Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[phantom13]

No, it’s not trolly at all.

This poster claims that Saint Kilda want to emulate Geelong and the Swans, and I’ve asked them how they would do that?

Unless you speak for all Saints fans, I am inclined to ask specific posters to make their own point.
I’ll respond to your post when I have more time.

Yeh it’s been done, a lot, I don’t have to speak for all when most have explained this aspect and it’s pretty obvious.

Build your core from the draft and top off with FAs by being a long term successful club.

We don’t have Geelong lifestyle and we don’t have Sydney’s academies but that’s not the aspect we’re trying to emulate.

Reply or don’t, I’ve articulated the vision you think we should have done it differently. It’s all pretty redundant at this point.

 

[L_W_P]

This is the most balanced post I’ve read and I 100% agree with your sentiments.

I found it odd that the saints drafted 3 defenders with their first 3 picks in the draft this year despite their defence being so highly regarded by saints fans. Why do you think the saints didn’t take any mids?

If you read up on those 3 players you'll find that they offer far more than being 3 defenders.

Travaglia played on ball. Just like Lindsay and Allan.
Tauru can play just about anywhere. A lot of speculation he's going to be playing forward for us.
Barrat ave over 2 goals a game as a forward for most of the season before being swung to the backline.

Everyone was taking Tauru in that spot. There wasn't a clearer standout left on the board.

You could maybe argue taking Xav Lindsay over Travaglia but it's much a muchness, positionally.

There wasn't a standout 'Pick Me' mid left on the board at the Barrat pick.

Not sure which mids you think we should have taken though.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

The best part of the Saints build is putting out their best team and fighting tooth and claw to get over the line at the last second against Carltons VFL team in rd 24. That bumped them up two spots on the ladder giving them picks 7&8 to attack the draft instead of picks 5&6

Could have taken Smillie and Langford finally bringing in some elite midfield talent they've been crying out for for an eternity.

 

[EconomicDecline]

No, it’s not trolly at all.

This poster claims that Saint Kilda want to emulate Geelong and the Swans, and I’ve asked them how they would do that?

Unless you speak for all Saints fans, I am inclined to ask specific posters to make their own point.
I’ll respond to your post when I have more time.

Emulating their list management strategy. Are you dense or just obtuse?

 

[RonnieRaven]

I thought saints were as the title says a couple years ago and worried for them but I’ve been impressed with the talent they have brought in the last two years.

 

[phantom13]

The best part of the Saints build is putting out their best team and fighting tooth and claw to get over the line at the last second against Carltons VFL team in rd 24. That bumped them up two spots on the ladder giving them picks 7&8 to attack the draft instead of picks 5&6

Could have taken Smillie and Langford finally bringing in some elite midfield talent they've been crying out for for an eternity.

I can assure you it was well worth it to watch all the blues supporters pissing their pants for a few hours.

Neither of us has won a ****ing thing for a long time so we gotta take the little wins where we can.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Max King wouldn't be in the top 5 young key talls in the game let alone the most talented since Curnow. Darcy, Amiss, Treacy, Naughton, Cadman, Walter... King is an absolute headcase and the Saints play better without him.

Macrae doesn't shift the needle whatsoever in your midfield. Bottom 4 in the AFL for quality and heavily carried by Marshall.

Saints list is simply put, B grade at best.

The best part of the Saints build is putting out their best team and fighting tooth and claw to get over the line at the last second against Carltons VFL team in rd 24. That bumped them up two spots on the ladder giving them picks 7&8 to attack the draft instead of picks 5&6

Could have taken Smillie and Langford finally bringing in some elite midfield talent they've been crying out for for an eternity.

Cripps, Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Walsh, De Konig, Docherty, etc

How long again has Carlton had this star studded lineup? Most at least a decade. And they've only managed to make finals twice (barely scrapping in this year) whilst these guys have been on the list. As many times as St Kilda have. And yet time and again for the better part of a decade it's been claimed Saints have a worst list. And yet we've made finals as many times and have had a better average win rate and ladder position.

