Sydney's record in grand finals needs scrutinising

[Deadly Assassin]

Here’s a list of teams that Joel Selwood is better than:
View attachment 1517558

I didn't realise Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions were two different clubs?

 

[Sky]

I didn't realise Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions were two different clubs?

Take that up with the legend who runs AFL Tables. Guy has contributed more to football statistics than you or I ever will.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

I think all clubs should be able to count premierships from all their history since their inception. The logic would be that you can only play in the competition you are in at the time. So in the dogs case, they would be 11 wins, 7 losses I think.

Carlton is around 22 premierships , but Port Adelaide has the most by far from Memory around 35.

St Kilda's record is the most tragic, especially when you count the wooden spoons too

Clubs are free to market themselves however they want. If a club wants to claim that they’ve won 11 flags because they won nine in the VFA between 1898 and 1924 while other clubs were busy playing in a higher division they can. There’s no one policing it. But they might lose a bit of respect.

 

[PonsfordMagpie]

So what does it look like IF we include replays?

Melbourne = 13/19 (68.4%)
Essendon = 14/29 (48.3%)
North Melbourne = 4/10 (40.0%)
Collingwood = 15/44 (34.1%)
St Kilda = 1/8 (12.5%)

 

[JohnZ]

It seems only mentally soft sides know for losing final such as Port Power, St Kilda, Collingwood and Sydney lose grand finals to Geelong

Don't seem to recall Richmond being in too many grand finals since the comp went national. I do remember them losing to 9th in a final however....

 

[PhatBoy]

Sydney's/South Melbourne's record in grand finals is pretty poor to say the least..

As South Melbourne... they won 3 grand finals while losing 8.

As Sydney... they've won 2 grand finals while losing 5.

Only Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton have lost as many or more grand finals.. and these are the three most successful clubs in V/AFL history when it comes to winning premierships.

Why haven't the Swans come under media scrutiny for their record in grand finals??

They were an inferior side to North in 1996 for all intents and purposes. Man for man they should be happy they split their grand finals with the eagles.
They were outsiders in 2012.
So at 2-3 (as Sydney) they had probably really overachieved. 2014 they had a fair shot and should have won 2016. They should have been closer yesterday but they were an inferior team. 3 might be about right if they’d managed it

 

[The Airing of Grievances]

Here’s a list of teams that Joel Selwood is better than:
View attachment 1517558

I hope Geelong posters aren't going to go all Richmond BF on us. Come on, you can be better than that!

 

[Sky]

I hope Geelong posters aren't going to go all Richmond BF on us. Come on, you can be better than that!

I’m all done being cocky matey!

 

[Freomaniac]

Don't seem to recall Richmond being in too many grand finals since the comp went national. I do remember them losing to 9th in a final however....

You would not want to be a Richmond fan between 1983 to 2012.

Since the final 8 system from 1994 onwards, They finished 9th in 1994, 1996, 1998 , 2000, 2006 and 2008. That's 6 times.

Turn those 9th placed spots into 8th and that's a bare minimum 6 finals they would of played.

Still.... Had that happen they would of had a solid run from 1990-2001 making finals In 1994-6, 1998 and 2000-01.

Guys like Matty Richardson, Brendan Gale, Wayne Campbell and Matty Knights careers would of been looked way better had that happened

 

[NewMelbournian]

Keep things in perspective. I think it is silly to scrutinise team number 2 more than teams 3-18. They were better than everyone except Geelong.

 

[Freomaniac]

Keep things in perspective. I think it is silly to scrutinise team number 2 more than teams 3-18. They were better than everyone except Geelong.

Really?

Well it was a horrific grand final.

Good for Geelong.

But again the Victorian team smashed the non Victorian side yet again.

Carlton are more likely..... Hell north, hell bloody Essendon will get a flag before the dockers , if the Dockers actually get one in my lifetime

 

[Bartel84]

Really?

Well it was a horrific grand final.

