Sydney Swans Academy

[liz]

Ok then if you want it and want the AFL to keep artifically supporting your club to keep you strong so they can inflate the next tv rights, then any academy players to be drafted should be done under the same formula as father-son. If you really want them then pay a reasonable price and you get them otherwise you miss out, after all you're not spending your own money so how can you lose.

All clubs should be allowed to establish acadamies if we want a fair and equal competition, only problem is the AFL doesn't want that because it means the media rights won't be worth as much money.

Huh? All academy players to be drafted will already be done so under the same formula as father-son.

 

[Slax]

Huh? All academy players to be drafted will already be done so under the same formula as father-son.

But still doesn't get at the basis of it, that if you want it pay for it. Sydney are the golden child of the AFL and the AFL will do everything it can to make sure they stay in the top 8 at the expense of a fair and equal competition. The AFL have to work out how to deal with a number of issues they have created by allowing clubs unfair advantages to the point where if they try any form of equalisation the biggest benefactors scream foul. Sydney are notorious for it along with Collingwood.

The AFL is no fairer than the EPL, it is now where the EPL was 20 years ago with haves, partial haves and have nots. We either need to run a bulldozer through it now to create a true equal playing field or what the game destroy itself in the next 20 years and give soccer a free pass to become the number one football code in this country.

 

[liz]

But still doesn't get at the basis of it, that if you want it pay for it. Sydney are the golden child of the AFL and the AFL will do everything it can to make sure they stay in the top 8 at the expense of a fair and equal competition. The AFL have to work out how to deal with a number of issues they have created by allowing clubs unfair advantages to the point where if they try any form of equalisation the biggest benefactors scream foul. Sydney are notorious for it along with Collingwood.

The AFL is no fairer than the EPL, it is now where the EPL was 20 years ago with haves, partial haves and have nots. We either need to run a bulldozer through it now to create a true equal playing field or what the game destroy itself in the next 20 years and give soccer a free pass to become the number one football code in this country.

That post doesn't reconcile that the mechanism you suggested for academy players - ie using the FS system - to make it fair(er) is exactly what is in place. I am confused.

 

[Slax]

That post doesn't reconcile that the mechanism you suggested for academy players - ie using the FS system - to make it fair(er) is exactly what is in place. I am confused.

Sorry, to make it clearer, all clubs should have the option and all clubs then should operate under teh f-s drafting rules.

I do have a few requirements though on academies and these include no recruiting of 17 year-olds, no payment to players or players immediately families (i.e. Tom Scully's father debacle) and a limit of 3 academy players at any one time. The 17 year-old rule is a double reason, it protects the draft from being manipulated by kids who break through a bit later being picked up, but also means clubs can't approach blokes in their final year of school.

Clubs found breaching the rules to be banned from round 1 of the draft. A heavy penalty, but you need a big stick to make people listen sometimes.

 

[TigerTime88]

Absolute rubbish that the Swans get this on top of COLA. At the end of the day the only reason zoning should exist is for clubs who are not old enough to have father son rights. Sydney have been round long enough to get plenty of F/S...Tom Mitchell being the perfect example. The fact that this year they can pick up a kid who is rated in the top 5 while potentially winning their 2nd flag in 3 years and signing Buddy and Tippett is an absolute joke. Not sure how other sides are meant to compete with all the leg ups they are getting.

 

[replicant]

Sorry, to make it clearer, all clubs should have the option and all clubs then should operate under teh f-s drafting rules.

I do have a few requirements though on academies and these include no recruiting of 17 year-olds, no payment to players or players immediately families (i.e. Tom Scully's father debacle) and a limit of 3 academy players at any one time. The 17 year-old rule is a double reason, it protects the draft from being manipulated by kids who break through a bit later being picked up, but also means clubs can't approach blokes in their final year of school.

Clubs found breaching the rules to be banned from round 1 of the draft. A heavy penalty, but you need a big stick to make people listen sometimes.

