Star Wars Star Wars - General Discussion / Legends / Comics

[SM]

You're thinking of Star Wars as an event movie, I imagine Disney are thinking of Star Wars as a brand and a universe. Is Marvel diluted by the release of Black Panther, Infinity War, Ant-Man and Captain Marvel all within 12 months? No, because they are separate movies under the same brand. What Disney need to achieve is separating Star Wars from the Skywalker saga, which is what the current trilogy is seeking to do, so people can watch and enjoy multiple stories without thinking it's all part of the one Star Wars story.

If anything, they need less prequels and filling in the gaps, and more new characters and events that people come to think of Star Wars. Rogue One was a good starting point, the mistake was going to Solo next, when they should have set something new after ROTJ.

No, I completely understand that that's what they think, and I even clarified above that Star Wars is NOT like Marvel, and it's foolish of Disney to treat it as one.

Marvel is not diluted because each of their comics is its own individual brand within a larger Universe. Star Wars is the reverse case where you begin with a brand (Han-Luke-Leia) and then expand it (Vader, Vader's origins, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Palpatine) and then expand it further (Rey, Finn, Poe, Jyn, Qi'ra). Rather than making films around tentpole characters that had existing stories or huge cult followings, they are creating new characters and new worlds and new stories. Which is fine. But it dilutes the power of the brand and what makes Star Wars quite unique.

 

[JackOutback]

No, I completely understand that that's what they think, and I even clarified above that Star Wars is NOT like Marvel, and it's foolish of Disney to treat it as one.

Marvel is not diluted because each of their comics is its own individual brand within a larger Universe. Star Wars is the reverse case where you begin with a brand (Han-Luke-Leia) and then expand it (Vader, Vader's origins, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Palpatine) and then expand it further (Rey, Finn, Poe, Jyn, Qi'ra). Rather than making films around tentpole characters that had existing stories or huge cult followings, they are creating new characters and new worlds and new stories. Which is fine. But it dilutes the power of the brand and what makes Star Wars quite unique.

I think it can work from both ends. Marvel might have had pre-existing characters, but comic book fans don't make these films billion-dollar releases, the average film-goer does, and for them these are effectively new characters and ideas. Where Marvel has an advantage is pre-existing ideas from which to work. But if Lucasfilm can create quality films in different eras (i.e. Old Republic, Sequel era etc) then there's no reason they can't release distinct films under the one brand and achieve success.

 

[SM]

I think it can work from both ends. Marvel might have had pre-existing characters, but comic book fans don't make these films billion-dollar releases, the average film-goer does, and for them these are effectively new characters and ideas. Where Marvel has an advantage is pre-existing ideas from which to work. But if Lucasfilm can create quality films in different eras (i.e. Old Republic, Sequel era etc) then there's no reason they can't release distinct films under the one brand and achieve success.

I think Solo demonstrates why it doesn't work for Star Wars. And I'm not talking Box Office, I'm talking the story. One of the key comments about that movie is just how bland and vanilla it is. Even 2/3rds of Rogue One gets the same comment. It's nothing (really) to do with the writers, and just the fact that Star Wars without the key characters with a compelling plot lacks a bit of the magic.

I found a fantastic article discussing this topic a while back and it was hugely compelling. I'll try to dig it up.

Here:

https://t.co/uSW6vwRyVN

 

[JackOutback]

I think Solo demonstrates why it doesn't work for Star Wars. And I'm not talking Box Office, I'm talking the story. One of the key comments about that movie is just how bland and vanilla it is. Even 2/3rds of Rogue One gets the same comment. It's nothing (really) to do with the writers, and just the fact that Star Wars without the key characters with a compelling plot lacks a bit of the magic.

I found a fantastic article discussing this topic a while back and it was hugely compelling. I'll try to dig it up.

Here:

https://t.co/uSW6vwRyVN

My point is that Solo isn't universe or brand building, it's a spin-off of a pre-existing character. It worked for Rogue One because Star Wars nostalgia was at its peak. I think Star Wars can work as a universe, but they went to the OT well once too often. If the GoT guys make a fantasy epic in the Old Republic era and RJ makes a standalone trilogy with whole new characters in the ST era, then people will start to realise that Star Wars can be more than just the Skywalkers and it will flourish (though quality remains the key). The novels went in many different directions and I never felt like it was diluting Star Wars.

Maybe they will focus on TV to create a similar effect, maybe TV and movies will work together, but I personally want as much (quality) Star Wars as they can stump up the cash for.