Good for Geelong.

But again the Victorian team smashed the non Victorian side yet again.

Carlton are more likely..... Hell north, hell bloody Essendon will get a flag before the dockers , if the Dockers actually get one in my lifetime

Why even bring the states into this… one team beat another team. It had nothing to do with where the respective sides come from.

 

[Defabs]

You would not want to be a Richmond fan between 1983 to 2012.

Since the final 8 system from 1994 onwards, They finished 9th in 1994, 1996, 1998 , 2000, 2006 and 2008. That's 6 times.

Turn those 9th placed spots into 8th and that's a bare minimum 6 finals they would of played.

Still.... Had that happen they would of had a solid run from 1990-2001 making finals In 1994-6, 1998 and 2000-01.

Guys like Matty Richardson, Brendan Gale, Wayne Campbell and Matty Knights careers would of been looked way better had that happened

You would not want to be a Richmond fan between 1983 to 2012.

Since the final 8 system from 1994 onwards, They finished 9th in 1994, 1996, 1998 , 2000, 2006 and 2008. That's 6 times.

Turn those 9th placed spots into 8th and that's a bare minimum 6 finals they would of played.

Still.... Had that happen they would of had a solid run from 1990-2001 making finals In 1994-6, 1998 and 2000-01.

Guys like Matty Richardson, Brendan Gale, Wayne Campbell and Matty Knights careers would of been looked way better had that happened

Good analysis. Tigers on paper were a pretty good side from 1994 to 2001. Bowden, Broderick, Gaspar, Daffy, Kellaway were all fine contributors too.

Richmond used to have the wood over Collingwood most of the time during that period. Our lowest score during AFL era (ex 2020) was 4.12 against Richmond in 1994.

They definitely underachieved and should have made the finals comfortably in nearly each of those years.

 

[The King!]

It's better than the 80s/90s I guess

even our wins were close though

2 flogging is a concern - though only 5 players and the coach involved in both

But seems a repeat.

I guess on one hand it's not the worst spot to be , better than not winning a final ever, but it's also bloody most embarrassing /heartbreaking

I guess unless you pack it in and go home you have to hope the club review and learn - do something different.

one thing to lose to the better side , another to just never be in it- which 2014 and 2022 both were

 

[The King!]

Really?

Well it was a horrific grand final.

Good for Geelong.

But again the Victorian team smashed the non Victorian side yet again.

Carlton are more likely..... Hell north, hell bloody Essendon will get a flag before the dockers , if the Dockers actually get one in my lifetime

it will happen

 

[MisterMarcus]

All the media are acting as the Geelong cheersquad.. ignoring the fact Sydney rolled over and turned up their toes yet again on the big stage!!!

Ah, so it's not really about Sydney's record, it's about you being pissy and salty about Geelong getting credit for winning.

A for honesty, I guess.

 

[The King!]

Ah, so it's not really about Sydney's record, it's about you being pissy and salty about Geelong getting credit for winning.

A for honesty, I guess.

a key part of how shit we were was the way geelong controlled the game start to finish

 

[Django]

He's referring to Collingwood's Grand Final record, but he formatted it incorrectly.

15 wins, 2 draws, 27 losses = 44 Grand Finals

It is impressive to have made so many Grand Finals. I love knocking on the Pies, but they are always giving themselves a chance. I read somewhere that they have never won a Grand Final when they didn't finish 1st or 2nd. It is a testament that they make Grand Finals that they probably shouldn't have, (given they were not in the top 2 teams for the season) rather than being poor in the big dance.

 

[Django]

Don't seem to recall Richmond being in too many grand finals since the comp went national. I do remember them losing to 9th in a final however....

Someone is up and about after the Grand Final! Enjoy the Cats flag, I know I enjoyed the Tigers in 17,19 and 20. Beat the Cats in all those years. Just need a Semi final win and we have the full set.

