Stats questions

35Daicos · Jun 11, 2022

^ There's a spreadsheet available here, and it has the finishing positions for all Reserves and U19's seasons, so it may be of interest: Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club | Lower Grades (U19s and Reserves)

Catsace · Jun 11, 2022

1989 sadly for us Cats fans was a year where all three grades lost the GF's by a goal or less. Gnash!!

emuboy · Jun 12, 2022

Thanks for the replies about finishing positions in reserve and under 19s. I thought it was 1975 that all three South Melbourne teams finished last, but maybe it was 1971? And somebody told me years ago that Fitzroy didn't win in the league or reserves in 1964, he must have been mistaken.

As for Melbourne in 1981, that is so strange, their league team finishing last 1-21, their reserve grade side having an average mid-ladder season going 9-13 and their under 19s winning the premiership.

35Daicos · Jun 12, 2022

emuboy said:
Thanks for the replies about finishing positions in reserve and under 19s. I thought it was 1975 that all three South Melbourne teams finished last, but maybe it was 1971? And somebody told me years ago that Fitzroy didn't win in the league or reserves in 1964, he must have been mistaken.

As for Melbourne in 1981, that is so strange, their league team finishing last 1-21, their reserve grade side having an average mid-ladder season going 9-13 and their under 19s winning the premiership.

1973 was the year!:

Reserves:

Under 19's:

Catsace · Jun 12, 2022

That's awesome work 35Daicos, i've not seen that before. Geelong was a reserves powerhouse too in the 20's and 30's.

1973 on a different tangent is the last time Geelong has finished a season with fewer than 7 wins as well.

In fairness to South in '73, their percentage of 79 is pretty competitive for a bottom side. Slightly higher than Geelong's with two less wins. Contrasting significantly with this season where both North and WCE are batting around 50%.

And boy....5th place in the U 19's where a 16-6 record and 129% was only enough for 5th! Guessing the Final 5 was decided probably before August started, with 5 games separating 6th.

worbod · Jun 21, 2022

RedmanWasHere said:
This would be like a Footscray fan highlighting a Norf victory.

Anyway.

Relevant question for this thread.

Does anyone have the order of who reached the 400 goal mark from first to the most recent in Tom Lynch and, before him, Jack Gunston? (E.g. maybe Gordon Coventry reached 400 league goals first.)

