Opinion Stephen Silvagni

[JustaBattler]

I wonder how much say Bolton actually had on the picks SOS and his team made ? I also (now) understand why there was an added layer put between SOS and the President in the appointment of Llyod and Judd as Director of Football.

If the Club appoints the type of Coach required to be significantly better than Bolton and keep the memberships up and growing- it will be a Roos/Lyon type. Neither of these blokes are going to cede drafting or trading targets to SOS and his team or anyone else.

This Board may well need the type of Coach who will say up front - I need 3 years and all you nuff nuffs out of my way - or no deal bugger off and go find another apprentice etc etc..

I reckon it is fair to say that the clock started ticking on SOS today - big time.

 

[murphster]

Delete and Start again , This time select Richmond

Yeah please do.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

As an outside observer I’m staggered when I see Carlton supporters say things like SOS has done an “outstanding” job.

He’s had some good picks early doors, but he’s fluffed a few and traded in some real junk using some very good draft assets, whilst rarely finding late gems.

I know it’s a sensitive topic round here, but the pick swap with Adelaide was either a poor use of a highly valuable asset or a complete overestimation of his own handiwork vis-a-vis where the list was at. It also seem consistent with his conpulsion to overcomplicate things at the trade table for little reward, like 2016, when via a series of trades he essentially turned Zach Tuohy and a 2017 2nd into Marchbank, Smedts and Pickett.

The experienced players he’s targeted have frequently been underwhelming too. Using just my team as an example, cheap recycled players like Crozier (3rd), Duryea (4th) and Lloyd (4th) would be perfect for Carlton’s list, but he’s picking up blokes like Darcy Lang (4th + swap 4ths this year with Geelong) and targeting Fasolo and Bugg off the scrap-heap (likely because he’s used up all of his draft capital on the other trades that have failed to bear fruit).

He’s done more head-scratching stuff than a lot of other list managers and I think if he wasn’t a club legend he’d be more clearly in the firing line.

He cleverly offloaded Henderson, Yarran, Menzel, Bell, Gibbs for top dollar. Pretty sure we got at least 1 first round pick out of each of them which is huge considering how little they’ve achieved since. Loaded up on key position players early. Rebuild looked good early on. Am starting to worry the bad as stated in your post is starting to outweigh the good

 

[THE_GUN]

Whilst slightly off topic but looks as though its moving towards the coaching appointment

I think the Carlton Football Club now needs to go after Paul Roos for a 2 year appointment with an understudy coming in as an assistant as the melbourne model was done.

Carlton supporters have had enough and cannot afford to fail again for many reasons Football , Marketing and supporters
Ideally i would go Roos with Mitchell or even Ratten

 

[Bostonian]

Seems to me that there are some enemies of Carlton that haunt this place parading as do gooders. Trying to dislodge the club personnel one by one.

Seems to me you need to actually go to more games and experience the vibe of the fans in the stands.

Especially if you think this is a BF thing.

 

[murphster]

Join date doesn't equal time spent reading this forum. I am not one to post online. Too old. But I have grown really tired of posters like you and Soapy V trying to silence people concerned about the direction of the Club.

More importantly, I wanted to record my thanks to Bolton for his service. Just because I didn't think he could take us to 17 doesn't mean I dislike the bloke. He gave his heart and soul to the Club - that deserves recognition.

Unlike yourself that deserves none.

 

[RAPPA]

As an outside observer I’m staggered when I see Carlton supporters say things like SOS has done an “outstanding” job.

He’s had some good picks early doors, but he’s fluffed a few and traded in some real junk using some very good draft assets, whilst rarely finding late gems.

I know it’s a sensitive topic round here, but the pick swap with Adelaide was either a poor use of a highly valuable asset or a complete overestimation of his own handiwork vis-a-vis where the list was at. It also seem consistent with his conpulsion to overcomplicate things at the trade table for little reward, like 2016, when via a series of trades he essentially turned Zach Tuohy and a 2017 2nd into Marchbank, Smedts and Pickett.

The experienced players he’s targeted have frequently been underwhelming too. Using just my team as an example, cheap recycled players like Crozier (3rd), Duryea (4th) and Lloyd (4th) would be perfect for Carlton’s list, but he’s picking up blokes like Darcy Lang (4th + swap 4ths this year with Geelong) and targeting Fasolo and Bugg off the scrap-heap (likely because he’s used up all of his draft capital on the other trades that have failed to bear fruit).

