Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[SSSSSS]

Are you kidding? This has been done about 400 times.

Current/Vets
Steele, Macrae, Jones, Clark, Dow, Byrnes, Hill, Wood,

Emerging
Philipou, Wilson, Garcia, Windhager, Hall, Travaglia, Carroll, Boxshall

now AGAIN, we know its an area for improvement, Macrae bridges the development gap and hopefully improves us back to 2023 levels so we can compete for a high end FA midfielders (LDU and Brayshaw). Its not the finished product but weve got plan a - be competitive and improve enough to secure an FA and plan b - Internal development, Wilson and Pou in particular look like they could be absolute superstars.

Wilkie doesn't get paid enough for having to clean up after that paper thin midfield.

 

[phantom13]

Wilkie doesn't get paid enough for having to clean up after that paper thin midfield.

Im certainly not gonna pretend its elite but it does have 2 multiple AA guys in it now. Its not great, its arguable not even good but it should be competitive which AGAIN, is all part of the plan.

 

[SSSSSS]

Im certainly not gonna pretend its elite but it does have 2 multiple AA guys in it now. Its not great, its arguable not even good but it should be competitive which AGAIN, is all part of the plan.

If not for Richmond nuking their list it's probably the worst midfield in the league.

On paper at least. Luckily games aren't won on paper.

 

[BrutThough]

Actually, I listen to the report on seven news where they described it as a drastic shake up.

Saints fans are trying to convince me that it’s not a drastic shake up and it’s completely normal for every line
coach to change roles, and maybe that’s true or maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

And don’t do this ‘you’re having a mare here thing’ just because I don’t agree that everything is fine and dandy.

Well if Ch7 said it was drastic...

I mean, I've never seen or know of a media outlet to be hyperbolic before.

 

[phantom13]

If not for Richmond nuking their list it's probably the worst midfield in the league.

On paper at least. Luckily games aren't won on paper.

Its better than Norths (mind you they will be ****ing unbeatable if they can keep that group together).

Adelaide, West Coast, Essendon and Geelong i reckon were similar too on paper in 2025.

At the very least its got some balance, we had nothing to win contested ball outside of Steele this year. Macrae adresses that and Garcia looks nice and neat in tight.

Again, no one is trying to argue its good, were aiming for competitive while the kids develop and we chase an FA, if were just gonna sit here and shit on the midfield its a pointless conversation cause no one is arguing against it being shit.

 

[Murraj1966]

Saints have 20 players on their list 21 or under.

That's a young list.

Nooooo the saints are an old doo doo list and need a rebuild despite turning over more than half the list since 2021

Haven’t you been reading the increasingly terrible thread?!

 

[SSSSSS]

Its better than Norths (mind you they will be ****ing unbeatable if they can keep that group together).

Adelaide, West Coast, Essendon and Geelong i reckon were similar too on paper in 2025.

At the very least its got some balance, we had nothing to win contested ball outside of Steele this year. Macrae adresses that and Garcia looks nice and neat in tight.

Again, no one is trying to argue its good, were aiming for competitive while the kids develop and we chase an FA, if were just gonna sit here and shit on the midfield its a pointless conversation cause no one is arguing against it being shit.

North has 2x genuine A grade mids in LDU and Sheezel. Wardlaw and Powell the next cabs of the rank I'd say are at worst on par with 2024 Macrae (in fact I'd say based on performances last year were better but Macrae didn't exactly get the best run).

I'm being generous to consider Steele one but he's on a level below the two above.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Wouldn't hire buddy franklin to coach an AFL line, and thats not my point

Robert Harvey has been let go by 3 teams, no matter how you spin it

Whilst he is a legendary player, doesn't mean he is an exceptional coach, and being overlooked so many times for senior roles is an example of that

Hawthorn also got rid of him as a mids coach, as have other clubs

Coaches reach their use by date, just because he is a club legend, doesn't mean you have to give him a job

Let go by 2. Won an assistant coach of the year award.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Weve listed the next gen mids a stack of times, youve said you dont like them, thats fair, im not gonna argue a subjective point over and over again, we can agree to disagree.