Up to the end of round 13, 2022

Order	Player	Game	age	Days since previous 400-goalkicker	Career goals
1	Dick Lee	round 16, 1915	26 and 141 days	** 6664	707
2	Jimmy Freake	round 11, 1923	34 and 175 days	2905	442
3	Gordon Coventry	round 2, 1928	26 and 216 days	1743	1299
4	Jack Moriarty	round 6, 1929	28 and 32 days	399	662
5	Harry Vallence	round 16, 1933	28 and 76 days	1540	722
6	Bob Pratt	round 1, 1935	22 and 239 days	616	681
7	Bill Mohr	round 3, 1935	25 and 316 days	14	735
8	Jack Titus	round 13, 1935	27 and 133 days	70	970
9	Keith Forbes	round 10, 1937	31 and 29 days	707	475
10	Dick Harris	round 11, 1942	30 and 270 days	1848	548
11	Norm Smith	round 13, 1942	27 and 253 days	14	572
12	Alby Pannam	round 13, 1943	29 and 110 days	371	459
13	Sel Murray	round 14, 1944	26 and 256 days	364	461
14	Fred Fanning	round 19, 1947	25 and 298 days	1120	411
15	Lindsay White	round 6, 1948	26 and 138 days	266	540
16	Jack Dyer	round 1, 1949	35 and 154 days	331	443
17	Dick Reynolds	round 11, 1949	34 and 12 days	75	442
18	John Coleman	round 1, 1953	24 and 146 days	1386	537
19	Alan Ruthven	round 10, 1953	31 and 71 days	70	442
20	Bill Hutchison	round 12, 1954	31 and 73 days	378	496
21	Lou Richards	round 14, 1954	31 and 138 days	21	423
22	Jock Spencer	round 17, 1955	26 and 241 days	378	475
23	John Peck	round 5, 1965	27 and 281 days	3563	475
24	Doug Wade	round 8, 1968	26 and 236 days	1120	1057
25	Peter Hudson	round 16, 1970	24 and 149 days	770	727
26	Peter McKenna	round 2, 1971	24 and 228 days	269	874
27	Bob Skilton	round 6, 1971	32 and 181 days	26	412
28	Alan Noonan	round 16, 1975	27 and 279 days	1533	434
29	Kevin Bartlett	round 18, 1976	29 and 147 days	378	778
30	Alex Jesaulenko	round 19, 1976	31 and 5 days	7	444
31	Leigh Matthews	round 15, 1977	25 and 130 days	343	915
32	Michael Moncrieff	round 2, 1979	26 and 238 days	644	629
33	Robert Walls	round 15, 1979	28 and 359 days	92	444
34	Kelvin Templeton	round 4, 1980	23 and 202 days	279	593
35	Bernie Quinlan	round 20, 1981	30 and 25 days	483	817
36	Malcolm Blight	round 16, 1982	32 and 144 days	329	444
37	Garry Wilson	round 12, 1983	29 and 329 days	336	452
38	Michael Roach	round 20, 1984	25 and 314 days	434	607
39	Simon Madden	round 2, 1986	28 and 96 days	595	575
40	Simon Beasley	round 20, 1986	30 and 21 days	133	575
41	Terry Daniher	round 2, 1988	30 and 237 days	601	469
42	Brian Taylor	round 3, 1988	26 and 6 days	8	527
43	Tony Lockett	round 2, 1989	23 and 30 days	357	1360
44	Jason Dunstall	round 13, 1989	24 and 313 days	76	1254
45	Gary Ablett	preliminary final, 1989	27 and 357 days	92	1031
46	Peter Daicos	qualifying final, 1990	28 and 353 days	350	549
47	Dermott Brereton	round 16, 1991	26 and 321 days	301	464
48	Stephen Kernahan	round 11, 1992	28 and 272 days	329	738
49	Richard Osborne	round 20, 1992	28 and 46 days	63	574
50	Paul Salmon	round 5, 1993	28 and 94 days	266	561
51	Peter Sumich	round 22, 1993	25 and 228 days	125	514
52	John Longmire	round 15, 1994	23 and 183 days	309	511
53	Roger Merrett	round 18, 1995	35 and 109 days	400	433
54	Billy Brownless	round 20, 1995	28 and 203 days	13	441
55	Stewart Loewe	round 15, 1996	28 and 51 days	329	594
56	Tony Modra	round 15, 1997	28 and 133 days	364	588
57	Wayne Carey	round 22, 1997	26 and 96 days	50	727
58	Sav Rocca	round 5, 1998	24 and 156 days	237	748
59	Garry Lyon	round 15, 1998	30 and 294 days	70	426
60	Paul Hudson	round 22, 1999	29 and 39 days	420	479
61	Chris Grant	round 3, 2000	27 and 104 days	211	554
62	Matthew Richardson	round 5, 2001	26 and 39 days	397	800
63	Alastair Lynch	round 9, 2001	32 and 341 days	29	633
64	Matthew Lloyd	round 12, 2001	23 and 60 days	20	926
65	David Neitz	round 13, 2003	28 and 157 days	743	631
66	Warren Tredrea	round 19, 2005	26 and 226 days	771	549
67	Fraser Gehrig	round 20, 2005	29 and 163 days	6	549
68	Barry Hall	round 20, 2005	28 and 187 days	1	746
69	Jeff Farmer	round 7, 2006	28 and 323 days	272	483
70	Michael O'Loughlin	round 18, 2006	29 and 166 days	84	521
71	Brad Johnson	1st elimination, 2006	30 and 54 days	36	558
72	Scott Lucas	round 11, 2007	29 and 160 days	271	471
73	Anthony Rocca	round 1, 2008	30 and 220 days	288	415
74	Brendan Fevola	round 4, 2008	27 and 84 days	22	623
75	Daniel Bradshaw	round 9, 2008	29 and 186 days	42	524
76	Russell Robertson	round 6, 2009	30 and 160 days	343	428
77	Matthew Pavlich	round 12, 2009	27 and 172 days	49	700
78	Jason Akermanis	round 14, 2009	32 and 130 days	13	421
79	Jonathan Brown	round 17, 2009	27 and 269 days	21	594
80	Nick Riewoldt	round 1, 2010	27 and 161 days	245	718
81	Stephen Milne	round 11, 2010	30 and 88 days	69	574
(current player) 82	Lance Franklin	round 9, 2011	24 and 112 days	352	1024
83	Brent Harvey	round 18, 2012	34 and 75 days	433	518
84	Adam Goodes	round 9, 2013	33 and 136 days	300	464
85	Steve Johnson	2nd qualifying, 2013	30 and 65 days	106	516
86	Jarryd Roughead	round 14, 2014	27 and 149 days	287	578
87	Travis Cloke	round 4, 2015	28 and 51 days	308	452
(current player) 88	Jack Riewoldt	round 7, 2015	26 and 198 days	22	739
89	Eddie Betts	2nd elimination, 2015	28 and 290 days	118	640
90	Drew Petrie	1st elimination, 2015	32 and 333 days	1	444
(current player) 91	Josh J. Kennedy	round 9, 2016	28 and 270 days	251	704
(current player) 92	Tom Hawkins	round 4, 2017	28 and 270 days	331	701
93	Mark LeCras	round 17, 2017	30 and 320 days	90	441
94	Gary Ablett jr	round 22, 2018	34 and 96 days	398	445
(current player) 95	Taylor Walker	round 11, 2019	29 and 37 days	287	511
(current player) 96	Jeremy Cameron	1st preliminary, 2019	26 and 173 days	112	505
(current player) 97	Luke Breust	round 9, 2020	33 and 248 days	314	463
(current player) 98	Jack Darling	round 14, 2020	28 and 75 days	27	465
(current player) 99	Jack Gunston	round 1, 2022	30 and 155 days	570	413
(current player) 100	Tom Lynch	round 7, 2022	29 and 180 days	40	418