The point being made is the list balance that fits the coaches game style is more important than a having a third of your best 22 being elite followed by GOP's and spuds. St Kilda is building towards that and also having a succession plan with the likes of Enright.

 

[L_W_P]

The best part of the Saints build is putting out their best team and fighting tooth and claw to get over the line at the last second against Carltons VFL team in rd 24. That bumped them up two spots on the ladder giving them picks 7&8 to attack the draft instead of picks 5&6

Could have taken Smillie and Langford finally bringing in some elite midfield talent they've been crying out for for an eternity.

Would we though?

Probably would have picked up one of them but every chance we still would have taken Tauru given our lack of quality KPP depth. We are at the point of talking about Caminiti playing FB as we really only have Howard and Cordy as KPDs on the list with Wilkie being undersized.

That said; Our B Grade team ave 49 I50 last year from 364 possessions. That's one I50 per 7.4 possessions.

Carlton's team, with Cripps having the GOAT Brownlow season + Walsh, Cerra, TDK etc ave 51.7 I50 from 359 possessions. That's one I50 per 6.9 possessions.

SO Carlton's star studded team only fractionally outperformed the Saints bottom 4 squad last year. And I'm not even denying that the Saints midfield stinks. Plenty of work can be done to improve it.

The biggest issue for the Saints though is conversion once the ball is inside 50.

Top teams have stars in the front half that can pile the score on, even with limited chances.

The Saints don't have that yet. It's King, Higgins and then not much at all in terms of scoring power.

That seemed to slowly evolve towards the end of 2024 but I'll be keen to see how we incorporate the return of King and Henry, along with possibly Tauru, into that mix in 2025.

If the Saints can make more of those I50 entries then a climb back up the ladder is certainly possible.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Would we though?

Probably would have picked up one of them but every chance we still would have taken Tauru given our lack of quality KPP depth. We are at the point of talking about Caminiti playing FB as we really only have Howard and Cordy as KPDs on the list with Wilkie being undersized.

That said; Our B Grade team ave 49 I50 last year from 364 possessions. That's one I50 per 7.4 possessions.

Carlton's team, with Cripps having the GOAT Brownlow season + Walsh, Cerra, TDK etc ave 51.7 I50 from 359 possessions. That's one I50 per 6.9 possessions.

SO Carlton's star studded team only fractionally outperformed the Saints bottom 4 squad last year. And I'm not even denying that the Saints midfield stinks. Plenty of work can be done to improve it.

The biggest issue for the Saints though is conversion once the ball is inside 50.

Top teams have stars in the front half that can pile the score on, even with limited chances.

The Saints don't have that yet. It's King, Higgins and then not much at all in terms of scoring power.

That seemed to slowly evolve towards the end of 2024 but I'll be keen to see how we incorporate the return of King and Henry, along with possibly Tauru, into that mix in 2025.

If the Saints can make more of those I50 entries then a climb back up the ladder is certainly possible.

Cripps, Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Walsh, De Konig, Docherty, etc

How long again has Carlton had this star studded lineup? Most at least a decade. And they've only managed to make finals twice (barely scrapping in this year) whilst these guys have been on the list. As many times as St Kilda have. And yet time and again for the better part of a decade it's been claimed Saints have a worst list. And yet we've made finals as many times and have had a better average win rate and ladder position.

The point being made is the list balance that fits the coaches game style is more important than a having a third of your best 22 being elite followed by GOP's and spuds. St Kilda is building towards that and also having a succession plan with the likes of Enright.

Is this thread about Carltons list or St Kilda's? Blues have been a rabble for the better part of 2 decades, I don't deny it... But the Saints are in perennial no mans land by consistently throwing away any chance they have to hit the pointy end of the draft by trying to be heroes in the last month of every season when their seasons already cooked.

Then bringing in B/C graders like Dow, Stocker, Carroll, Macrae to try and miraculously fix the midfield... It's uninspiring to say the least.