The point im making is that SYL is, really, advocating for a slash of the list, which is just tanking, trade out basically all the experience for cents on the dollar and then magic a stack of shit late picks into top 5 picks. Its fairytale shit.

Alternately hes advocating for trading out our quality (which he doesnt rate anyway) for top 5 picks which is just straight up tanking by anyones definition.

Your bolded point is a point that literally all bar a few saints supporters absolutely agree with, its also EXACTLY what were already doing.

I think ultimately its fine to me for oppo fans to see the plan were very clearly following and think it wont work because we dont have the quality or whatever (ala the bolded). Thats fine, our history and the fact that its a risk (noting literally any other plan will also have risk) are fair criticisms.

Its entirely different to state the EXACT plan were already following and claim its not what were doing.

Its just stupid to say cut your list hard and get top 5 picks but dont tank to do it. What else is that called?

Hawthorn have literally given you a very recent example of what to do that wasn’t tanking, when we traded away our two experienced mids O’meara and Mitchell, paying their contracts to do so. We didn’t get 1st round picks for either player, but the late picks we did get were used for a bunch of moves to improve the list( trade up for Weddle, land Meek and match a bid on McCabe).

That wasn’t taking, it was shrewd list management but I guess the major difference is that Hawthorn actually identified that it had young midfielders that could take over(Day, Newcombe and Worpel) so it made the call and backed them in, whereas it’s become pretty obvious that St Kilda want to go about it more slowly, and probably don’t have the same belief in youngsters to be able to make hard calls on senior players.

Saints still could have cut the list harder though, offered up contracted players, told clubs that they’d even pay some salary. No one ever said you need to trade away players to get Pick 5, that’s just a dumb argument that I’ve never made.

Saints haven’t cut the list deep and if you’re to be believed they won’t going forward.
It doesn’t bother me a great deal if they do or not, but as all my posts will show I certainly agree with the premise of the thread that the Saints are a bit half pregnant at the moment and could have made some other moves to fast track the rebuild.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Let go by 2. Won an assistant coach of the year award.

11 years ago

 

[phantom13]

North has 2x genuine A grade mids in LDU and Sheezel. Wardlaw and Powell the next cabs of the rank I'd say are at worst on par with 2024 Macrae (in fact I'd say based on performances last year were better but Macrae didn't exactly get the best run).

I'm being generous to consider Steele one but he's on a level below the two above.

Thats fine, but as it stands LDU isnt AA and neither is Sheezel, Steele and Macrae both are and neither is over the hill. Steele is 28, with a decent pre season and injury free there is no reason to think he doesnt get back to his best. Macrae is 30 but pretty fresh, he had a 30 touch 1 goal game earlier this year. The group and strcuture of that dogs team pushed him out, theres no shame in that they have an elite midfield group.

Again, if they keep that group together (big big ****ing if) that group will be absolutely unbeatable, i watched them live this year and IMO Wardlaw is actually the best of the bunch.

Youre speculating about development as much as im speculating about return to form but on 2025 id say Norths midfield is too young to be as good as they could be.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Not the case at all

Hence why Harvey was critical of Hawthorn's mids post job to some St Kilda media personality types

Check, but I couldn't care if you don't believe me, its fact

Harvey to depart the Hawks

The official AFL website of the Hawthorn Football Club

www.hawthornfc.com.au

Robert Harvey will depart Hawthorn after accepting an assistant coaching role at St Kilda.

After joining the club at the end of last season, Harvey was tasked with developing Hawthorn’s midfield group.

In farewelling Harvey, Head of Football Rob McCartney thanked him for his contribution to the brown and gold.

“Since walking through the doors at our football club, Harvs has shown a great ability to connect with his players and fellow coaches," McCartney said.

“In recent days we have had an open and honest conversation about Harvs’ desire to return to his former club given the changes that have occurred there.

“We would like to acknowledge Harvs’ service to club and wish him well for the future as he returns to his former club in St Kilda.”