He’s done more head-scratching stuff than a lot of other list managers and I think if he wasn’t a club legend he’d be more clearly in the firing line.

Basically his acquisitions inside around the top 20 or 25 has been good, but late draft pick selections, rookie and preseason has been poor

 

[Gavstar]

I wonder how much say Bolton actually had on the picks SOS and his team made ? I also (now) understand why there was an added layer put between SOS and the President in the appointment of Llyod and Judd as Director of Football.

If the Club appoints the type of Coach required to be significantly better than Bolton and keep the memberships up and growing- it will be a Roos/Lyon type. Neither of these blokes are going to cede drafting or trading targets to SOS and his team or anyone else.

This Board may well need the type of Coach who will say up front - I need 3 years and all you nuff nuffs out of my way - or no deal bugger off and go find another apprentice etc etc..

I reckon it is fair to say that the clock started ticking on SOS today - big time.

So you think if Bolton said I don’t want McGovern SOS would have still traded for him? Don’t be daft.

 

[Bostonian]

Not sure if I am a minority or not, but I don’t see why SOS takes any fall for this.. We have built a very good list.. sure a few fails misses like Kennedy and SPS, but as a whole we have the bones of a very good list which is why every available coach will be lining up for the job.

That is mere opinion.

The evidence at present doesn't support this claim.

 

[Kwality]

SOS has done good IMO. He had traded well and brought talent to the club. You can see the talent there!

But they are not developing, this is due to coaching. Not just Bolton but all the coaches, where are our development and line coaches. There impact is non existent

Has he traded/drafted well. Who have stood up, stood up, not going to be?

 

[murphster]

Whilst slightly off topic but looks as though its moving towards the coaching appointment

I think the Carlton Football Club now needs to go after Paul Roos for a 2 year appointment with an understudy coming in as an assistant as the melbourne model was done.

Carlton supporters have had enough and cannot afford to fail again for many reasons Football , Marketing and supporters
Ideally i would go Roos with Mitchell or even Ratten

Ratten is ready to go now, was a good coach first time around will be a great coach after working under Clarko and a year at Aints. Hope we have the balls to do it.

 

[Bostonian]

Whilst slightly off topic but looks as though its moving towards the coaching appointment

I think the Carlton Football Club now needs to go after Paul Roos for a 2 year appointment with an understudy coming in as an assistant as the melbourne model was done.

Carlton supporters have had enough and cannot afford to fail again for many reasons Football , Marketing and supporters
Ideally i would go Roos with Mitchell or even Ratten

So follow a failing model by implementing it again at another struggling club?

 

[JustaBattler]

So you think if Bolton said I don’t want McGovern SOS would have still traded for him? Don’t be daft.

Read what I wrote and dont you be daft.

 

[murphster]

Yeah, we're a team of kids lacking prime age players, what do we expect. Sadly we have improved on last season but only slightly. It's a mistake to see a club have a few early picks and complain after a few seasons they are no good. Early picks or not they take time, not every player is Sam Walsh.

Well yeah GWS have the most available talent. A lot of successful clubs have also raided them so we are not the only ones doing that. We probably weren't able to raid the better player there because of the cost, multiple draft picks doesn't work for a club needing numbers. We didn't spend massive amounts on the GWS players for memory, we still took most of our premium picks to the draft.

And here we have top sides who have taken top GWS and GCS players who are injury prone and they have become top players. Not taking players because they are injury prone goes against a lot of really good players out there who had a lot of success after coming good. Not all player you pick work out, that has to be accounted for, i put Hawthorn's top 30 picks up from their early 00's rebuild, heaps of busts amongst them and it worked out well.

If you aren't of the opinion SOS isn't going to get the job done in 4 years then why the criticism? Most of the players seem pretty good to me, just young.
I hate the term support for Cripps. Whatever we do isn't going to change Cripps role or what he does, if anything it may just make him go harder. It's not all about Cripps. Just like it should never have been all about Judd yet it was. A midfield to be good must be good as a whole, not because of a star or two. Everyone needs to be skilled, strong, tough and able. We haven't got it yet, we've had a go at a few players and I am sure we will have a go at more. We just need to land them. Cripps as good as he is, it can't be all about him. If we win a flag we shouldn't be a side that falls right away if he is not there. Cripps is only 24 and has more than enough time in his career to be a prime age player in a top side at Carlton. It would be great to add a couple of strong mature bodies into the center, it's exactly what we need but they come at a price and we haven't been able to afford to hand over multiple early picks.

