Roast Statement on Umpires

[Noidenous]

Try actually watching the games rather than looking at stats. An even free kick count doesn't mean it's a well umpired game and the free kick count doesn't show incorrect frees paid or correct frees missed so looking at each teams frees for and against rankings is irrelevant.

There was more than one bad decision that went against us in our games against Collingwood, Hawthorn, Freo and West Coast. There were a lot more bad decisions or non decisions that went against us in those games than went in our favour.

Your constant defence of terrible umpiring is tiresome, you'd think the fact that most people disagree with you would make you wise up to how stupid your arguments are.

Oh yes, I should just bow down to the notion there's a conspiracy against us when there most certainly isn't.

I also wonder what it is that I'm watching when I go to the ground. Must pay $50 to play darts at the pub or something.

What I do agree on is that umpiring should become a professional role at the highest level, thus leading to greater participation rates at all levels, with the obvious carrot implicit in the change.

As always, I never see you or the 5 or 6 other 'most people' whining about soft frees for us, or incidents that should have been frees against but were missed each week.

Boo hoo.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Oh yes, I should just bow down to the notion there's a conspiracy against us when there most certainly isn't.

I also wonder what it is that I'm watching when I go to the ground. Must pay $50 to play darts at the pub or something.

What I do agree on is that umpiring should become a professional role at the highest level, thus leading to greater participation rates at all levels, with the obvious carrot implicit in the change.

As always, I never see you or the 5 or 6 other 'most people' whining about soft frees for us, or incidents that should have been frees against but were missed each week.

Boo hoo.

You do realise that an umpire can earn something like $150K a year. ( compare it to how much a professional Teacher/Engineer/ or accountant would earn ). But yes they are already more important than the players so why not pay them more as well. We can all buy those umpire cards that came out.

 

[Plugger35]

Oh yes, I should just bow down to the notion there's a conspiracy against us when there most certainly isn't.

I also wonder what it is that I'm watching when I go to the ground. Must pay $50 to play darts at the pub or something.

What I do agree on is that umpiring should become a professional role at the highest level, thus leading to greater participation rates at all levels, with the obvious carrot implicit in the change.

As always, I never see you or the 5 or 6 other 'most people' whining about soft frees for us, or incidents that should have been frees against but were missed each week.

Boo hoo.

No one is saying we don't get some soft/bad decisions go our way, the issue is that there have been a number of games over the last year or so where our opposition has had significantly more soft/bad decisions go their way which has affected the result, something many neutral supporters have agreed with btw.

How you can't see that is beyond me but you seem determined to stick with your pro-umpiring agenda so it's a waste of time arguing with you.

 

[Noidenous]

You do realise that an umpire can earn something like $150K a year. ( compare it to how much a professional Teacher/Engineer/ or accountant would earn ). But yes they are already more important than the players so why not pay them more as well. We can all buy those umpire cards that came out.

So they can potentially earn $150k while a rookie is guaranteed 80k.

It's like any other casual job.

'Are you available, son?'

'No, my parents are making me go to a brisque / It's my father-in-law's birthday and my wife scares me'.

Guarantee the moneys and they'll be more likely to train/study/develop on the AFL's time instead of their own in the name of making a career out of it. Plenty in the coffers as the AFL tell us over and over.

I'd like to know how many current umpires have been doing it every week (barring illness) for 10+ years.

 

[Noidenous]

No one is saying we don't get some soft/bad decisions go our way, the issue is that there have been a number of games over the last year or so where our opposition has had significantly more soft/bad decisions go their way which has affected the result, something many neutral supporters have agreed with btw.

How you can't see that is beyond me but you seem determined to stick with your pro-umpiring agenda so it's a waste of time arguing with you.

It's a waste of time because it's obvious I won't humour you by figuratively licking your arse... that's why it's a waste of time.

Would you know of any games we've won as a result of bad umpiring? They've been there.

 

[Plugger35]

It's a waste of time because it's obvious I won't humour you by figuratively licking your arse... that's why it's a waste of time.

Would you know of any games we've won as a result of bad umpiring? They've been there.

You realise I wasn't the person that started this thread and I'm not the only Saints supporter with a gripe about the umpiring we've received recently?

Please tell me the games we've won in the last 12 months as a result of bad umpiring because I can't think of any.

 

[Tombowler]

This thread is giving me some bad vibes... Fact is, there's no conspiracy BUT St Kilda has been on the receiving end of some seriously shithouse decisions that have either changed momentum at a crucial moment and consequently cost a game or straight up cost one from a scoring shot.

I put it down, in part, to the Saints being a low-key club. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. I don't think umpires do this deliberately but I reckon some of the other clubs being so vocal sticks subconsciously in the mind of umps and results in them 'looking out for things' and such.. Just a theory...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So they can potentially earn $150k while a rookie is guaranteed 80k.