Initiated by Harvey. Hawthorn didn't kick him out. Literally your head of football is saying as such.

 

[EconomicDecline]

11 years ago

You literally said:

Whilst he is a legendary player, doesn't mean he is an exceptional coach, and being overlooked so many times for senior roles is an example of that

If you win a coaching award it must mean you are terrible at coaching.

award [noun] a prize or other mark of recognition given in honour of an achievement

Hawthorn supporter logic in this thread.

 

[jumperfan]

Hawthorn have literally given you a very recent example of what to do that wasn’t tanking, when we traded away our two experienced mids O’meara and Mitchell, paying their contracts to do so. We didn’t get 1st round picks for either player, but the late picks we did get were used for a bunch of moves to improve the list( trade up for Weddle, land Meek and match a bid on McCabe).

That wasn’t taking, it was shrewd list management but I guess the major difference is that Hawthorn actually identified that it had young midfielders that could take over(Day, Newcombe and Worpel) so it made the call and backed them in, whereas it’s become pretty obvious that St Kilda want to go about it more slowly, and probably don’t have the same belief in youngsters to be able to make hard calls on senior players.

Saints still could have cut the list harder though, offered up contracted players, told clubs that they’d even pay some salary. No one ever said you need to trade away players to get Pick 5, that’s just a dumb argument that I’ve never made.

Saints haven’t cut the list deep and if you’re to be believed they won’t going forward.
It doesn’t bother me a great deal if they do or not, but as all my posts will show I certainly agree with the premise of the thread that the Saints are a bit half pregnant at the moment and could have made some other moves to fast track the rebuild.

What are you considering a "deep list cut"? We've cut half the guys who were on the list in 2022 at the end of Ratten's tenure. That seems quite deep to me.

 

[phantom13]

Hawthorn have literally given you a very recent example of what to do that wasn’t tanking, when we traded away our two experienced mids O’meara and Mitchell, paying their contracts to do so. We didn’t get 1st round picks for either player, but the late picks we did get were used for a bunch of moves to improve the list( trade up for Weddle, land Meek and match a bid on McCabe).

That wasn’t taking, it was shrewd list management but I guess the major difference is that Hawthorn actually identified that it had young midfielders that could take over(Day, Newcombe and Worpel) so it made the call and backed them in, whereas it’s become pretty obvious that St Kilda want to go about it more slowly, and probably don’t have the same belief in youngsters to be able to make hard calls on senior players.

Saints still could have cut the list harder though, offered up contracted players, told clubs that they’d even pay some salary. No one ever said you need to trade away players to get Pick 5, that’s just a dumb argument that I’ve never made.

Saints haven’t cut the list deep and if you’re to be believed they won’t going forward.
It doesn’t bother me a great deal if they do or not, but as all my posts will show I certainly agree with the premise of the thread that the Saints are a bit half pregnant at the moment and could have made some other moves to fast track the rebuild.

You mean basically what we did with Battle, which was shrewd and did actually net us a first rounder. Otherwise all you did was bail out on previous poor contract decisions, we dont have to because we havent made too many (at least since Hannebery).

You mean like the midfield weve identified to take us forward (Pou, Wilson, Windy the kids weve just drafted)

You want us to cut harder and offer up Jones, Howard and Sharman. One of which would completely **** our backline and two of which will get us **** all.

We have cut the list deep you just dont want to acknowledge it.

Half pregnant, or in the middle of the rebuild? Theyre sort of one and the same depending how you wanna view it. Youre pessimistic about the potential of our kids, thats fair, i just really dont see how we could have cut harder and gotten better picks without just tanking and frankly youve presented absolutely no viable alternative that we didnt already do.

Probably easiest to just agree to disagree at this point.

 

[BrutThough]

Hawthorn have literally given you a very recent example of what to do that wasn’t tanking, when we traded away our two experienced mids O’meara and Mitchell, paying their contracts to do so. We didn’t get 1st round picks for either player, but the late picks we did get were used for a bunch of moves to improve the list( trade up for Weddle, land Meek and match a bid on McCabe).

