Swans' academy.

[clogged]

It's part of the problem with these academies. Sydney fans (and chairman) say "if there are too many players in the academies then that will be great for football". But the reality is if the money is invested at all well then Sydney should be drafting guys for cheap every year in this system. AFL is a game played by athletes. Skill and toughness is great. But speed and fitness goes a long way. I'm sure Sydney can find enough athletes in their zone to develop up each year. I'd be shocked if they couldn't.

That's one of the intentions for it long term. To lure the best young athletes from other codes.

 

[Colonial]

I'd have killed to get a crack at one of: Patton, Boyd, Lynch, Cameron, Tomlinson, Tippett, Franklin, Day, Dixon, Thompson - and that's just the ******* KPP's that 3 of the northern states have had essentially unmatched access to in the past few years....

And people wonder why the game is such a state. Take all the available talent, gift it to a handful of clubs and watch those unfortunate enough to be towards the bottom at this time struggle for the next decade. Only Freo choose to play boring football, the rest of us are trying to turn pick 198 into a CHF out of ******* desperation.

Blame your club.
Not only did they vote to give us those picks. But also refused to trade with us. They could of gotten players/picks from us but chose not to. Or offered spuds.
AFL and the Giants are blameless

 

[Tas]

We cant complain too loudly about the drafting largesse afforded to the Suns or GWS as all clubs voted in favour of it. We did that so we didnt end up with another basket case Bears. Thats fair, all dont with now. The era of drafting concessions should now be over. Short of clubs tanking, I want 18th place to get the absolute number one draft pick.

All clubs voted in favour of a panel determining what they should receive, not all clubs approved of what was an excessive amount of talent based on flawed logic that they would trade a certain portion of the picks away, if you assumed that then it should have been a requirement.

 

[FuManchu]

I assume you're familiar with what "estoppel" means?

I couldnt give a rats. I understand that we supposedly have 2 mechanisms that are in place to assist in the rise of clubs who have bottomed. One is the salary cap, which should be applied as it is in the US, where it doesnt matter where you live, the cap is the same, it doesnt take into account state taxes, costs of living etc etc. The second mechanism should be an unfettered ability to draft every player available at your draft pick selection number. The only exclusion being the father/son rule of which The Lions and Sydney still have access to players from families going back 100 plus yrs and teams like Freo, WC, Port and the crows have sons becoming increasingly more avail to fit the criteria. The only disadvantaged clubs are the Suns and GWS and given their drafting largesse afforded to them, it wont be an issue for at least 5 or so years.

 

[CharlieG]

Except it is different. Sydney presumable have as many fathers eligible for the father son as any Victorian team. Maybe a slight disadvantage in having some kids grow up in Sydney but I'm sure a lot of former swans players are either still in Victoria or moved back to Victoria.

This academy is basically a way to make half the fathers in NSW eligible for Sydney and have the fathers eligible for GWS. Compare that to traditionally where you only have so many 100 game players for your club at at time.

It's part of the problem with these academies. Sydney fans (and chairman) say "if there are too many players in the academies then that will be great for football". But the reality is if the money is invested at all well then Sydney should be drafting guys for cheap every year in this system. AFL is a game played by athletes. Skill and toughness is great. But speed and fitness goes a long way. I'm sure Sydney can find enough athletes in their zone to develop up each year. I'd be shocked if they couldn't.

And if we get to a point where a comparable number of Swans players are coming from NSW to the number of Victorians playing for Melbourne teams, South Australians lining up in Showdowns and Western Australians playing in Derbys, then I'll agree with you that it's time for the system to change.

As one of the few in this thread who has clearly bothered to think through the issue, I would have liked to see you engage with the question of whether Heeney and Mills are a short-run fluke or whether they constitute conclusive evidence that the system is working. And if the latter, how long it should be allowed to work for.

As a Swans fan, it feels like there will always, always be something. No sooner was the COLA abolished that we moved on to this. Next it will be that the Swans get to do their recovery sessions at warmer beaches than the Victorian clubs. Surely you can see how it's exasperating? At some point people of good faith have got to stop and recognise that a state with a third of the nation's population is producing barely 3% of its footballers, and ask what impact that has on that state's clubs.

 

[Dopey BJ]

That's one of the intentions for it long term. To lure the best young athletes from other codes.

I think that is the best thing that could happen.
If the Swans and Giants are drafting only boys from their academies more boys from Vic will be left for Vic clubs.
I think Eddie has got this one wrong.

 

[FuManchu]

And if we get to a point where a comparable number of Swans players are coming from NSW to the number of Victorians playing for Melbourne teams, South Australians lining up in Showdowns and Western Australians playing in Derbys, then I'll agree with you that it's time for the system to change.