There is requirements and time frames to draft players. The gun talls and mids go early so you need to use early picks when you have them on those types and we have. Talls and inside mids take the longest to develop so you have to get them early. Small forwards seem to take the shortest time frame to develop plus they are the ones the most hurt by developing in a poor side. You need to get the ball to them and get it to them quickly otherwise they are a waste and we can't do that yet. A lot of good sides have taken their small forwards to the end of their rebuild and it worked out perfectly. Cyril Rioli, Daniel Riole etc etc came into teams already built, they were just the finishing touches.

If you build a side out of order you end up all over the place. half built midfields, good midfields with immature talls who by the time they mature the midfield is gone. We're following a tried and trusted blueprint that has been used for years when it comes to rebuilding the long way through youth. You simply must get your longer developing players in early and your shorter developing players in later. We still have a midfield to build and perhaps a backline to bolster. We haven't had the resources to get small forwards in with prime picks. We've used a few later and rookie picks on guys like Lebois, Pickett, Gibbons and DeLuca who are potential small forwards and Fisher may well end up there when we bolster the midfield but for now we haven't got to it.

You used Richmond as an example, there's no backing out of that. They partook in a 7 year rebuild which finished in 2017 with a Premiership. So Hardwicks first draft was 2009. In 2015 they drafted their small forward line Rioli, Castagna, Lambert, Butler. We started our rebuild at the 2015 draft. If we follow Richmond's blueprint that would mean we don't draft our small forward line until 2021. All the good teams build a team the same way, start with mids and talls, focus on that until it's right and work on getting the peripheral less important/valuable players with rookie/late picks until every other area is complete and get the small forwards in if needed. It just is how it is. Yeah we need them now but it's more important to have other areas of the ground covered and if we find a good small forward along the way with a cheap pick then great! One less player to get and that has been done before. Puopolo was a 23 year old out of the VFL, same with Lambert so who knows. In a better team a Gibbons or DeLuca might take to the role.

Long story short, you start a rebuild, you don't want to be drafting players who are retiring and bombing out before the job is done, that is something that clubs who do it successfully just don't do.

I think the Stocker trade will become irrelevant in time, great the Crows can have a gun youngster. We can have three. We're still ahead if that is the case. It will become even more irrelevant if we happen to trade that pick which I think we will look to as we are coming into that phase we're it's now appropriate for us to take young mature talent with premium picks. There is also the other factor that we might not be last, there are 3 clubs ahead of us on only 3 wins so who knows. I just feel pick 1 or pick 11, you always look back and it's all a much of a muchness.

SOS was unable to bring in experience because of the past. Most clubs rebuild through trades/free agency because they have a solid foundation. We had no foundation and were forced to rebuild through the draft and with youth only. If we were a top or mid table team then we wouldn't have had to but we really were offered no choice. We need 25-30 good players to become flag contenders and build sustainability because of this we have had the needs to bring in players of a certain age group which started as a small slot and is not getting bigger. Because of this and our need to get players of a certain age every year so all mature at the same time and picks aren't wasted SOS has actually not had the opportunity to bring in mature players. Tried Shiel last year but wasn't to be.

This is what people don't get, if SOS goes to the 2015 and 2016 draft and drafts mature players then all the really top top young talent we have are at other clubs and our rebuild, instead of starting in 2015 starts in 2017 and currently we are a mediocre middle of the bottom 10 side who hardly has any players who will be in it's next premiership side. The opportunity to draft useful mature players is only happening now and who knows if we will be able to get them.

Yeah yeah trading high picks can work both ways, Collingwood have traded a few to build their side and they are contenders and were nearly premiers. In fact a lot of the better sides trade early picks. What you aren't remembering is we didn't just trade it for one pick we traded it for two early picks.

Kerridge would be useful but perhaps he didn't want to be a fringe player and perhaps we just wanted the list spot. I think we expected Kerridge would struggle to get a game and maybe he would have but even so he's not in our future and not a massive loss. You are going to have to believe those players weren't out there because they weren't. 3rd round picks are a lottery, 4th round picks are pure luck, same with the rookie draft, especially with an 18 team competition. It just is how it is. Study the draft and you will see. Gibbons, DeLuca are probably the best of "what is out there" and we have them.