 

[L_W_P]

Is this thread about Carltons list or St Kilda's? Blues have been a rabble for the better part of 2 decades, I don't deny it... But the Saints are in perennial no mans land by consistently throwing away any chance they have to hit the pointy end of the draft by trying to be heroes in the last month of every season when their seasons already cooked.

Then bringing in B/C graders like Dow, Stocker, Carroll, Macrae to try and miraculously fix the midfield... It's uninspiring to say the least.

Sure but to say that we 'missed out' a week after the draft is silly.

Really the only change losing that game would have made is that we might have one of Langford or Smillie instead of Travaglia. Given the club has already earmarked Trav to play as a midfielder, we aren't any worse off positionally.

We could argue talent all day long but it's impossible to say right now.

Aaron Francis and Sam Weiderman were both taken ahead of Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow. I doubt anyone at Carlton would be upset at 'missing out' on those picks.

As for bringing in B graders; Literally every club does that. The Lions just replaced Joe Daniher with 32yo Sam Day. Why not go after an A Grader? Carlton brought in Nick Haynes. Why not pay for Houston?

Sometimes the opportunity to land A Grade talent isn't there.

We will go hard at LDU, Brayshaw and a few others at the end of 2025.

Right now we're a 7-12 rank team, depending on the day. Take our chances and we might upset a few teams in 2025 but the core group of kids that the club are putting together is pretty exciting for the future.

 

[Elixuh]

If you read up on those 3 players you'll find that they offer far more than being 3 defenders.

Travaglia played on ball. Just like Lindsay and Allan.
Tauru can play just about anywhere. A lot of speculation he's going to be playing forward for us.
Barrat ave over 2 goals a game as a forward for most of the season before being swung to the backline.

Everyone was taking Tauru in that spot. There wasn't a clearer standout left on the board.

You could maybe argue taking Xav Lindsay over Travaglia but it's much a muchness, positionally.

There wasn't a standout 'Pick Me' mid left on the board at the Barrat pick.

Not sure which mids you think we should have taken though.

It was just a question not an accusation. I agree with your and the other guys explanation.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Firstly you absolutely said that we should do one over the other, my point is that if our list profile and on field best 22 (25 ish) looks something similar to those teams then why would we try to bottom out rather than top up?

Check what I have underlined.

I absolutely said that I think you should have prioritized the draft, and bottomed out, to get elite mids.

Not that “you need to bottom out to win flags”. That’s a different argument.

You dont compete with anyone at the draft but short of Harley Reid youre also not guaranteed to get the best player with a higher pick are you? We took Billings over Bont (which was the correct call at the time) and that was a failure.

I think you might he on your own there.
Sure you’re not guaranteed the best player, but you give yourself the best chance to get them with the earlier pick. That’s undeniable.

Youre suggesting we should tank, really, because were not that bad, to get a better draft pick which guarantees nothing and goes against the clubs assesment of its list and position.



Said as naseum we have an excellent defensive unit with 2 genuine stars in Wilkie and Sinclair coupled with argurably the best young defender in the game in Nasiah. We have Max King, probably the most talented tall forward since Charlie Curnow with some very talented if inconsistent natural forwards around him. Even our midfield, the main area of weakness, isnt horrible with Macrae coming in. Youre completely ignoring the assets weve got because you believe the bottom out is the better way. Thats fine, but its not fact.

No, I’m not suggesting to tank. I’m suggesting that Saints would be better suited to prioritize the top end of the draft than to top up or put their hand in for FA’s.

Sure you can do both, but it does seem like you’re more invested in one than the other at the moment and I think Saints might ultimately have it backwards in hindsight.

Said as naseum we have an excellent defensive unit with 2 genuine stars in Wilkie and Sinclair coupled with argurably the best young defender in the game in Nasiah. We have Max King, probably the most talented tall forward since Charlie Curnow with some very talented if inconsistent natural forwards around him. Even our midfield, the main area of weakness, isnt horrible with Macrae coming in. Youre completely ignoring the assets weve got because you believe the bottom out is the better way. Thats fine, but it’s not fact.