Why should clubs in AFL states get academies? You're focusing on the draft end of the formula, and ignoring the purpose. The purpose is to foster AFL growth in non-AFL regions. The school, U16, TAC, U18 comps in the AFL states already serve this purpose. There is no corresponding quality comp in NSW or QLD.

If St Kilda wanted to open an Acadmey in Nz, i'd say go for it. If WC or Freo want one in the NW of WA, go nuts. If Bulldogs want to open one in China, i'd say it's ambitious, but why not? But the idea of opening academies to develop kids who are already in advanced development systems is just silly.

And i think people are looking at the current Sydney situation in isolation, and not seeing the bigger picture. Look at it this way, if Sydney was terrible, and came in 4th last this year, would there be a problem with us using the F/S on Heeney? What about if Heeney was in the Lions academy? It'd be fine right? What about if we came 10th? Still paying pretty close to value, maybe out by 1-2 places, but people slide in drafts so it's impossible to say.

The only situation it becomes a problem is like now where the Swans are good, and we get a good draft upgrade. If it continues over a few years, yes it's a problem, but if it only happens once or twice, it's not really that big a deal. One or two high draft picks don't guarantee success, people are just blowing that out of proportion. If they did, Melbourne and Carlton would be premiers, instead they are rubbish.

Let's be realistic. People are up in arms and willing to chuck the academy system out just when it seems it's starting to work, because Sydney is going to get a pick 6ish instead of pick 16ish.

 

[Chaisa]

One idea I had (which is probably stupid but meh) is to perhaps have a limit to the amount of picks required to match a bid.

For example, say you had a limit of 5 picks, if someone bidded #10 when the club who had the rights to him had #12, the club with the rights would still get it. However say if someone bidded #3 when the clubs that had the rights to him had #18, then it's bad luck for the club.

Eliminates any potential unfairness from gaining a kid a lot later in the draft then what they should but still allows the club "some" reward for playing a major role in their development/having a club in their blood.

 

[BarneyBent]

One idea I had (which is probably stupid but meh) is to perhaps have a limit to the amount of picks required to match a bid.

For example, say you had a limit of 5 picks, if someone bidded #10 when the club who had the rights to him had #12, the club with the rights would still get it. However say if someone bidded #3 when the clubs that had the rights to him had #18, then it's bad luck for the club.

Eliminates any potential unfairness from gaining a kid a lot later in the draft then what they should but still allows the club "some" reward for playing a major role in their development/having a club in their blood.

Not a bad way of thinking, but I think it's far too much punishment. Maybe if it ONLY applied for first round selections. Even then I feel like the Academy club should have a way of securing the player. Maybe force them to use both their first and second picks on the player?

 

[TigerTime88]

Why should clubs in AFL states get academies? You're focusing on the draft end of the formula, and ignoring the purpose. The purpose is to foster AFL growth in non-AFL regions. The school, U16, TAC, U18 comps in the AFL states already serve this purpose. There is no corresponding quality comp in NSW or QLD.

If St Kilda wanted to open an Acadmey in Nz, i'd say go for it. If WC or Freo want one in the NW of WA, go nuts. If Bulldogs want to open one in China, i'd say it's ambitious, but why not? But the idea of opening academies to develop kids who are already in advanced development systems is just silly.

And i think people are looking at the current Sydney situation in isolation, and not seeing the bigger picture. Look at it this way, if Sydney was terrible, and came in 4th last this year, would there be a problem with us using the F/S on Heeney? What about if Heeney was in the Lions academy? It'd be fine right? What about if we came 10th? Still paying pretty close to value, maybe out by 1-2 places, but people slide in drafts so it's impossible to say.

The only situation it becomes a problem is like now where the Swans are good, and we get a good draft upgrade. If it continues over a few years, yes it's a problem, but if it only happens once or twice, it's not really that big a deal. One or two high draft picks don't guarantee success, people are just blowing that out of proportion. If they did, Melbourne and Carlton would be premiers, instead they are rubbish.

