Analysis System, buy in and talent

[jackcass]

Methink Scodog is underrating the talent level at the Crows and overstating the lack of system at the Giants based on one game.

Raw talent and depth of talent... it's a no-contest. GWS streets ahead of every other team in the league as evidenced by their capacity to continually lose quality players like Treloar and WHE while continuing to bring on the next candidate. Half their talents kids haven't even hit their prime yet.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Raw talent and depth of talent... it's a no-contest. GWS streets ahead of every other team in the league as evidenced by their capacity to continually lose quality players like Treloar and WHE while continuing to bring on the next candidate. Half their talents kids haven't even hit their prime yet.

Of course they haven't hit their prime yet. Still some upside. That's why for season 2017 at least the crows have them covered. Not because they have a poorer system.

 

[swoop42]

Perhaps Cameron is merely an average driver behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

 

[jackcass]

Of course they haven't hit their prime yet. Still some upside. That's why for season 2017 at least the crows have them covered. Not because they have a poorer system.

But the systems not only reflect the chemistry, cohesion, and ball movement, but they also ensure your team has the necessary talent, and the right age/experience profile. Adelaide have been building toward their current form for 4-5 years, it's no accident, it's design by systems. They've drafted well, brought in the right players to fill voids. GWS were always going to struggle to bed that down given they started from scratch and while they've added some good senior players from other clubs, it was always going to be the emerging kids that would take them to September glory. That doesn't mean they aren't the most talent laden squad in the league by a good measure. Their 2x top 10 picks from 2016 hardly got any game time despite the horrendous run of injuries they've endured this year.

 

[Countrypie]

Of course Adelaide are a talented group, but they aren't on the same level as GWS.

No one can compete with GWS on a talent basis. What Adelaide have done though is build the system that allows them to maximise the talent at their disposal. You can't be in the position they are 18 months on from losing a coach and the best player in the game (in the space of 6 months) without having a brilliant system.

The reality for me is that a strong system can cover for a lack of talent, but a strong level of talent can't cover a lack of system. Yes all ingredients are crucial for success, but the emphasis that has been placed on "talent" deficiencies at Collingwood recently is skewed. Especially when we are able to challenge good teams despite our terrible system. You don't do that when you lack talent. We just need to be wise come trade/ draft time.

The problem is I just don't see the end game with this football department. Give them Adelaide's list for example and there's no way they'd have it top 2, IMO. Give our list to the Adelaide FD and it makes the 8...

I'm with you all the way on this with one BUT......
Consistency is a key ingredient.
A core group that plays together for several years is going t be better than a group of talented individuals still learning the system.
Three years ago, I don't think anyone knew who our best 22 were, nor did we have any real idea of what our game plan was.
I think we're a lot closer to knowing now.

I don't think turnover for turnovers sake is going to get the job done.

The core group must be kept together and supplemented with role players on a needs basis.

That's what Adelaide have done. Their core group has been kept together and they've barely missed a beat losing Danger. SYstem is everything, I agree but it needs time to bed down and settle.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[MarkT2]

Adelaide has a talented team no doubt, they wouldn't be in the position they're in if they didn't, but I think you're understating the talent available to GWS. They're stacked on every line. Adelaide may have one or two players on each line that would slot in to the GWS 22, but by and large you'd take GWS' list over Adelaides every day of the week if you were looking at it from a pure talent perspective. And last night they were really made to look second rate by an incredibly well drilled Adelaide side. I'd kill for our list to be that well drilled. We'd be pushing top 4 if we were, even with our glaring holes.

I would love the GWS list. Whether it is ready to win flag yet I am not sure. I am sure Adelaide's is. Whether it will ever be ready, or whether it has the right composition, I am also unsure about. All premiers have heart and soul hard working players that sacrifice for the team. That's as much about personality as it is system. One problem with drafting so many start juniors is that they generally don't have to sacrifice much for the team when they were junior players. The team was generally built around allowing their talents to shine. Look at how many ex rookies we had in 2010 or how many Sydney have now.

I honestly don't see us as top 4 list regardless of coach or system. Line us up man for man with Adelaide. Where do we have them covered. How many of our players would walk into Adelaide's side. Pendlebury definitely. Treloar probably. Moore - maybe. Reid at his best but he hasn't been that for a while. Wells if fit.

 

[Quicky]

On system, i'm concerned Harvey is moving back into the midfield coaching role. He did a good job with the backline this year and I felt he finally found his role in the coaching group. When he was previously midfield coach we were pretty lacklustre in there. Why mess with it when it's working in the backline?

I really hope we bring in someone that has a proven coaching record in improving ball movement.