O'Shea is a really bad example, he cost us a preseason draft pick which is a nothing pick. He earned it with good VFL footy and it was, his VFL game was quite good. Don't get me wrong there is the odd rookie who is really good and there are some pretty handy players in the 4th round but in terms of ones who would be making an impact now they would more or less just be some of our youth which is fine, the more good young players the better but honestly, taking a few older players with nothing picks really doesn't do much harm.

It is a maths thing. You have X amount of picks to bring in 25-30 good players who will all be peak and matured at the same time more or less and the quicker you do it the better the finished result and the greater sustained success you will have. You fu*k around with premium draft picks and use them on older blokes who wont be there at the end you start going the other way and end up with a half built rushed side that never peaks highly and doesn't last as long and here you are rebuilding from scratch again. Unless you can do a Brisbane and get a guy like Hodge for nothing you may as well go with youth or best available mature player with late/nothing picks. And I wouldn't be worried about a few duds. As I put up before, Hawthorn's rebuild had a heap of them, what they did right was they had a massive amount of top 30 picks. That's how they built what they had. What we are doing is very similar.

Yeah we all over rate our list because because we want to and because it is talented and it shows a bit some times but then we are reminded they are young and immature and that is hugely important. It doesn't remind me of Melbourne, their draft craft and list building wasn't that good. People always bag sides who rebuild with youth and point out Melbourne from years and years ago but forget Hawthorn also rebuilt with youth and drafting and quite heavily but they really had a lot more craft and foundation about them.

For me what we are doing works out. Five years of going nowhere and two years of rapid improvement. We're at year four so we are nearing the right end of things and we should be at a really good stage to bring in players with the field being much more open for us this trade/draft period.

I think we expected more competitiveness this season, I had us down for 4 or 5 games give or take and that may still happen but some players just don't look as good as hoped and perhaps that is losing patience, I mean you look at the ages and games played their stats are about average for that, unfortunately those stats don't make for a good AFL side.

I think you need to look at our recruiting as a whole and look at the number of quality young players coming in each season. All clubs have misses, that's normal, just reviewing SOS's recruiting I think it is above average. He's sown up all the tall positions. He's got a 1/2 to 3/4 built midfield. The backline is mostly built so a lot has been done. It's just about finishing the job the next few seasons and maturing these players. A lot riding on probably the next 3 recruitment periods. Will be better with Agresta there etc, the team was fairly bare when SOS arrived so it should improve, here's hoping.

For what it's worth, if we went down the mature player path and tried to get better quicker the end result would be very very bad.

Ripping post and best and most accurate in regards to our rebuild and others that I have read. Fantastic piece of work, well done.

 

[THE_GUN]

So follow a failing model by implementing it again at another struggling club?

Not really failing considering Roos left them to make top 4 last year , Its the players at melbourne that are not playing the part but the system did work

personally i would get Ratten and think he is the best person for the job

 

[murphster]

You can really say the same on the flipside.
Posters come on with reasonable questions about the club, coach and board and get shouted down.

Particular posters then take it upon themselves to be the arbiter on the posting quality of the ones they disagree with.

Both sides of the coin are as unproductive as each other, only one side has mod backing though.

Mod backing? Paranoid much.

 

[JustaBattler]

That is mere opinion.

The evidence at present doesn't support this claim.

Agreed - all I've seen is a bunch of skinny runts with glimpses and cameos of AFL capability and coach killers.

 

[murphster]

As an outside observer I’m staggered when I see Carlton supporters say things like SOS has done an “outstanding” job.

He’s had some good picks early doors, but he’s fluffed a few and traded in some real junk using some very good draft assets, whilst rarely finding late gems.

I know it’s a sensitive topic round here, but the pick swap with Adelaide was either a poor use of a highly valuable asset or a complete overestimation of his own handiwork vis-a-vis where the list was at. It also seem consistent with his conpulsion to overcomplicate things at the trade table for little reward, like 2016, when via a series of trades he essentially turned Zach Tuohy and a 2017 2nd into Marchbank, Smedts and Pickett.

The experienced players he’s targeted have frequently been underwhelming too. Using just my team as an example, cheap recycled players like Crozier (3rd), Duryea (4th) and Lloyd (4th) would be perfect for Carlton’s list, but he’s picking up blokes like Darcy Lang (4th + swap 4ths this year with Geelong) and targeting Fasolo and Bugg off the scrap-heap (likely because he’s used up all of his draft capital on the other trades that have failed to bear fruit).