I’m not ignoring the assets you’ve got, what I am suggesting is that they are no greater than any other team that you will be competing with to try and get into the top 8 at this stage, arguably they are lesser.

In terms of your list, its fair, no argument although stability and culture are improving quite clearly and whilst the lifestyle advantage isnt Geelongs Melbournes south eastern Bayside is one of the most desirable locations to live (noting i live in the west so whatever right) a fact weve made no secret of wanting to tap into.

Bayside isn’t locked off to just Saints though. Richmond, Collingwood, Hawthorn and Melbourne could all lay claim to being close enough to live in Bayside suburbs and have players and staff already doing so.

If were targeting FAs against you and the pies and Carlton and ONLY leaning on your list were ****ed, no doubt, but we can offer more money, we can offer the culture and the list and the coach and the facilities.

Almost all clubs can offer this though. I just don’t see the point of difference that Saints have that would put them at the front of the queue for any players.

It might not work, we might not win every FA race but weve only gotta win one dont we?

Sure it might not, and if it doesn’t you’re at risk of not seeing the uplift that you want to see.

Lets say next year LDU and Brayshaw both explore FA and weve just finished 6th and won a final. Max kicked 60, Steele and Macrae looked great together and Pou showed signs of being a genuine game winner. NAS and Wilson make the AA 40 and Roma, Wilkie, King and Sincs get blazers. Were getting 40k at Marvel every week and sold out a home final against your lot at the G and we throw $1.8-2m for 8 at both of them and you and the other top flight clubs can only offer $1.4m over 5.

Are you SURE you beat us for that signature?

Granted its a hypothetical but thats the vision and its not impossible.

Sorry, but at this point I don’t see much if any of that happening. I think it’s a very big longshot, not something you should he planning for as a consequence, and I think that unfortunately for Saints you’re really up against it when competing for players against bigger clubs with better stability, marquee games, better culture and a recent history of success.

Which again, all comes back to why I think Saints should really prioritize the draft and bring a bunch of top end picks in and up together.

That’s not to say that you don’t have some highly talented kids, but it remains to be seen if you have enough of them, and if they are talented enough to really propel you up the ladder.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Emulating their list management strategy. Are you dense or just obtuse?

I’m not dense enough to think that you just emulate two clubs who have very clear advantages which plays directly into how they attract players and manage their list.

Put your fingers in your ears if you like, but you don’t have the geographical advantage the either Swans or Geelong have, don’t have the winning culture, don’t have the off-field stability, don’t have the academy that Swans have…. But sure, “we can emulate the Geelong and Swans list management styles, because we can offer lots of money…maybe…”.

 

[jumperfan]

Based on your previous responses you won’t take this well, but imo the saints for next year are only clearly better than Richmond, wce, north and probably Essendon. You may be on par with Melbourne depending on a few things. Otherwise I can’t see how you’re close to the other 12 teams.

How do you see it?

Surely you can't believe this after how close this season was?

I’ve found the one reasonable saints fan who understands the list build for the next flag! Couldn’t agree more. You’re going to get thumb downed by Phantom, but I think you’re on the money.

Funny how the “only reasonable one” is the brand new account that happens to agree exactly with what you said…

 

[Yoda_]

rather than this thread become a pissing contest, stick to the topic at hand


St.Kilda have always struck me as playing it safe. Not putting there neck out. A few teams with little success seem to not want to take that next step for the ultimate glory.


If Saints can manage to develop 3 - 5 very good to elite talents then they could have a seriously good side. The bones are there, they just need to not over rely on the same few guys that those mid table teams do

 

[EconomicDecline]

Is this thread about Carltons list or St Kilda's? Blues have been a rabble for the better part of 2 decades, I don't deny it... But the Saints are in perennial no mans land by consistently throwing away any chance they have to hit the pointy end of the draft by trying to be heroes in the last month of every season when their seasons already cooked.