 

[SM]

My point is that Solo isn't universe or brand building, it's a spin-off of a pre-existing character. It worked for Rogue One because Star Wars nostalgia was at its peak. I think Star Wars can work as a universe, but they went to the OT well once too often. If the GoT guys make a fantasy epic in the Old Republic era and RJ makes a standalone trilogy with whole new characters in the ST era, then people will start to realise that Star Wars can be more than just the Skywalkers and it will flourish (though quality remains the key). The novels went in many different directions and I never felt like it was diluting Star Wars.

Maybe they will focus on TV to create a similar effect, maybe TV and movies will work together, but I personally want as much (quality) Star Wars as they can stump up the cash for.

I agreed once upon a time, but they'll need to do a lot right to win me back over. I just think Star Wars is one brand where something too different will fail (it won't feel like Star Wars) and something too similar will fail (just an echo of the older films).

I think the problem is - and it's been discussed ad nauseum - is the seeming lack of planning. If they'd come out with a clear key concept for the spin offs (i.e. have one be the spy film (as was done), one be a fighter pilot film (this seems like a money printing machine??), one an origins of the Jedi (/Old Republic)) to dip a toe in each key different market that draws people to Star Wars, and then have Trilogy movies between them, they could have started off on much more level footing.

 

[JackOutback]

I agreed once upon a time, but they'll need to do a lot right to win me back over. I just think Star Wars is one brand where something too different will fail (it won't feel like Star Wars) and something too similar will fail (just an echo of the older films).

I made it through Kevin J Anderson's books and kept reading, I can make it through a serviceable, if bland, Solo

 

[SM]

I made it through Kevin J Anderson's books and kept reading, I can make it through a serviceable, if bland, Solo

Check my edit. I have no doubt that you are spot on that there ARE avenues for story telling that would largely expand the Star Wars universe and also be appealing to mass audiences. But.. they haven't taken it? Instead of focussing on genres/eras, they're seemingly focussing on events/characters, which I think is the wrong way to look at things.

 

[JackOutback]

Check my edit. I have no doubt that you are spot on that there ARE avenues for story telling that would largely expand the Star Wars universe and also be appealing to mass audiences. But.. they haven't taken it? Instead of focussing on genres/eras, they're seemingly focussing on events/characters, which I think is the wrong way to look at things.

They obviously haven't got the mix just right (though neither are they struggling, they have made $4.5bn off four movies). Perhaps the success of Rogue One pushed them in the nostalgia direction harder, they plumped for Solo, began work on Fett and Kenobi, and now they are realising that nostalgia only got them so far. With the GoT team and RJ working on separate ideas rather than characters, RJ's pitched as completely unrelated in the ST era, then perhaps that is the correct tack they need to take (I think we are all hoping the GoT trilogy is an Old Republic or Jedi/Sith era).

I agree on the fighter pilot film, the second standalone should have been an X-Wing film set post-ROTJ, it would have worked better into the ST as well.

 

[SM]

They obviously haven't got the mix just right (though neither are they struggling, they have made $4.5bn off four movies). Perhaps the success of Rogue One pushed them in the nostalgia direction harder, they plumped for Solo, began work on Fett and Kenobi, and now they are realising that nostalgia only got them so far. With the GoT team and RJ working on separate ideas rather than characters, RJ's pitched as completely unrelated in the ST era, then perhaps that is the correct tack they need to take (I think we are all hoping the GoT trilogy is an Old Republic or Jedi/Sith era).

I agree on the fighter pilot film, the second standalone should have been an X-Wing film set post-ROTJ, it would have worked better into the ST as well.

Fairly sure it's been confirmed somewhere that it's Old Republic, potentially about Bane.

Completely agree. It's why I'm a bit confused at the naming of Rogue One when it seemed to be building hype for a fighter pilot movie and then pulled a massive swerve. It also means now if they make a Rogue Squadron film they're possibly going to confuse casuals.

 

[JackOutback]

Yep, can't do a Rogue Squadron film now Might have to choose a different squadron name (this is an example of a standalone film they can do in between trilogies, budget of $100m and expect to make $500m or so, not $1bn; still a success and drives the brand forward).

 

[Exe Gesis]

I found a fantastic article discussing this topic a while back and it was hugely compelling. I'll try to dig it up.

Here:

https://t.co/uSW6vwRyVN

best article about any topic in the world ive ever read. thanks for sharing.