It's like any other casual job.

'Are you available, son?'

'No, my parents are making me go to a brisque / It's my father-in-law's birthday and my wife scares me'.

Guarantee the moneys and they'll be more likely to train/study/develop on the AFL's time instead of their own in the name of making a career out of it. Plenty in the coffers as the AFL tell us over and over.

I'd like to know how many current umpires have been doing it every week (barring illness) for 10+ years.

Yeah because who would waste their time earning a paltry $80K or so ( average AFL ump ) as a hobby when you could be out working that second job for $40K to pay the mortgage.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

This thread is giving me some bad vibes... Fact is, there's no conspiracy BUT St Kilda has been on the receiving end of some seriously shithouse decisions that have either changed momentum at a crucial moment and consequently cost a game or straight up cost one from a scoring shot.

I put it down, in part, to the Saints being a low-key club. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. I don't think umpires do this deliberately but I reckon some of the other clubs being so vocal sticks subconsciously in the mind of umps and results in them 'looking out for things' and such.. Just a theory...

You may be right, in which case someone should be giving them a stern talking to. But all the vibe from Mr Geishen seems to indicate that all is well in his little world.

 

[Plugger35]

This thread is giving me some bad vibes... Fact is, there's no conspiracy BUT St Kilda has been on the receiving end of some seriously shithouse decisions that have either changed momentum at a crucial moment and consequently cost a game or straight up cost one from a scoring shot.

I put it down, in part, to the Saints being a low-key club. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. I don't think umpires do this deliberately but I reckon some of the other clubs being so vocal sticks subconsciously in the mind of umps and results in them 'looking out for things' and such.. Just a theory...

The crowd is definitely a factor, especially interstate games where there are mostly opposition supporters or in games against clubs with much bigger supporter bases like Collingwood. Although there have been games where we've copped bad umpiring and the crowd has been 50/50 or mostly Saints supporters like the Freo game at Etihad last year so the crowd isn't the only factor.

 

[Tombowler]

The crowd is definitely a factor, especially interstate games where there are mostly opposition supporters or in games against clubs with much bigger supporter bases like Collingwood. Although there have been games where we've copped bad umpiring and the crowd has been 50/50 or mostly Saints supporters like the Freo game at Etihad last year so the crowd isn't the only factor.

I didn't just mean vocal crowds, I mean, using the example of Collingwood, a semi-sociopath like Macguire to inflict hours of pain for each and every slighty or not-even dodgy decision that goes against them.

 

[Squizz]

Don't remember a free for this one:

"A rough conduct charge against GWS ruckman Dean Bogan involving St Kilda's Jack Newnes will go straight to the AFL tribunal."

 

[Squizz]

Yeah because who would waste their time earning a paltry $80K or so ( average AFL ump ) as a hobby when you could be out working that second job for $40K to pay the mortgage.

And they get to sell autographed cards on ebay:

 

[The Punter]

I remember the West Coast game from last year being well umpired ... after half time. Sometime umpires reward the team playing better football, and other times they hop on the bandwagon of the team playing better football.

I thought Saturday was well umpired. They very well probably missed the Brogan thing because it was well off the ball.

 

[Squizz]

They very well probably missed the Brogan thing because it was well off the ball.

Yeah, I suppose it is different to Jamie Charman getting two weeks for taking out Riewoldt from the front (as he was about to mark), yet no free kick was paid on the night.

Geary shouldn't have been penalised (if he is, they've missed alot of free kicks), the forceful contact from the front in a marking contest (#5 had no eyes for the ball), and the Newnes one (obviously high contact - what does the emergency umpire do? Scratch his nuts all night?) were all missed.

 

[Kildonan]

There is no doubt that we have been on the wrong end of the umpiring decisions so far this year. The stats bear that out. We need to take ownership of the cause.

I don't think the umpires set out to be unfair (although it may seem like it at times).

Clubs practice every aspect of our game - this includes tackling and being tackled. Sometimes they even have umpires attend and provide advice that helps this process.
I don't think we are as advanced in this area of the game as some other clubs. Richmond were able to capitalise on our poor technique and that is part of the reason why the free kick count was so lop sided. Mistakes were also made - umpires are not perfect - and so far this year the poor mistakes have not benefited us very much and may well have cost us. (This is a judgement call - we don't have a perfectly umpired match based on the same match to compare with).

Well officiated matches, where the umpires allow the play to continue until they are SURE that an infraction has occurred, seem to flow better. The match is more exciting, the pace seems to be faster and the fans are happier. When you analyse these matches, the total number of free kicks is fewer and the number of missed free kicks is fairly even. Fans don't like seeing a free kick missed, but are forgiving if similar are missed for the opposition. Fans get irate when the umpires over-officiate. This is when they attempt to pay every free kick with no real feel for the game. The best umpires are barely noticed. The eager umpires suffer from a feedback loop in that they try to be consistent by paying the same "iffy" free kicks every time they see them. The players are not stupid - they quickly learn what gets them a free kick and repeat the actions. The over-officiators end up paying more free kicks and (note this is opinion - I do not have any statistics to back this up) tend to be the worst offenders when a free kick disparity results.