Then bringing in B/C graders like Dow, Stocker, Carroll, Macrae to try and miraculously fix the midfield... It's uninspiring to say the least.

Because you can’t analyse a club in a vacuum. You compare them to their peers. The media has created that narrative Carlton as potential premiers for many years, which BF users have generally followed along blindly. And yet each year they fail miserably. St Kilda have been supposed cellar dwellers in the same time but have made finals or just fallen short by a game or 2 for 5 years straight. The false narratives seem to persist contrary to reality.

So yeah. Enjoy the hype the talking heads will give you and watch that go nowhere. Meanwhile we’ll quietly plug along and be doing just as well. All the AA, Brownlow and Coleman medalists have shown not to move the needle.

 

[phantom13]

rather than this thread become a pissing contest, stick to the topic at hand


St.Kilda have always struck me as playing it safe. Not putting there neck out. A few teams with little success seem to not want to take that next step for the ultimate glory.


If Saints can manage to develop 3 - 5 very good to elite talents then they could have a seriously good side. The bones are there, they just need to not over rely on the same few guys that those mid table teams do

I agree with this and I think the current plan is a lot bolder than the expected “tank and go to the draft”.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Because you can’t analyse a club in a vacuum. You compare them to their peers. The media has created that narrative Carlton as potential premiers for many years, which BF users have generally followed along blindly. And yet each year they fail miserably. St Kilda have been supposed cellar dwellers in the same time but have made finals or just fallen short by a game or 2 for 5 years straight. The false narratives seem to persist contrary to reality.

So yeah. Enjoy the hype the talking heads will give you and watch that go nowhere. Meanwhile we’ll quietly plug along and be doing just as well. All the AA, Brownlow and Coleman medalists have shown not to move the needle.

Saints are in definitive no man's land.

Miss or scrape into finals, get flogged, miss out on the elite talent of the draft, complain about a lack of star power in the midfield, go again the next year... Rinse and repeat.

Blues have the talent to contend, their issues are due to other factors. Even still at least we made a prelim last year. Saints list is in all sorts a long with the rest of their club.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

You hang sh1t on them for winning a game but had they lost that match, you still would be hanging sh1t on them for doing so - damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I'm all for dissecting the Saints woes and poor administrative decisions but poo-pooing them winning a game ??

You are a prize bellend ............ STFU and stop embarrassing other Carlton supporters.

Same was said about North losing out on Harley Reid in some meaningless game to finish the season. When ur seasons been over for 3/4 the year winning a dead rubber game at the end of the year and missing out that big in the draft can set a club back years.

If Smillie and Langford come on as explosive, big bodied mids like they project to and the Saints have Travaglia and Tauru sitting down in defense with a poor midfield ahead of them that game will be rued for years to come.

Unfortunately thats just reality.

 

[BrutThough]

Same was said about North losing out on Harley Reid in some meaningless game to finish the season. When ur seasons been over for 3/4 the year winning a dead rubber game at the end of the year and missing out that big in the draft can set a club back years.

If Smillie and Langford come on as explosive, big bodied mids like they project to and the Saints have Travaglia and Tauru sitting down in defense with a poor midfield ahead of them that game will be rued for years to come.

Unfortunately thats just reality.

That's a lot of ifs you are holding onto there.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

The best part of the Saints build is putting out their best team and fighting tooth and claw to get over the line at the last second against Carltons VFL team in rd 24. That bumped them up two spots on the ladder giving them picks 7&8 to attack the draft instead of picks 5&6

Could have taken Smillie and Langford finally bringing in some elite midfield talent they've been crying out for for an eternity.

Better to win then to lose.

Wanting to lose to get better draft picks kills clubs culture and careers.

Play to win games not draft picks

 

[phantom13]

Check what I have underlined.