Let's be realistic. People are up in arms and willing to chuck the academy system out just when it seems it's starting to work, because Sydney is going to get a pick 6ish instead of pick 16ish.

100% they are and they are entitled to be.

The swans will most likely play in their 4th grand final in 10 years this year. They also currently look favorites to take out their 3rd flag in 10 yrs.

In the last 3 years they have won a flag, recruited a high profile FA on 1mil per year, then followed it up with recruiting possibly the biggest FA ever the following year on 1 mil plus using their COLA concessions. Then this year they could win the flag and pick up a guy who would otherwise go top 5, meaning a struggling club like Richmond, Carlton, Bulldogs ect miss out.

How about we stop worrying about growing the game in areas that people don't care and make a fair and even competition everywhere else? Can Richmond open an academy in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne....would have allowed us access to Jon Patton, Tom Boyd ect????

 

[Tippett2Goal]

100% they are and they are entitled to be.

The swans will most likely play in their 4th grand final in 10 years this year. They also currently look favorites to take out their 3rd flag in 10 yrs.

In the last 3 years they have won a flag, recruited a high profile FA on 1mil per year, then followed it up with recruiting possibly the biggest FA ever the following year on 1 mil plus using their COLA concessions. Then this year they could win the flag and pick up a guy who would otherwise go top 5, meaning a struggling club like Richmond, Carlton, Bulldogs ect miss out.

How about we stop worrying about growing the game in areas that people don't care and make a fair and even competition everywhere else? Can Richmond open an academy in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne....would have allowed us access to Jon Patton, Tom Boyd ect????

Except without the academy system this guy would be a rookie pick at best, and lost to the game at worst, and the Clubs like Richmond, Carlton, Bulldogs would be in exactly the same situation.

 

[SB70]

Not a bad way of thinking, but I think it's far too much punishment. Maybe if it ONLY applied for first round selections. Even then I feel like the Academy club should have a way of securing the player. Maybe force them to use both their first and second picks on the player?

I agree - to make the academies work long term we need to get players through them and onto lists (ideally as stars) so they are the model of the AFL pathway for young talented NSW and Qld kids but I think any advantage (real or perceived) puts the system at risk. As a Swans fan I hope we get Heeney and Mills and they are superstars but if they are bid very early first round and we get them at 16-18 it isn't fair and all the yelling is likely to lead to the end of the system. They are development tools and very different to equalisation measures.
There must to be a way to get the players to the club of the academy they are attached to without it being an advantage. I like the idea that if you get them 10 spots below bid in first round you drop 10 spots in round 2. Could do same in round 2.
I would be surprised if more than a handful of kids from the 4 academies get a first round bid in the next decade. I even doubt Heeney will be that much of a bargain (I guess less of a steal than Darcy Moore) but with this system he could be and that will fuel the hysteria.

 

[Tedeski]

Absolute rubbish that the Swans get this on top of COLA. At the end of the day the only reason zoning should exist is for clubs who are not old enough to have father son rights. Sydney have been round long enough to get plenty of F/S...Tom Mitchell being the perfect example. The fact that this year they can pick up a kid who is rated in the top 5 while potentially winning their 2nd flag in 3 years and signing Buddy and Tippett is an absolute joke. Not sure how other sides are meant to compete with all the leg ups they are getting.

But we have Derrickx!

Explain that!

 

[Theprofessional]

But still doesn't get at the basis of it, that if you want it pay for it. Sydney are the golden child of the AFL and the AFL will do everything it can to make sure they stay in the top 8 at the expense of a fair and equal competition. The AFL have to work out how to deal with a number of issues they have created by allowing clubs unfair advantages to the point where if they try any form of equalisation the biggest benefactors scream foul. Sydney are notorious for it along with Collingwood.