 

[MrStealYourGirl]

I would love the GWS list. Whether it is ready to win flag yet I am not sure. I am sure Adelaide's is. Whether it will ever be ready, or whether it has the right composition, I am also unsure about. All premiers have heart and soul hard working players that sacrifice for the team. That's as much about personality as it is system. One problem with drafting so many start juniors is that they generally don't have to sacrifice much for the team when they were junior players. The team was generally built around allowing their talents to shine. Look at how many ex rookies we had in 2010 or how many Sydney have now.

I honestly don't see us as top 4 list regardless of coach or system. Line us up man for man with Adelaide. Where do we have them covered. How many of our players would walk into Adelaide's side. Pendlebury definitely. Treloar probably. Moore - maybe. Reid at his best but he hasn't been that for a while. Wells if fit.

Pendlebury, Treloar, Wells, Sidebottom and Adams would all be in their best 22 over guys like Knight, Mackay, Atkins and Greenwood. Potentially Howe over Kelly as well and I'm sure Elliot would find a spot. Our raw talent isn't too bad, it's the system that lets us down.

 

[Moral Decay]

Hi fellas, not here to stir anything up, I've got a mate that's a Collingwood supporter, and there's a few things we discuss that seem relevant.
Firstly that, football is a people industry and the coaches job is to get the best out of the talent he has at hand.

As far as system is concerned, the system has to revolve around the list, sure you can make changes to get a group but the list needs to be balanced, without a balanced list then the system needs to be absolute to get the best out the players, the system also needs a plan B, and more than any thing these two seem lacking. If anyone is even a little off the system breaks down; if the opposition break the system down there is either no plan B or the players aren't adequate to implement plan B.

When talking about buy in it's the coaches job to convince the players not the other way round, sure Bucks lives and breathes football, but it seems that the only players he wants are clones of himself, I look at the example of Nathan Brown, while a limited player, and lets face it there are few that aren't limited, he was what 28 a premiership player, he is and was good enough to play AFL but he left saying that his relationship with the club was irrevocably broken and left for $150,000 which Collingwood refused to match. Buy in isn't just the game plan it's buy in to the club and Collingwood seem to value Buckley at the expense of every one else.

Talent; with an unbalanced list, not enough tall forwards and tall defenders, limited system and questions on buy in (game plan and player happiness), you can have the greatest talent on earth and I don't think it will matter.

I'm fascinated to see if Collingwood try a short term 2 year fix or go for a longer term fix, and how they will implement their strategies. Best of luck.

 

[MagpieBat]

On system, i'm concerned Harvey is moving back into the midfield coaching role. He did a good job with the backline this year and I felt he finally found his role in the coaching group. When he was previously midfield coach we were pretty lacklustre in there. Why mess with it when it's working in the backline?

I really hope we bring in someone that has a proven coaching record in improving ball movement.

Has that been confirmed?

 

[Quicky]

Has that been confirmed?

No. Just the Macaffer tweet.

 

[Anzacday]

No. Just the Macaffer tweet.

I think that was a joke.
He said midfield coach at Killy Bass - Kilcunda Bass being the club Caff came from.

 

[MagpieBat]

No. Just the Macaffer tweet.

I just interpreted that as a joke about Harvey becoming midfield coach for Caff's club Kilcunda-Bass (Caff coaches them)...

EDIT: Thank you, Anzacday...

 

[Quicky]

Okay cool. Well that's good news then. I hope Harvey stays as our defensive coach. We performed well there this year. I was actually okay with us retaining Harvey based on the year he had. Sanderson is the one i'm not keen is staying but it's difficult as he's contracted.

 

[MarkT2]

Pendlebury, Treloar, Wells, Sidebottom and Adams would all be in their best 22 over guys like Knight, Mackay, Atkins and Greenwood. Potentially Howe over Kelly as well and I'm sure Elliot would find a spot. Our raw talent isn't too bad, it's the system that lets us down.

Sidebottom probably but Adams - not a chance. They have plenty of ball winners and they are better runners and better kicks than Adams. The problem with the list you have is that they are nearly all mids and not all of them get in together. Individually yes but collectively no.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Our list is filled with average players and we have not been able to develop the necessary skills since the early 2000s. We must invest in player development; an outstanding, well resourced development team is priority one in my opinion.

This cannot be underestimated, somewhere previously someone noted the 02 03 team punching well above it's weight. That was a result of outstanding development and a system that suited the talent - much like Richmond and Adelaide are doing now. We're doing the same as gws - wasting talent through extremely poor development. IMV our list far from playing to it's potential and until we work on improving the cattle we have instead of trying to draft / trade talent in we'll stay where we are or more likely bottom out completely

 

[Carringbush2010]

I agree we wouldn't be as good as Adelaide with their list - we actually had it (or equivalent). Adelaide may get our list into the 8 but it would be marginal at best.

Disagree, they would develop our list to a point of much improvement. Sure our talent is not the crows but it could be a lot lot closer if it was developed better.