** Days since for Dick Lee is calculated from May 8, 1897, the first day of VFL competition.

RedmanWasHere · Jun 21, 2022

Thanks for that sterling effort Worbod.

Feel like the next possibilities for 400 are:

Ben Brown.
Michael Walters.
Jake Stringer.
Charlie Cameron.

Ben Brown the most realistic of the rest but the top 100's pretty close to settled.

The Swert · Jun 22, 2022

Bob Pratt the clear anomaly in that list.
Only 22 years old when he kicked his 400th!
Didn't realise he was that young for his 150 goal season.

Catsace · Jun 22, 2022

The Swert said:
Bob Pratt the clear anomaly in that list.
Only 22 years old when he kicked his 400th!
Didn't realise he was that young for his 150 goal season.

That was an awesome list there Worbod, fantastic work!

A deluge of big goalkickers in that late 20's and 30's era, where scoring was quite high in the context of where scoring went to into the 50's and 60's. Back in that era even star players could make as good money or better in other competitons, or just in the workforce. Pratt could have wound up with well over a thousand goals, although W.W.2 intervening also would have played a role.

Interesting that both combatants in the WCE/Geel game last week have over 700 each and were the exact same age upon hitting 400, being Hawkins and Kennedy.

Superboot Quinlan doubled his goalscoring tally after his 30th year as well. Gary Sr adding 60% to his tally in the last 7 seasons he played.

emuboy · Jul 10, 2022

In heavy rain in Perth yesterday, West Perth clung to a 1-point lead late in a low-scoring match against Peel Thunder. Could the Thunder manage a point in the dying minutes to level the scores and produce not only the first WAFL draw in over 10 years, but the first draw for Peel in 25 years since their 1997 WAFL debut? Alas, it wasn't to happen, the Falcons kicking two more points late in the final quarter while the Thunder didn't score again and the final siren saw West Perth home by 3 points.

While there are indeed longer draw droughts in high level football (AFL, WAFL, SANFL, VFL/VFA, Under 18s, other state leagues) than Peel's 25 years - for example Coburg went 36 years from 1983-2019 without playing a draw while WAFL team East Fremantle haven't drawn since 1989 - are there any other examples of teams that took such a long time from debut to play a drawn match? (Not that Peel have drawn a game yet).

In the AFL, Essendon and Geelong took 14 years to draw matches in 1911 after their 1897 debuts, but the record belongs to Fremantle, the Dockers taking 18 years after their 1995 debut to draw a game against the Sydney Swans in 2013, and they haven't tied since.

sherb · Jul 10, 2022

A player in my club's Reserve Grade team here in Sydney yesterday kicked all 7 of his side's goals. And he's not a key position player either.

What's the highest number of goals people here know of (AFL or otherwise) when a player kicks all his side's goals? I keep the records for my club and the previous best I know of is 5.

RussellEbertHandball · Jul 10, 2022

sherb said:
A player in my club's Reserve Grade team here in Sydney yesterday kicked all 7 of his side's goals. And he's not a key position player either.

What's the highest number of goals people here know of (AFL or otherwise) when a player kicks all his side's goals? I keep the records for my club and the previous best I know of is 5.