 

[JohnZ]

Someone is up and about after the Grand Final! Enjoy the Cats flag, I know I enjoyed the Tigers in 17,19 and 20. Beat the Cats in all those years. Just need a Semi final win and we have the full set.

Youd have to win an EF to make the semi

 

[Django]

Youd have to win an EF to make the semi

Given your current flag, and our recent finals dominance against you we can both be happy.

 

[Major Colvin]

All the OP poses the question in a silly way (i.e that Sydney should be held to scrutiny for GF's they lost 10+ years ago or as South Melbourne), the GF's losses on Longmire's watch do warrant scrutiny.

Sydney's 2014 GF was horrific from an experienced largely premiership team which finished top. Could probably write than one down to Hawthorn wanting revenge for 2012, hungry for back to back flags, playing against Franklin etc..

2016 GF - probably outplayed I felt but a bit unlucky.

2022 GF - not as bad as 2014 given it was a younger team, but the problem is really Sydney's senior players - Hickey's been in the system for over 10 seasons, Luke Parker

26

Luke Parker

Age

32

Ht

183cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.2

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.8

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.8

5star

D

22.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

9.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

5.0

5star

CL

5.5

5star

D

21.2

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

8.0

5star

CL

5.2

5star

is clearly not in the same realm as Joel Selwood as a leader. Picking another senior in Reid injured. I think criticism of Buddy a little unfair given lack of opportunities but like the rest he didnt really seem switched on.

If you put the Sydney's last three Grand Finals in focus and there's no doubt they've been poor - Longmire has even accepted responsibility for it. If they're able to get back to the GF next year I doubt it will play the same way again but of course, the challenge is getting there. Massive Grand Final defeats cause fractures within in clubs, bruise confidence and sap energy.

Day one of pre-season for Swans players will be bloody hard.

 

[The Tilt]

Ummm, wow.

So they're 3-8 and 2-5, overall 5-13

Here's a figure for you op if you want to 'scrutinize' a club

15-2-44. Pretty sure you'll work it out.

Not even sure how this is a thread.

Isn't 44 the number of GFs Collingwood have qualified for, rather than the number they've lost? i.e. they've only lost 29 (only!). Their GF winning ratio is better than the Swans'.

 

[The Tilt]

Grand Final winning % (excluding replays)

Brisbane Lions = 3/4 (75.0%)
Melbourne = 13/18 (72.2%)
Hawthorn = 13/19 (68.4%)
Adelaide = 2/3 (66.7%)
Fitzroy = 8/13 (61.5%)
West Coast = 4/7 (57.1%)
Carlton = 16/29 (55.2%)
Richmond = 13/24 (54.2%)
Geelong = 10/19 (52.6%)
Essendon = 14/28 (50.0%) - 1897 and 1924 didn't have a GF.
Western Bulldogs = 2/4 (50.0%)
Port Adelaide = 1/2 (50.0%)
North Melbourne = 4/9 (44.4%)
Collingwood = 15/42 (35.7%)
Sydney = 5/18 (27.8%) - includes South Melbourne record
St Kilda = 1/7 (14.3%)
Fremantle = 0/1 (0.0%)
GWS = 0/1 (0.0%)

Not trying to kick the Swans while they're down, but it's always surprised me this record doesn't get talked about more in the media compared to Collingwood and St Kilda for example.

I assume the relative lack of media discussion is just a case of the GF losses being mostly clustered in the first half of the 20th century i.e. the three-peat in the 1930s. That said, we're putting together a contemporary body of work, so we should expect the scrutiny to increase.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Isn't 44 the number of GFs Collingwood have qualified for, rather than the number they've lost? i.e. they've only lost 29 (only!). Their GF winning ratio is better than the Swans'.

Apologies 15-2-27 - 44

Minuscule amount better than the swans, still that amount of opportunity not seized grates and grates badly. Almost glad we didn't make it, the amount of losses is becoming a bit thin.

Any which you boil it down, it's probably one of the worst records in world sport.