He’s done more head-scratching stuff than a lot of other list managers and I think if he wasn’t a club legend he’d be more clearly in the firing line.

What about the other cheap recycled players at your great recruiting ground like say Boyd or Schace( so irrelevant can’t even bother looking up correct spelling) or Akermanis. People in glass, I’d say houses but it’s more a high rise of irrelevance, shouldn’t throw stones.

 

[murphster]

I agree, I think he has too much power and thinks he’s more clever than what he actually is.

Seems to be going around

 

[Bordertoon]

We're **** because what happened before SOS.

Where are the good talented 23-30 year olds? Players drafted in the 2006-2014 Draft period. If we were half decent through this period we would be a top side by now. We would have strong bodies, leadership, ball winning ability and talent to go with all the top young players we have and we would not be a bottom side.

We don't have prime age talent therefore regardless of how good our kids are and how good our coaching is we are going to be ****.

We completely have our previous admin to blame, this will hang over our heads until our best 22 is mostly over 22 and we have had enough drafts/trade/free agency periods to make up for a decade+ of being basically absent from the draft..


Drafting History

Coach: Ratten
Recruiter: Wayne Hughes

2006 (30-31 year olds)
Gibbs - Good player, traded for kids etc.
Hampson - recruited a project ruck at pick 17, traded out.
Grigg - average player traded and retired.
Austin - bust
Benjamin - bust
Anderson - bust

Jacobs - traded away
Jamison - good value rookie, body didn't last long, good old fashion defender.

2007 Draft (29-30 year olds)
Kreuzer - Reasonable player, probably don't take ruckmen with early picks.
Browne - No Good.
Armfield - Good ordinary player, long retired.

Joseph - ok player, didn't last.
Ellard - ok player, didn't last
plus others

2008 (28-29 year olds)
Yarran - Talented, personality problems, traded out never got the best out of himself, long gone.
Robinson - Trier, maturity problems, lack of leadership around him, traded out for nothing, only now playing with maturity.
O'Keefe - bust, always injured
Tiller - bust

Garlett - Average player, traded out, struggling to keep his career going
5 absolute busts

2009 (27-28 year olds)
Lucas - bust
Davies - bust
Kerr - bust

Casboult - Handy journeyman
White - Was ok filling a role
Tuohy - Fairly good player traded out.
Plus 3 busts

2010 (26-27 year olds)
Watson - Bust
McCarthy - Bust
Mitchell - Bust
McInness - Bust
Duigan - Handy mature age player, long retired

Curnow - Drafted a bit older, been a good handy B Grade midfielder.
4 Busts

Chris Rogers promoted to head recruiter mid 2011

2011 (25-26 year olds)
22 - Bootsma - Bust
Rowe - Good journeyman
Buckley - Bust

Bell - was ok, C grade mid.
2 others

2012 (24-25 year olds)
11- Menzel - Bust
Temay - Bust
Graham - Bust

Mick Malthouse takes over as Coach

2013 (23-24 year olds)
13. Cripps - Superstar
Giles - Bust
Holman - B grader at another club

2014 (22-23 year olds)
19. Boekhorst - Bust
28. Viojo-Rainbow - Bust
Smith - Bust
Foster - Bust

Gowers - Partial bust, fringe player at Bulldogs
2 others

Silvagni Appointed as list manager
Bolton appointed as Coach

2015 (21-22 year olds)
1 - Weitering - Developing good young player.
10 - McKay - Developing good young player
12 - Curnow - mostly developed good young player
23 - Cuningham - developing good young player
Silvagni - fairly reasonable fringe player, better in a good side

No rookies

2016 (20-21)
6 - SPS - Talented young player but still developing.
27 - Fisher - Very talented young player still developing
Macreadie - Talented young player who's had a lot of injuries
Polson - Not looking good
Williamson - Talented player, always injured
Kerr - Has some talent but no spot for him

LeBois - Has some talent but has had a lot of injuries
Alex Silvagni - Older retired player
Gallucci - Bust

2017 (19-20)
3 - Dow - Looking like a Slightly above B Grade player but lots of developing
10 - O'Brien - Potential bust but too early to judge
30 - DeKoning - Talented but injured/
Schumacher - Has some talent but potential bust at this stage
Garlett - Probable bust