Don't know the answer but its less than 8.

7 out of 8 has happened 5 times.

AFL Tables - Miscellaneous Goalkicking Records

emuboy · Jul 10, 2022

sherb said:
A player in my club's Reserve Grade team here in Sydney yesterday kicked all 7 of his side's goals. And he's not a key position player either.

What's the highest number of goals people here know of (AFL or otherwise) when a player kicks all his side's goals? I keep the records for my club and the previous best I know of is 5.

In Round 18 1914 an Arthur Best kicked all of Melbourne's 5.5-35 scored against South Melbourne. I guess Arthur was the Demons' best player on the day.

sherb · Jul 10, 2022

RussellEbertHandball said:
Don't know the answer but its less than 8.

7 out of 8 has happened 5 times.

AFL Tables - Miscellaneous Goalkicking Records

Thanks for that, the remarkable one on that table is McKenna's 16 out of 19.

Catsace · Jul 10, 2022

Of note today, the Eagles against Carlton managed to not trouble the scorers in both the first and last quarters. Must be a long time since that would have last happened i'd say.

emuboy · Jul 10, 2022

Catsace said:
Of note today, the Eagles against Carlton managed to not trouble the scorers in both the first and last quarters. Must be a long time since that would have last happened i'd say.

That Eagles score today where they scored nothing in the first and last terms is very odd indeed.

There were some 1990s games I remember where teams were scoreless in two quarters of the same game. In Round 23 1992 in pouring rain, cold temperatures and mud galore at the Western Oval, the West Coast Eagles were thumped by Footscray in a game in which their quarter by quarter scores were 0.0, 0.2, 0.2 & 3.5, the Bulldogs' total of 7.11-53 winning easily. Of course it didn't bother the Eagles too much, and five weeks later they held the 1992 premiership cup aloft after comfortably disposing of Geelong.

There was also a very strange match played in Round 9 1994, a day/night match on a Sunday at Football Park in Adelaide between the Adelaide Crows and Hawthorn, conditions that evening wet, windy and cold. There had been some doubts about Adelaide, one of the premiership favorites pre-season after some patchy form in the early part of the year, but the Hawthorn game saw their season really unravel. The Hawks thrashed the Crows by 97-points in a game that produced quarter by quarter scores of Hawthorn 8.1 11.3 19.8 22.13-145 to Adelaide 0.0 3.3 3.3 7.6-48. The Crows were kept scoreless in both the first and third quarters, but outscored their opponents in the second and fourth, and while off topic I don't recall any other team losing by as much as that after winning two terms of the match.

Struggling Fitzroy played an infamous match against Essendon in the opening round of 1995 at the Western Oval, where they were scoreless to the long break, 0.0-0 to 7.12-54, and things only marginally improved for the Lions after half time.

However, I don't recall any matches in which a team was scoreless in both the first and last quarters. Maybe somebody else can name one?

Gibbsy · Jul 11, 2022

Being scoreless in 'opposing' quarters such as the first and fourth would surely be such a rarity because it indicates that the match conditions (e.g. a howling breeze to one end) played no part in the team's struggles.

the croucher · Jul 11, 2022

emuboy said:
In Round 18 1914 an Arthur Best kicked all of Melbourne's 5.5-35 scored against South Melbourne. I guess Arthur was the Demons' best player on the day.

Decided to check via Trove the contemporary newspaper and journal reports of that 1914 Melb v Sth Melb match.

All confirm that Arthur Best kicked all five goals for Melbourne.
None of them state that he kicked all five points as well, in fact, so far I've not seen any player credited with any of the points.

The VFL match programme the next week also comments on him kicking all five goals, but nowhere makes a claim that he kicked the entire score.

I think the "entire score kicked by Best" claim needs to be removed, unless direct evidence found to confirm accuracy of it.

North park · Jul 11, 2022

Catsace said:
Of note today, the Eagles against Carlton managed to not trouble the scorers in both the first and last quarters. Must be a long time since that would have last happened i'd say.

Sir Swamp Thing tweets that it is the first time in 103 years that a team has been held scoreless in both the first and last quarters

West Coast's final score of 8.5.53 is the highest for a team in the nine times this has happened.

Cuzz09 · Jul 11, 2022

We are really creating some weird/sad records this year

Love the quote about Eagles holding up the cup 5 weeks later in 92... Memories

I remember that Footscray game thinking WTF coz we only scored 3 a few weeks earlier v StK at Waverley.