 

[SM]

Yep, can't do a Rogue Squadron film now Might have to choose a different squadron name (this is an example of a standalone film they can do in between trilogies, budget of $100m and expect to make $500m or so, not $1bn; still a success and drives the brand forward).

Hmm I think a rogue Squadron movie, if marketed right, could have made bank. The only thing casuals like more than Jedi is space fights.

 

[mike123]

Fairly sure it's been confirmed somewhere that it's Old Republic, potentially about Bane.

Completely agree. It's why I'm a bit confused at the naming of Rogue One when it seemed to be building hype for a fighter pilot movie and then pulled a massive swerve. It also means now if they make a Rogue Squadron film they're possibly going to confuse casuals.

They’re 100 percent going to confuse casuals. I know ome person who thought rogue one was a sequel to TFA and wondered why Darth Vader was still alive.

 

[Exe Gesis]

On youtube, there's a popular channel called Star Wars Theory found here

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8CbFnDTYkiVweaz8y9wd_Q

He made a fan film over the last x months/years called VADER, which finally airs tonight.
So if you're interested in watching it, keep an eye out all day today.

He made a few trailers in the past, here's one of them....

 

[Exe Gesis]

It's actually premiering at a Los Angeles theater....

 

[Exe Gesis]

You can watch the full movie on December the 20th on the Star Wars Theory channel for free with no adverts.

 

[Exe Gesis]

here he talks about how LucasFilm supports his channel, and okayed the fan film, however there were certain rules he had to abide by...

 

[Exe Gesis]

btw...speaking of vader.....

some new canon here, palpatine confirmed as anakin's father....based also on lucas' original script for ROTS, the new comic seems to back this up now....

 

[JackOutback]

Fairly sure it's been confirmed somewhere that it's Old Republic, potentially about Bane.

Completely agree. It's why I'm a bit confused at the naming of Rogue One when it seemed to be building hype for a fighter pilot movie and then pulled a massive swerve. It also means now if they make a Rogue Squadron film they're possibly going to confuse casuals.

Thinking about this conversation recently, I definitely think Solo has put the brakes on the Star Wars universe as much as some think it was TLJ. The success of TFA and R1 led them to do another OT-based movie, but the nostalgia kick had passed, and they missed the opportunity to build on their universe. My choice of standalone films would have been R1 as done, followed by an X-Wing movie set after ROTJ perhaps showing the liberation of Coruscant, followed by a film set in the PT era post ROTS showing Vader hunting down the remaining Jedi. You get three distinct eras, three distinct genres (war film, fighter/spy and chase/thriller).

You would then follow it up with the GoT Old Republic series and RJ working in the ST era.

 

[SM]

Thinking about this conversation recently, I definitely think Solo has put the brakes on the Star Wars universe as much as some think it was TLJ. The success of TFA and R1 led them to do another OT-based movie, but the nostalgia kick had passed, and they missed the opportunity to build on their universe. My choice of standalone films would have been R1 as done, followed by an X-Wing movie set after ROTJ perhaps showing the liberation of Coruscant, followed by a film set in the PT era post ROTS showing Vader hunting down the remaining Jedi. You get three distinct eras, three distinct genres (war film, fighter/spy and chase/thriller).

You would then follow it up with the GoT Old Republic series and RJ working in the ST era.

Yep, we're in agreement.

I hated the concept of origin movies from the start.

 

[SM]

Should we frame this moment Jack? Rare.

 

[JackOutback]

Should we frame this moment Jack? Rare.

I imagine we'd be in agreement quite a lot about the OT, largely in agreement for the PT, and TFA.

It's just TLJ, tearing people apart since 2017

 

[JackOutback]

Yep, we're in agreement.

I hated the concept of origin movies from the start.

We were saying how the title of Rogue 1 kinda hurt the chances of a Rogue Squadron movie. Likewise, The Last Jedi has kinda hurt the chances of a movie when Vader hunts down the last jedi.

 

[SM]

We were saying how the title of Rogue 1 kinda hurt the chances of a Rogue Squadron movie. Likewise, The Last Jedi has kinda hurt the chances of a movie when Vader hunts down the last jedi.

Bizarrely there's a Legends book called The Last Jedi. Wonder if it saw a spike in sales after the movie was announced.

 

[JackOutback]

Bizarrely there's a Legends book called The Last Jedi. Wonder if it saw a spike in sales after the movie was announced.

Yeah, essentially part of the Coruscant Nights series; I kinda liked the idea of a Jedi trying to remain hidden from Vader post ROTS, think it would be a good film idea for a standalone, with an appearance by Vader.