Shaw - Bust

Michael Agresta comes on Board

2018 (18-19)
1 - Welsh - Superstar
19 - Stocker - Looks good anything from a good solid player to star.
Silvagni - Very raw
O'Dwyer - Very raw

Goddard - Capable mature player
Bugg - Retired



Hawthorn Picks under 30 2001-2010

2001
Pick 20 - Elstone - 0 games

2002
8 - Luke Brennan - 28 games

2003
25 - Harry Miller - 18 games

2004
2 - Roughead
5 - Franklin
7 - Lewis
21 - Murphy - 112 average player
26 - Little - 1 game

2005
3 - Ellis - 120 games no star but ok player
6 - Dowler - 16 games
14 - Birchall
18 - Bailey - 43 games just a player
22 - Muston - 13 games

2006
6 - Thorp - Bust
24 - Renouf - 68 games average player

2007
12 - Rioli
29 - Whitecross - Good ordinary player

2008
16 - Schoenmakers

2009

2010
19 - Smith


Conclusion

1. We're **** because of what happened during the period before SOS and Bolton came to Carlton. This is because we lack prime age players and this is why we lack them.

2006-2014 drafts are the drafts where all the prime age AFL players were drafted. These are the draft periods which influence whether you are a good side in 2019 or not.

In those 9 drafts we drafted just 7 AFL capable players. Only 4 are on our list still. 1 is a star, 1 is ok, one is about cooked, 1 is below average.

2. Hawthorn's use of early round picks compared to us:

- They had 18 picks below 30 over 8 years. We have had 14 picks under 30 in 8 years. We had less because of changes in the AFL and only being managed properly the last few seasons.
- Hawthorn's drafting quality was 10/18 good players with early picks in that period.
- Ours is around 11/14 in 8 years and that includes some compromised Hughes/Rogers years of stuff all.
- SOS/Bolton era drafting in comparison to Hawthon's rebuild stacks up.
- Hawthorn had good senior players in their side and also drafted in mature players as well. We have not. We didn't have them and have not had the resources.

3.
Our drafting under SOS and now Agresta is proving to be somewhere between very good and above average. The players they have drafted are only just peaking into the age group where AFL players can have an impact. The drafting quality is actually pretty good in terms of hit and miss is actually pretty good with our early picks.

4.
We haven't had the resources or the time to fix over 9 years of really really bad player recruitment. SOS, Bolton and Agresta have only been to 4 drafts and have mostly taken youth. 4 years of rebuilding through youth on the back of over 9 years of really really bad player recruitment is why we are last on the ladder now. We're still making up for that.

9 Really good prime age players would make us a top side with the kids we have now. We have 1.

5.
We badly need to accept reality. This is a blame game and our previous regimes are to blame for where we are now. Our history still haunts us and will continue to until the majority of our team is aged between 23-30 and we have been to a few more drafts and recruited mature age talent.

6.
Young players are struggling to develop due to a lack of 23-30 year old quality players in the side.
This is why the team struggles structurally and functionally.
Ideal development environment is to only have a handful of players under 23 in the team, not most of them.

7.
You can spend 4 years drafting as good or better than Hawthorn did and coach them the same way and in the end it all comes down to what team you start off with and what team those young players are going into. You need the mature quality players.

8.
How are Bolton, SOS and Agresta supposed to make up for a decade of drafting next to no good players with 4 years and 4 years of really only drafting kids? People blaming who we have running the club now are not thinking.

POTY as far as I’m concerned GB, and imo such a well researched, carefully thought through, and lengthy post is deserving of an epigraph, which might also serve as Bolts’s epitaph. Here’s my nomination, from Karl Marx of all people:

“Men [including AFL coaches] make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past [that’d be the selections of Hughes and Rogers]. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living [just ask Bolts ...].”

 

[Bordertoon]

Ratten is ready to go now, was a good coach first time around will be a great coach after working under Clarko and a year at Aints. Hope we have the balls to do it.

I noticed that Juddy neatly sidestepped the Ratts back to the Blues question on FC Murph, while saying positive things about his appeal as a coach in general, so just maybe the door is at least slightly ajar for Ratts to return home. Tbh, I can’t see it happening myself, but you never know, and from online polls the prospect certainly seems to appeal to a lot of Bluebaggers. We shall see.