Im guessing... but would the 92 Eagles be the last team to have 2 x 3 goal games as a premier?

Probably some in the 1900s i guess as low scores were more regular.

I think also after about rd 7 in 92 we went 4 W 1 L for the season.

(10th)WWWWLWWWWLWWWWLWWWW(flag)

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app

Catsace · Jul 11, 2022

Cuzz09 said:
We are really creating some weird/sad records this year

Love the quote about Eagles holding up the cup 5 weeks later in 92... Memories

I remember that Footscray game thinking WTF coz we only scored 3 a few weeks earlier v StK at Waverley.

Im guessing... but would the 92 Eagles be the last team to have 2 x 3 goal games as a premier?

Probably some in the 1900s i guess as low scores were more regular.

I think also after about rd 7 in 92 we went 4 W 1 L for the season.

(10th)WWWWLWWWWLWWWWLWWWW(flag)

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app

I am still amazed (and it ties in with your blocks of 4), the 16 goals kicked by the Eagles in the '92 GF were Sumich 6, Matera 5, Evans 3, Wilson 2.

So much for the theory that it's best to get a spread of goals

That snap right on half time by Sumich with all his weight away from the direction he kicked, for it to go 45m straight through, it was an astounding goal.

I don't have the stat but i'd hazard to say that no Premier, or possibly even grand finalist would have kicked as big a score with just four contributors in the goals column.

emuboy · Jul 11, 2022

the croucher said:
Decided to check via Trove the contemporary newspaper and journal reports of that 1914 Melb v Sth Melb match.

All confirm that Arthur Best kicked all five goals for Melbourne.
None of them state that he kicked all five points as well, in fact, so far I've not seen any player credited with any of the points.

The VFL match programme the next week also comments on him kicking all five goals, but nowhere makes a claim that he kicked the entire score.

I think the "entire score kicked by Best" claim needs to be removed, unless direct evidence found to confirm accuracy of it.

The Wikipedia page for the 1914 VFL season references Arthur Best kicking Melbourne's entire score of 5.5-35 in the final round in its list of notable events.

I know I've seen it referenced in an old football stats book too.

emuboy · Jul 11, 2022

North park said:
Sir Swamp Thing tweets that it is the first time in 103 years that a team has been held scoreless in both the first and last quarters

West Coast's final score of 8.5.53 is the highest for a team in the nine times this has happened.

That's amazing, the last time was the extraordinary South Melbourne vs. St Kilda game in 1919 when the Swans outscored the Saints 17.4-106 to 0.0-0 in the final term, thrashing their cross-lake rivals 29.15-189 to 2.6-18.

emuboy · Jul 11, 2022

Gibbsy said:
Being scoreless in 'opposing' quarters such as the first and fourth would surely be such a rarity because it indicates that the match conditions (e.g. a howling breeze to one end) played no part in the team's struggles.

This phenomenon used to happen frequently at the Western Oval in windy weather back in the day. Case in point two remarkable games between Footscray and Fitzroy at this venue in 1927 and 1964:

Round 17 1927
Footscray 6.8 7.8 15.11 15.11-101 d. Fitzroy 0.0 3.8 3.8 9.18-72

Round 10 1964
Footscray 0.0 7.5 8.5 14.9-93 d. Fitzroy 3.3 3.3 13.6 13.7-85

Imagine a family watching the Bulldogs & Lions at the 1927 game and sitting at the non-scoring end:
SON & DAUGHTER: Mum, Dad, this is boring, can we please move to the other end of the ground?
DAD: No kids, its perfectly exciting here. You'll appreciate the goals more.
MUM: Your father is right, kids.

Then fast forward 37 years to the Bulldogs vs. Lions game in 1964:
SON & DAUGHTER: Mum, Dad, this is boring, can we please move to the other end of the ground?
DAD: No kids, when I was your age back in the 20s, your Grandpa and Grandma always made your Aunty and I sit at this end of the ground, it made us appreciate goals more.
MUM: Your father is right, kids.

emuboy · Jul 11, 2022

North park said:
Sir Swamp Thing tweets that it is the first time in 103 years that a team has been held scoreless in both the first and last quarters

West Coast's final score of 8.5.53 is the highest for a team in the nine times this has happened.

Thinking about this rare phenomenon of teams going scoreless in the first and final terms while scoring in the second and third, has the inverse of this ever occurred - a team scoreless in the second and third quarters while scoring in the first and last? And if so, how often and when was the last time?

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