That wasn’t taking, it was shrewd list management but I guess the major difference is that Hawthorn actually identified that it had young midfielders that could take over(Day, Newcombe and Worpel) so it made the call and backed them in, whereas it’s become pretty obvious that St Kilda want to go about it more slowly, and probably don’t have the same belief in youngsters to be able to make hard calls on senior players.

Saints still could have cut the list harder though, offered up contracted players, told clubs that they’d even pay some salary. No one ever said you need to trade away players to get Pick 5, that’s just a dumb argument that I’ve never made.

Saints haven’t cut the list deep and if you’re to be believed they won’t going forward.
It doesn’t bother me a great deal if they do or not, but as all my posts will show I certainly agree with the premise of the thread that the Saints are a bit half pregnant at the moment and could have made some other moves to fast track the rebuild.

All Hawthorn have done is play in 1 finals series. Saints did that 12 months ago. What makes Hawthorn this incredible blueprint that other clubs should be following?

Who says you dont fall back out of the 8 next season just like Saints did this year, or Freo did the season before, or Essendon did after making finals in 2021, or Saints again after 2020?

There is actually nothing at this point yet to prove your list management strategy was superior or something every club should be following. For all we know at this point, you may have already reached a peak with it.

 

[SSSSSS]

Harvey to depart the Hawks

The official AFL website of the Hawthorn Football Club

www.hawthornfc.com.au

Initiated by Harvey. Hawthorn didn't kick him out. Literally your head of football is saying as such.

He didn't like Sam. Sam didn't like him.

We didn't try very hard to keep him.

McCartney isn't exactly going to come out and slag Harvey off.

 

[phantom13]

Where did I say that?

You could have coached well 11 years ago, but by todays standards you are poor in comparison to others

Both can be true

Try again

To be fair the original article and comment wasnt really about whether Harves is good or not, it was about how much movement in the coaching ranks there was and how that shows were not going well.

That point has been pretty clearly proven wrong.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

To be fair the original article and comment wasnt really about whether Harves is good or not, it was about how much movement in the coaching ranks there was and how that shows were not going well.

That point has been pretty clearly proven wrong.

I think you will agree

I wasn't making that point

 

[BrutThough]

You are having a mare here

Harvey was not wanted

Il stick to talking to intelligent posters such as phantom13

He was not wanted, yet the deadline to renew coaching contracts is August 1st and you kept him on? And the only reason he changed jobs was because of an unforeseen coaching change that happened post trade period after coaching panels are usually set?

Strange way to move on someone.

 

[EconomicDecline]

You are having a mare here

Harvey was not wanted

Il stick to talking to intelligent posters such as phantom13

Funny. I had an article that backed my assertion. Where's yours?

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Funny. I had an article that backed my assertion. Where's yours?

You had a media release

Don't need one

I know what happened

 

[Elixuh]

Its better than Norths (mind you they will be ****ing unbeatable if they can keep that group together).

Adelaide, West Coast, Essendon and Geelong i reckon were similar too on paper in 2025.

At the very least its got some balance, we had nothing to win contested ball outside of Steele this year. Macrae adresses that and Garcia looks nice and neat in tight.

Again, no one is trying to argue its good, were aiming for competitive while the kids develop and we chase an FA, if were just gonna sit here and shit on the midfield its a pointless conversation cause no one is arguing against it being shit.

Norths midfield is better than yours. Comfortably.

North has a terrible defensive unit and very average forward line aside from Larky.

 

[EconomicDecline]

You had a media release

Don't need one

I know what happened

Oh cool. Unsubstantiated rumour.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

He was not wanted, yet the deadline to renew coaching contracts is August 1st and you kept him on? And the only reason he changed jobs was because of an unforeseen coaching change that happened post trade period after coaching panels are usually set?

Strange way to move on someone.

You saw a coach "leave" two days ago and you are this naïve to think that calls cant be made whenever the clubs want

Grow up, come with some realism