I absolutely said that I think you should have prioritized the draft, and bottomed out, to get elite mids.

Not that “you need to bottom out to win flags”. That’s a different argument.


I think you might he on your own there.
Sure you’re not guaranteed the best player, but you give yourself the best chance to get them with the earlier pick. That’s undeniable.



No, I’m not suggesting to tank. I’m suggesting that Saints would be better suited to prioritize the top end of the draft than to top up or put their hand in for FA’s.

Sure you can do both, but it does seem like you’re more invested in one than the other at the moment and I think Saints might ultimately have it backwards in hindsight.



I’m not ignoring the assets you’ve got, what I am suggesting is that they are no greater than any other team that you will be competing with to try and get into the top 8 at this stage, arguably they are lesser.


Bayside isn’t locked off to just Saints though. Richmond, Collingwood, Hawthorn and Melbourne could all lay claim to being close enough to live in Bayside suburbs and have players and staff already doing so.


Almost all clubs can offer this though. I just don’t see the point of difference that Saints have that would put them at the front of the queue for any players.


Sure it might not, and if it doesn’t you’re at risk of not seeing the uplift that you want to see.


Sorry, but at this point I don’t see much if any of that happening. I think it’s a very big longshot, not something you should he planning for as a consequence, and I think that unfortunately for Saints you’re really up against it when competing for players against bigger clubs with better stability, marquee games, better culture and a recent history of success.

Which again, all comes back to why I think Saints should really prioritize the draft and bring a bunch of top end picks in and up together.

That’s not to say that you don’t have some highly talented kids, but it remains to be seen if you have enough of them, and if they are talented enough to really propel you up the ladder.

I mean you made the point that the Hawks jump was visible based on some back end of 23 form and big scalps but the EXACT same scenario with a prelim and grand finalist win just dont count for some arbitrary reason.

Ultimately you and I have a difference of opinion in what the better strategy for success with our current list would be, the major difference i can see is you want us to tank without wanting us to tank...

No, I’m not suggesting to tank. I’m suggesting that Saints would be better suited to prioritize the top end of the draft

Its not like we are trading out our first round picks for established players.
21- Nas, 22 - Philipou, 23 - Wilson, 24 - Travag and Tauru. All first round picks.

So I think what you ACTUALLY want us to do is tank for higher first round picks, cause as it stands weve picked our first rounders according to where weve finished and id argue that for 21, 22 and 23 weve scooped not just best available but top 5 talent every year. Only Nas would really be debateable and thats because that draft had Darcy, Horne Francis and Daicos (2 of whom we couldnt have drafted regardless of how hard we tanked).

As a question, what would you have done differently in 2024 given we made finals in 2023 (which no one is going to try and not do)?

 

[LordLucifer]

Same was said about North losing out on Harley Reid in some meaningless game to finish the season. When ur seasons been over for 3/4 the year winning a dead rubber game at the end of the year and missing out that big in the draft can set a club back years.

If Smillie and Langford come on as explosive, big bodied mids like they project to and the Saints have Travaglia and Tauru sitting down in defense with a poor midfield ahead of them that game will be rued for years to come.

Unfortunately thats just reality.

Stop back-pedalling and trying to justify your theory .........

You made a complete goose of yourself and its not the first time either.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Better to win then to lose.

Wanting to lose to get better draft picks kills clubs culture and careers.

Play to win games not draft picks

Play to win, yes... But Saints should have been blooding youngsters like Keeler, Garcia, Collard, Hastie etc and trying to win while getting games into them.

Season was well and truly over but Ross was wanting to play 'Grinch' having spuds like Zak Jones rolling around trying to get another contract.

Don't have to go out and deliberately lose a game, but the team you put out there in the back half of the year was absurd given a chance of finals was long behind you.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Stop back-pedalling and trying to justify your theory .........

You made a complete goose of yourself and its not the first time either.

Don't u normally reside in the bay or something after getting kicked off the Carlton board? Not sure I'd be calling anyone else a goose.