As one of the few in this thread who has clearly bothered to think through the issue, I would have liked to see you engage with the question of whether Heeney and Mills are a short-run fluke or whether they constitute conclusive evidence that the system is working. And if the latter, how long it should be allowed to work for.

As a Swans fan, it feels like there will always, always be something. No sooner was the COLA abolished that we moved on to this. Next it will be that the Swans get to do their recovery sessions at warmer beaches than the Victorian clubs. Surely you can see how it's exasperating? At some point people of good faith have got to stop and recognise that a state with a third of the nation's population is producing barely 3% of its footballers, and ask what impact that has on that state's clubs.

Your survival is backed by the AFL, there's your golden egg.

 

[CharlieG]

I couldnt give a rats.

Hint: It's the legal principle that means the AFL owes us a lot of money if they take away the reasonably expected benefits from acting according to the rules the AFL put in place.

 

[CharlieG]

Your survival is backed by the AFL, there's your golden egg.

Collingwood supporters taking a moral stance on the Academies on behalf of poor Victorian clubs is kinda like Clive Palmer blocking the budget because he's deeply concerned about its impact on the cost of living.

 

[FuManchu]

Hint: It's the legal principle that means the AFL owes us a lot of money if they take away the reasonably expected benefits from acting according to the rules the AFL put in place.

They've already poured a lot of money into Sydney well in excess of Victorian clubs. How the hell do you think you survived the 80's and 90's?

 

[FuManchu]

Collingwood supporters taking a moral stance on the Academies on behalf of poor Victorian clubs is kinda like Clive Palmer blocking the budget because he's deeply concerned about its impact on the cost of living.

You can do better than that contrived piece of crap...... or can you?

 

[CharlieG]

You can do better than that contrived piece of crap...... or can you?

I don't know. I haven't run for office.

 

[clogged]

I think that is the best thing that could happen.
If the Swans and Giants are drafting only boys from their academies more boys from Vic will be left for Vic clubs.
I think Eddie has got this one wrong.

Not really. The Vic clubs get the same amount of players they would have ever received. It might have the slight benefit of making some second round players are available in the third round of the draft, but that's it.

 

[FuManchu]

I don't know. I haven't run for office.

I get the feeling you probably couldn't even run for a bus, without asking for a 10% reduction in the fare and wanting an exclusive bus to yourself because you're too scared to sit with everyone else.

 

[replicant]

This is the way the old Vic zones went, we got preference because they were from our zone.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the academy setup in NSW and QLD - it's a good concept. But I think it should be an AFL funded thing, with the benefits available to all clubs in that state - not specific clubs only. To my mind, that only works if there is a bidding system between the clubs in that state and there is a single academy, jointly supported and managed.

I actually think that a single NSW and a single QLD academy is a good idea in theory, but then you need to actually organise and run it...

Imagine a similar situation in Vic... How well do you think a combined Carlton/Collingwood academy would run? There would be blood.

A lot of people seem to be focussing on one end of the Academy model, the draft. But it helps to think about it like this:
AFL: We need to grow the game in NSW and QLD. The old AFL funded model didn't work, and neither did the Scholarship scheme, whcih just took talent from NSW but never added back. We need an Academy to reach a large number of young kids and get them into the AFL before they get taken by other codes. Over time they will then (hopefully... hi clogged ) raise the level of the local comps. We don't have the time, money or local contacts to do a good job of it, but the northern clubs do. How do we get them to do this?

Carrot: They get draft concessions under F/S rules.
Stick: They pay for it and run it themselves.

If people have a problem with the carrot side of the equation, fine, but you can't just leave the stick, you need to change that too. Which would mean the AFL paying the clubs to do it. That's money just gone from the AFL, as currently the Academies are run off sponsorship money, i.e. external to the AFL. If you bring in that extra cost, that money has to come directly from the AFL, which means more equalisation tax.

Just saying "there shouldn't be draft concessions" is silly. It fundamentally breaks the entire academy model if you take away just one part. Feel free to suggest an alternate model, but keep in mind, the AFL absolutely DO NOT WANT TO and WILL NOT fund or run it.

 

[clogged]

Just saying "there shouldn't be draft concessions" is silly. It fundamentally breaks the entire academy model if you take away just one part. Feel free to suggest an alternate model, but keep in mind, the AFL absolutely DO NOT WANT TO and WILL NOT fund or run it.

If you have a draft academy there shouldn't be any other kinds of concessions. That is, salary cap, rental assistance, and arguably father-son (though I don't care much about the latter) should all be removed.

IMO the quid pro quo should be quarantining Sydney & GWS from drafting outside NSW past a certain round.

 

[Dopey BJ]

Not really. The Vic clubs get the same amount of players they would have ever received. It might have the slight benefit of making some second round players are available in the third round of the draft, but that's it.