Make no mistake our list and basically anyone else's is mainly differed because of our shitty development - it's a lot closer than you think

 

[Carringbush2010]

Perhaps Cameron is merely an average driver behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

I think that's an obvious, I'd argue we'd be worse under Leon than Nathan

 

[Quicky]

Disagree, they would develop our list to a point of much improvement. Sure our talent is not the crows but it could be a lot lot closer if it was developed better.

Make no mistake our list and basically anyone else's is mainly differed because of our shitty development - it's a lot closer than you think

Hopefully there are some positive additions to the player development and welfare department this off season. I'd start by appointing a Football Development Manager and finally replacing McRae, which we should have done when he left. I'd also like us to look at assistant coaches with a development background.

 

[Carringbush2010]

System - it's an inconsistent basket case, when we see Nathans vision applied it is unbeatable and exhiliarating. The problem seems to be it's unsustainablity. We haven't developed the list to execute it properly and therefore do not have the talent to pull it off over 4 quarters let alone a season. We need to be hawthorn type to execute it week in week out and to get there that means list management and development, I know I continually bang on about development but I cannot stress how important this is

Buy in - there is no question that Nathan has belief from his group

Talent - again, development our current list could be so much better I'm more than convinced we'd have better skills, decision making and physical endurance if this was addressed. A KPF is the most glaring hole we have from a list management perspective, Moore is continually carrying the can week in and week out and he needs a mature buddy up there. Our defence is punching above it's weight and the long term hinges on the development of McClarty and Mackie

Get our development right in the off season and we win another 5 - 6 next year, of that I am convinced

 

[Carringbush2010]

Hopefully there are some positive additions to the player development and welfare department this off season. I'd start by appointing a Football Development Manager and finally replacing McRae, which we should have done when he left. I'd also like us to look at assistant coaches with a development background.

I like this idea of an FD manager! someone with strong leadership skills and won't take any bs - something we need right now; and also line coaches with a good record of development is invaluable!

Reckon you could ring Ed and co-erce him?

 

[MarkT2]

Disagree, they would develop our list to a point of much improvement. Sure our talent is not the crows but it could be a lot lot closer if it was developed better.

Make no mistake our list and basically anyone else's is mainly differed because of our shitty development - it's a lot closer than you think

I think our lack of development starts with a lack of ability. We've drafted mid paced poor kicks lacking in footy smarts. That's not to say that development doesn't need attention but there is only so much you can do with what God left out. Fix everything else but the actually playing stocks and maybe we make the 8 but there is no prospect this list can win a flag. It just isn't good enough

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think our lack of development starts with a lack of ability

This does not make sense, ability in part comes from good teaching and improving your skills. Sure you could argue things like foot speed and general athleticism but skills and footy smarts are things that are improved by coaches - that's their job. To say poor development is a in part due to lack of ability is like putting the cart before the horse.

To me it sounds like you're saying a player has an amount of talent that cannot be improved (developed) and that is just not true, to me I can see a lot on our list that will improve immensely with good teaching

 

[MarkT2]

This does not make sense, ability in part comes from good teaching and improving your skills. Sure you could argue things like foot speed and general athleticism but skills and footy smarts are things that are improved by coaches - that's their job. To say poor development is a in part due to lack of ability is like putting the cart before the horse.

To me it sounds like you're saying a player has an amount of talent that cannot be improved (developed) and that is just not true, to me I can see a lot on our list that will improve immensely with good teaching

Why haven't we developed KP players? We just haven't drafted or traded for enough good ones.
Why do we lack pace? That isn't development.
Why do we kick so poorly? That's in part a development issue but it's a skill issue first and foremost Pendlebury will always be a better kick than Adams because he was blessed with more skill. Decision making is able to be improved but if you start with intelligence and footy smarts you need less development and you end up better in most cases. There are always exceptions.

The 2010 premiership is a classic illustration. A career of development and we didn't improve in the ruck until Jolly replaced Fraser. We didn't improve sufficiently in the midfield until Thomas and Pendlebury replaced O'Bree and Lockyer and the likes of Wellingham, became the bottom end. We improved our pace and footskills - which is what we need to do now. Ball wasn't better developed at St Kilda than anyone at Collingwood he was just better at what we needed him to do. The same coaches didn't develop the new players better than the old ones we just got better players to develop.

You can't make good wine from rubbish grapes. Development is vital without question but 100% you need to start with the raw ingredients to win a flag.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Pendlebury will always be a better kick than Adams

That's true but to suggest that Adams cannot improve is folly

Why do we kick so poorly?

Because the skills are not being developed, if you think we cannot improve or develop this area then I'd disagree with you

Why haven't we developed KP players?

Good question, if we would have we'd be in a better position wouldn't we?

I agree there are some gaps between players that development won't bridge, but it still sounds like you have no hope of improvement in our skills, decision making and physical preparation through good coaching (development) and only trading in already better skilled players will fix our problems and I disagree