too much time and effort in this thread the last few days, the plan MIGHT NOT WORK, hell it probably wont work, only one team can win it each year BUT if you know anything about our list and gaemplan and everything else you would know that this plan makes far, far more sense than your suggestion.

You and most oppo supporters dont know a Sharman from a Schoenmakers so of course you wouldnt have the foggiest how we should go about it but ****ed if you dont wanna play expert on the subject while proving over and over you dont know a thing about the Saints in 24.
Click to expand...
You've taken 5 first rounders, which is a good start, but you've not taken them at the pointy end of the draft and at this stage none of them look like being generational talents, which most flag challenging sides have at least 1 or 2 of.

In order to take that many draft picks and see an imediate benefit you need them all to come on strong and you need some later ones to surprise.

Saints need more talent, end of story. Remains to be seen if the recent draftees will lift you out of no mans land, or if you bounce around 12-6 for the next 5 years before rebuilding again.
 
Bill Crouse said:
I don't think any team would give up a 2nd round pick for Sharman, and I say that as a big fan of his (actually maybe Essendon would after they saw his best first hand). Draft picks are always a gamble, there are plenty of top 10 picks who have been busts, so a pick in the 30-50 range is even more uncertain.
Chances are with your suggestion we draft a player who is delisted after a couple of games, or maybe a player who is about the level Sharman is now in about 4 years. Sure, there is a small chance we draft a gun, but it is ultimately a stupid idea, similar to going to the casino and putting it all on black to get the club out of debt.
Click to expand...
You aren't forced to take that pick to the draft, it can/could be used for any number of trades to get a better outcome.

Add it to another pick, push up the draft, trade into the first round, trade into next year.
 

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Strapping Young Lad said:
You made finals with the 12th hardest draw. I’ve already pointed this out to you.


No, you've had it shown to you that Sydney won 1 game(against the Roos) from 7 and you're clamoring onto your win against them in this period like it means you're going somewhere, ontop of making out like Carlton weren't the walking wounded.
In the last 10 games of 2024 St Kilda were below the leage average for goals scored, and you played 3 of the bottom 4 teams.


You've taken 5 first rounders, which is a good start, but you've not taken them at the pointy end of the draft and at this stage none of them look like being generational talents, which most flag challenging sides have at least 1 or 2 of.

In order to take that many draft picks and see an imediate benefit you need them all to come on strong and you need some later ones to surprise.

Saints need more talent, end of story. Remains to be seen if the recent draftees will lift you out of no mans land, or if you bounce around 12-6 for the next 5 years before rebuilding again.
Click to expand...
I just don’t agree with most of this but that’s fine.

A point to note, we made finals with the 12th hardest draw. Have you seen how our draw for 25 is rated?

10th hardest. So finals might not be that big a stretch. Make it and win one (feasible given finals and all that) and the whole, win a final, get an FA, build for 26 is right there.

Also you said again we’re not taking our first rounders at the pointy end… but we shouldn’t tank… and we can’t trade our players for high end draft picks cause there all shit… so remind what’s the solution here given you’re anti tanking?
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
You aren't forced to take that pick to the draft, it can/could be used for any number of trades to get a better outcome.

Add it to another pick, push up the draft, trade into the first round, trade into next year.
Click to expand...
this isn't FIFA, this is real life. Clubs wanted to push up this year. No one was willing to slip down
 
phantom13 said:
I just don’t agree with most of this but that’s fine.

A point to note, we made finals with the 12th hardest draw. Have you seen how our draw for 25 is rated?

10th hardest. So finals might not be that big a stretch. Make it and win one (feasible given finals and all that) and the whole, win a final, get an FA, build for 26 is right there.

Also you said again we’re not taking our first rounders at the pointy end… but we shouldn’t tank… and we can’t trade our players for high end draft picks cause there all shit… so remind what’s the solution here given you’re anti tanking?
Click to expand...
It’s called cutting the list, deep. I even gave you names.
 
phantom13 said:
Its funny, most oppo fans called Battle a loose third tall who wasnt that great... until he left.

Wilkie is out best defender, im not sure any team can really boast a player who will beat up on Jezza, hes a star, you rely on halving the contests and the system cause one on one hes beating everyone.

Ive listed like 5 guys who should all produce more. King SHOULD, Butler, Owens, Sharman, Henry all should. We have a multitude of plans. This is EXACTLY what im talking about.
Click to expand...
That is true. Battle was no good at St. Kilda but now is A grade without even playing a game at Hawthorn. You can’t make this shit up!
 

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Roast St Kilda in no mans land

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