The AFL is no fairer than the EPL, it is now where the EPL was 20 years ago with haves, partial haves and have nots. We either need to run a bulldozer through it now to create a true equal playing field or what the game destroy itself in the next 20 years and give soccer a free pass to become the number one football code in this country.

Can't believe you're a moderator, just admit you don't understand entirely how the system works, you said it should have farther son bidding process on the players... it already has that. If every team had academies including those in Victoria than the draft would quickly become pointless, not to mention their is no use in academies in Victoria.

You haven't made a substantial point and you're just throwing out lovechild insults at the Swans, probably because you're bitter about the Lions not being the AFL's main priority.

The point of the draft is to encourage growth in NSW of AFL and to get more youngsters to play Australian Football, without this academy the players you're complaining about WOULDN'T be AFL standard players (by their own admission). Setting up academies in Victoria etc is pointless as the players are already being developed there.

Academies overseas/in areas without appropriate development of footballers makes sense to me, but those that want the system gone should;

Understand how the system works (you clearly don't) and not complain about the lack of talent in the AFL (Eddie).

System will no doubt tweaked in next couple seasons given it's appearing as if it might actually improve the quality of NSW draftees.

 

[Theprofessional]

100% they are and they are entitled to be.

The swans will most likely play in their 4th grand final in 10 years this year. They also currently look favorites to take out their 3rd flag in 10 yrs.

In the last 3 years they have won a flag, recruited a high profile FA on 1mil per year, then followed it up with recruiting possibly the biggest FA ever the following year on 1 mil plus using their COLA concessions. Then this year they could win the flag and pick up a guy who would otherwise go top 5, meaning a struggling club like Richmond, Carlton, Bulldogs ect miss out.

How about we stop worrying about growing the game in areas that people don't care and make a fair and even competition everywhere else? Can Richmond open an academy in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne....would have allowed us access to Jon Patton, Tom Boyd ect????

But there's no point of an academy in eastern suburbs of melbourne.

An academy in central Australia, overseas etc would have merit but in Victoria it's pretty pointless.

 

[replicant]

100% they are and they are entitled to be.

The swans will most likely play in their 4th grand final in 10 years this year. They also currently look favorites to take out their 3rd flag in 10 yrs.

In the last 3 years they have won a flag, recruited a high profile FA on 1mil per year, then followed it up with recruiting possibly the biggest FA ever the following year on 1 mil plus using their COLA concessions. Then this year they could win the flag and pick up a guy who would otherwise go top 5, meaning a struggling club like Richmond, Carlton, Bulldogs ect miss out.

How about we stop worrying about growing the game in areas that people don't care and make a fair and even competition everywhere else? Can Richmond open an academy in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne....would have allowed us access to Jon Patton, Tom Boyd ect????

You're just ranting now, and anyone who makes the COLA/Buddy Tippett part of this argument is struggling at best. Want to argue academies, fine. Want to add more uninformed and incorrect statements about the COLA, find the other 4 million threads on it and inform yourself before making stupid statements like "recruiting possibly the biggest FA ever the following year on 1 mil plus using their COLA concessions".

 

[replicant]

Nice one moron! Good to see you completely ignored my point about the academies then and just chose the point about COLA. My COLA point related to the reasoning behind the academies/COLA ect is really to ensure Swans are sucessful to grow the game in GWS. I think if you polled AFL supporters across the board none of them good give a rats about expanding the game in Sydney.

Must be a stupid statement for a premiership team an $800k FA and a $1MIL FA directly after winning a flag....makes heaps of sense!

Honestly man, i just spent 10 minutes writing a reply and explanation, but i just can't be bothered so i deleted it, and i'm not interested in trading insults. Bye.

 

[robbieando]

Must be a stupid statement for a premiership team an $800k FA and a $1MIL FA directly after winning a flag....makes heaps of sense!