St Kilda has not drawn the really big crowds - I wonder if that is the reason we continue to get the poorer umpires. The over-officiators. These tend to be the newer umpires. Given a lot of experience most umpires become better decision makers and this results in the low free kick count match that fans love.

Geoff Gieshen has a tough job. He has held it for a long time. I don't think he has interpreted the rule-makers correctly at times and I don't think he strives to prevent over-offiation. Maybe it is time to call for fresh leadership. Someone with a real feel for the game.

 

[sauce_head]

I understand using basketball as an analogy may confuse the situation for some, but it does help those familiar with the blocking/charging dynamic, as I've experienced through explaining decisions to my French housemate.

It's a good comparison, although a defender can still draw a charge if moving in bball! And so much if basketball is in football now, like the full court press. I think it is apt.

 

[sauce_head]

And they get to sell autographed cards on ebay:

That is a joke right? I heard some interesting stories about Ray Chamberlin on Friday and allegedly baiting supporters after a match (not saints).

I don't think the umpiring was particularly bad on Saturday (it was v the tigers). I think we need to fix our technique tackling for a start and start controlling what we can control. But having watched the Geelong v Blues and Hawks v Pies, what frustrates me is the inconsistency between matches. If the same standard of contact winning a free in our match had been applied in those games, the free kick count would be through the roof.

Add to that the AFL tinkering with the rules to ENCOURAGE players to instigate contact, and we have a real problem. It is certainly taking away from my enjoyment if the game, and I am sure I am not the only one.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That is a joke right? I heard some interesting stories about Ray Chamberlin on Friday and allegedly baiting supporters after a match (not saints).

I don't think the umpiring was particularly bad on Saturday (it was v the tigers). I think we need to fix our technique tackling for a start and start controlling what we can control. But having watched the Geelong v Blues and Hawks v Pies, what frustrates me is the inconsistency between matches. If the same standard of contact winning a free in our match had been applied in those games, the free kick count would be through the roof.

Add to that the AFL tinkering with the rules to ENCOURAGE players to instigate contact, and we have a real problem. It is certainly taking away from my enjoyment if the game, and I am sure I am not the only one.

Unfortunately not a joke.

 

[Tombowler]

Unfortunately not a joke.

Who the f#ck would want a signed umpire trading card? I mean honestly. If I knew a kid at school who collected those I'd want the teachers to check his locker; only an unfeeling sociopath would collect them, probably to go along with the harvested organs of his enemies or the dead-eyed, papier mache bust of the girl that sits next to him....

 

[sauce_head]

Who the f#ck would want a signed umpire trading card? I mean honestly. If I knew a kid at school who collected those I'd want the teachers to check his locker; only an unfeeling sociopath would collect them, probably to go along with the harvested organs of his enemies or the dead-eyed, papier mache bust of the girl that sits next to him....

I think it is meant more as an indictment on the AFL administration and the fact they would attempt to make money out of umpires and foster a situation where the personality of an umpire was promoted. So much for a good umpire being one that is not noticed. I blame Billy Bowden.

 

[cartwright]

Don't remember a free for this one:

"A rough conduct charge against GWS ruckman Dean Bogan involving St Kilda's Jack Newnes will go straight to the AFL tribunal."

Is this the mystery reason why Newnes was subbed out? Nothing from commentary team, no update via twitter.

 

[sauce_head]

Is this the mystery reason why Newnes was subbed out? Nothing from commentary team, no update via twitter.

Makes sense as I am sure I heard somewhere he was being assessed for concussion

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Who the f#ck would want a signed umpire trading card? I mean honestly. If I knew a kid at school who collected those I'd want the teachers to check his locker; only an unfeeling sociopath would collect them, probably to go along with the harvested organs of his enemies or the dead-eyed, papier mache bust of the girl that sits next to him....

Quit looking in my locker would ya?

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

You do realise that an umpire can earn something like $150K a year. ( compare it to how much a professional Teacher/Engineer/ or accountant would earn ). But yes they are already more important than the players so why not pay them more as well. We can all buy those umpire cards that came out.

It's not just about the money though. The more people that can be attracted to umpiring, the more likely there are to be better umpires in the game.

It should become professional, as that in itself is then likely to attract more people.

Of course, without getting paid a decent amount, who would want to be an umpire? You'd get more love being a Parking Attendant.

Anyone else notice Leigh Fisher officiating in a game over the weekend? I can't remember which game it was.