Btw, I noticed from a few of your recent posts that (understandably) you’ve been incredibly down about your Blues recently, and iirc you said at one point that you were close to chucking it all in, or words to that effect. Please don’t, as I for one highly value your input around here, and despite all the lows of recent times, I continue to believe that good times lie ahead of us. Go Blues!

 

[dumb]

the 'in sos we trust' stuff that washed over this forum seems like a distant memory now. it was silly at the time and looks worse now.

still, i don't have too much of an issue with how things have transpired - in hindsight someone like kerridge could have been kept on to make this year a bit easier.

lots of darts thrown to use up the rookie and other low picks. could he have taken more care here? wright was a fairly astute pickup.
i wonder what he makes of the development of our players and whether that influences things like trying to get back into first rounds.

phillips/lobbe are backups, don't think they are busts when their brief is little more than be tall. do need to pick another ruckmen up soon though...

 

[Big_Luch]

1. Disagree with Yes, Shouted down, No
2. Just wrong

The rules get applied differently to different posters. That's not 'wrong'... it happens. And it should happen like that but the the degrees it happens to are a little out for mine.

I'm not ripping on the mods, I have a vague idea what it is like to deal with a bunch of people online (run a draft fantasy league with trading... it's a pain).

However if we are to look at what you posted you offered no exposition to what you are saying. Just one word responses like someone else should just accept what you say. This rubs posters the wrong way and is counter productive as I mentioned.

 

[WFGodot]

For the record I think we have done well in drafting and to a lesser extent recruiting over the past 3-4 years. The obvious gap being the ability to add a mature gun or guns. We went after Shiel but missed out. McGovern will be good but he is not the big fish we needed, that should have been a mid. Unfortunately we were unable to get that done.

The young talent we have is now some of the best in the competition, rather than go after SOS for our shortcomings I question how our coaches have failed to develop what we have. This is more about development/assistant coaches than list management in my opinion.

The obvious shortcoming over his tenure is/was the over reliance on trying to pick GWS talent. Jaksch, Whiley, Palmer, Lamb, Sumner are all gone, I have serious doubts about Kennedy and Phillips but on the plus side are Marchbank, Plowman and Setterfield. Pickett gets a pass because of injury.

As for the Stocker trade, I think we have a good kid there who, just through happenstance, is caught up in what is so far a failed year. If we can get off the bottom and move to 2020 with positive back half results the decision looks good. If we don't win another game then the poor kid and SOS will be remembered for all the wrong reasons.

 

[jd2010]

When you look at why we had 4/22 players with 100+ games on the weekend (it would only be 6-7 with Simpson, Docherty & Thomas) a lot of that comes down to decisions made on how to fill the gaps made by a decade of poor drafting by Wayne Hughes. Players that should be in the 100-200 game mark right now are 24-29 years old and drafted in 2007-2014.

In that time we selected:
- Kruezer, Scott Browne, Dennis Armfield, Darren Pfifier, David Ellard, Aaron Joseph
- Yarran, Robinson, Rhys O'Keefe, Caleb Tiller, Garlett
- Lucas, Marcus Davies, Rohan Kerr, Cachia, Casboult & Simon White
- Watson, McCarthy, Luke Mitchell, McInnes, Duigan, & Ed Curnow
- Bootsma, Sam Rowe, Dylan Buckley, Fraser Dale & Tom Bell
- Troy Menzel, Tom Temay & Nick Graham
- Cripps, Cameron Giles, Nick Holman, Blaine Johnson & Cam Wood
- Boekhorst, Viojo Rainbow, Clem Smith, Jayden Foster, Jason Tutt & Billy Gowers

Plus others not play a single game in the rookie draft

Even the best in the business don't get it right every selection right but over 8 years you expect more than only 11 players to remain on AFL lists. You'd say that Rowe, Tom Bell, Casboult, Garlett & Dylan Buckley would be unlikely to be on lists in 2020. With so many players either given a 2nd chance and failing like Menzel & Lucas or not even considered good enough to get one like Watson or Boekhorst you can see why the list cull was well and truly needed.

Have all of the recycled players worked that have come through? Not at all. But have they done worse than 35+ players drafted in the last 8 years who aren't on currently AFL lists would have? In my opinion no they wouldn't.

Our problem isn't with the plan so to speak other than that we didn't appoint the right person to wear the pressure of going 16-61 in the first 77 games of the rebuild