So a Premiership team can't recruit a player/s if they Trade/Delist/Retire players that in total are greater in value than the two players you refer too over a two year period that opens up enough space to recruit said players. If you can't figure that VERY important part out, sorry but your too stupid for your own good

 

[Kummerspeck]

really to ensure Swans are sucessful to grow the game in GWS.

Just roll that around your head for a few minutes.

 

[Yoda_]

Can we move this thread to the Hot Topics board now Mods? this thread continues to go around in circles and adds NOTHING in regards to the actual Academy itself (apart from the odd post here & there).

 

[Justice]

... I think if you polled AFL supporters across the board none of them good give a rats about expanding the game in Sydney.

Would you prefer that the VFL remained the status quo? A Melbourne based competition with substandard suburban grounds, limited capacity for financial expansion and minimal television exposure? With the 'big four' using their historical dominance to ensure that the other 'lessor' clubs were kept in their place?

If there was a total lack of vision and long term strategic planning to 'grow the game' that is exactly were the VFL would have remained - mired in mediocrity. I am certain that South Melbourne and several other clubs would not exist without expansion. How many time would your Tigers have to resort to rattling the collection tins in 'Save or Skins' like campaigns?

So, if you are an AFL supporter and not just concerned with your clubs short term parochial interests, please consider the massive growth opportunities the academies offer in NSW and Queensland. By having Australian Football considered a legitimate sporting choice for talented athletes in these states - ALL clubs will eventually benefit.

Cheers
Justice

 

[Sydswans0512]

100% they are and they are entitled to be.

The swans will most likely play in their 4th grand final in 10 years this year. They also currently look favorites to take out their 3rd flag in 10 yrs.

In the last 3 years they have won a flag, recruited a high profile FA on 1mil per year, then followed it up with recruiting possibly the biggest FA ever the following year on 1 mil plus using their COLA concessions. Then this year they could win the flag and pick up a guy who would otherwise go top 5, meaning a struggling club like Richmond, Carlton, Bulldogs ect miss out.

How about we stop worrying about growing the game in areas that people don't care and make a fair and even competition everywhere else? Can Richmond open an academy in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne....would have allowed us access to Jon Patton, Tom Boyd ect????

Richmond would find a way to screw up their careers

 

[brad cooper]

If these academies end up a production line of Brownlow medalists then I'm sure the rules will change however last time I checked Brandon jack was the only swan to come thru this system.

 

[Tedeski]

We could win the next 4 p'ships & go down as the greatest team ever.

Geez I love all this jumping at Swan shadows.

Anything we do, the rest fret.

Embarrassing!

 

[Fade to Gray]

I can understand wanting to develop the game in the Northern states, but not at the expense of a even playing field. I don't see why the AFL can't fund the Academies, with no club granted special access. A club like Sydney does not need any more leg-ups.

The COLA is bad enough, but it is being disingenuous to claim that the players they delisted/traded were of greater value than Buddy and Kurt. Every club loses a few players at the end of a season, with the club winning a premiership there is normally an inflationary effect on the remaining players. There is a reason why premiership sides don't go on a massive recruiting splurge.

 

[SB70]

I can understand wanting to develop the game in the Northern states, but not at the expense of a even playing field. I don't see why the AFL can't fund the Academies, with no club granted special access. A club like Sydney does not need any more leg-ups.

The COLA is bad enough, but it is being disingenuous to claim that the players they delisted/traded were of greater value than Buddy and Kurt. Every club loses a few players at the end of a season, with the club winning a premiership there is normally an inflationary effect on the remaining players. There is a reason why premiership sides don't go on a massive recruiting splurge.

The thing most people miss in all this is that the team that won in 2012 wasn't the typical flag winning team - apart from Goodes and a few A graders was a team of recycled players, low draft picks and rookies. If we got Tippett before the flag I doubt we would have near the fuss.
As for Buddy that was just too good an opportunity to miss but a huge risk that presumably will cost some good players down the track - particularly if we win a couple more.