Luke Parker, Gary Rohan, Zak Jones, Sam Reid, Adam Goodes, Dan Hannebery, Harry Cunningham, Dean Towers all players that would have been left in the poll if the Swans only picked academy players.

 

[FuManchu]

If you have a draft academy there shouldn't be any other kinds of concessions. That is, salary cap, rental assistance, and arguably father-son (though I don't care much about the latter) should all be removed.

IMO the quid pro quo should be quarantining Sydney & GWS from drafting outside NSW past a certain round.

They just want it all their way and still demand that other national schemes such as availability of all non NSW and Qld draftees remain available to them. They want to have increased salary caps, probably the excess funded by the AFL and then restrict other non NSW and Qld clubs to not be able to match it. In other words, they have become welfare dependent and cant stand anyone else being afforded the same.

 

[MarkT2]

Surely the academy is fantastic thing. I agree with most people that COLA being phased out is the correct thing to do but having an academy for all of the 4 NSW/Qld sides is a great idea.

I think it is a good idea for the game and a better idea for the 4 clubs. There are lots of thngs in that basket.

 

[Spook]

If you have a draft academy there shouldn't be any other kinds of concessions. That is, salary cap, rental assistance, and arguably father-son (though I don't care much about the latter) should all be removed.

IMO the quid pro quo should be quarantining Sydney & GWS from drafting outside NSW past a certain round.

Best post so far on this thread

 

[master bate]

And if we get to a point where a comparable number of Swans players are coming from NSW to the number of Victorians playing for Melbourne teams, South Australians lining up in Showdowns and Western Australians playing in Derbys, then I'll agree with you that it's time for the system to change.

As one of the few in this thread who has clearly bothered to think through the issue, I would have liked to see you engage with the question of whether Heeney and Mills are a short-run fluke or whether they constitute conclusive evidence that the system is working. And if the latter, how long it should be allowed to work for.

As a Swans fan, it feels like there will always, always be something. No sooner was the COLA abolished that we moved on to this. Next it will be that the Swans get to do their recovery sessions at warmer beaches than the Victorian clubs. Surely you can see how it's exasperating? At some point people of good faith have got to stop and recognise that a state with a third of the nation's population is producing barely 3% of its footballers, and ask what impact that has on that state's clubs.

The first round picks might be flukes, all evidence points that way. But second and third round picks are nearly as valuable under a bidding system.

Melbourne have Billy Stretch this year. He's rated as a second round-third round pick. Which means some club might have him on their draft list as the 20th best player. But they wont bid pick 20 for him because at pick 20 you have to believe that someone in your top 12 or so might slip that low. It probably doesn't get until pick 30 that someone bids for a guy they have at 20th on their list. Melbourne then get to use our 3rd round pick.

The bidding system as it stands not only allows you to pick a guy with your next rounds pick but as teams have to bid before the start of the draft they won't even bid aggressively.

The whole 'if the system is working' thing is my problem with it. It seems to me that by the time the academies are successful the clubs will have got a huge benefit from them. That's not an ideal design.

And I am fascinated to know how having a low percentage of home based players affects the Northern clubs. I would say barely at all. I don't hear the Green Bay Packers complaining despite probably having close to 0% of all NFL draftees from Green Bay.

You may be exasperated. But Eddie and others are exasperated from Sydney claiming advantages on the back of disadvantages that you can overcome without advantages.

 

[The_Reaper]

This is actually what happened when the old zones were abolished..... Clubs had put years of development into players and had to watch them go off to other clubs.

Hell, West Coast and Fremantle provide all the cash for WA draftees and the draft after we won the spoon we had to see Swallow, Bennell and Matera go off to the Gold Coast.

 

[MarkT2]

If you have a draft academy there shouldn't be any other kinds of concessions. That is, salary cap, rental assistance, and arguably father-son (though I don't care much about the latter) should all be removed.

IMO the quid pro quo should be quarantining Sydney & GWS from drafting outside NSW past a certain round.

The academys will be the quid pro quo for the loss of COLA and the disadvantages of the North in the end.

 

[Spook]

They just want it all their way and still demand that other national schemes such as availability of all non NSW and Qld draftees remain available to them. They want to have increased salary caps, probably the excess funded by the AFL and then restrict other non NSW and Qld clubs to not be able to match it. In other words, they have become welfare dependent and cant stand anyone else being afforded the same.

Which I am sure you and all others would be fine with if they were bottom of the ladder and had been for a while. But FFS they won 2 flags in the last 8 years and are top of the ladder and odds on to win. ITS A JOKE THAT they think they are on struggle street

 

[The_Reaper]

The acadaeys will be the quid pro quo for the loss of COLA and the disadvantages of the North in the end.

So Brisbane have had this for the past decade?