Analysis System, buy in and talent

[Scodog10]

That's very fair points.
Having both etc.
Brown playing continuously, fair call hence for St Kilda.

I'm quietly looking forward to seeing what McLarty can bring to the table next season, will he show enough.
Will he offer glimpses of a long term key back player, etc.

It's one of my fascinations for next season.

Yep ok though in that case I'd probably prefer Goodyear to have been on the list this year.... I dont think its good to delist anybody after just two seasons unless theres a really good reason. That said I'm sure Bucks isnt the first to do it and wont be the last. And Goodyear simply wasnt going to make it anyway....where is he anyway?

Generally it doesnt happen although Ceglar is another I can recall. There were certainly rumours about him being a loose cannon though. And he was surplus to ruck needs.

Brown was offered a LOT more ....an extra year more. Perhaps the annual salary wasnt a great increase if any.....but Dunn has come to Collingwood on less than Brown was on so the salary cap pickup is also reasonably significant. Simply put Collingwood didnt match StKildas offer because the tenure wasnt worth it for a player who cant kick run or handball particularly well. We were half hearted quite rightly because his salary and tenure didnt match his abilities. We have missed him just a few times this year and have been better without him (in terms of defensive creativity) a lot more than a few times.

As for failing to quiote, apologies.....despite theories of others on this board theres no conspiracy or tactics on it....juts sheer laziness and assumption that there be nobody else posting before i get my reply posted.

I guess as the creator of the thread I should probably bring it back to system, buy in and talent.

I'm confident that our rate of list rotation hasn't improved our output in any of those areas, but just because your views don't align with mine doesn't mean they aren't correct in their own way because it's all subjective.

FWIW I'm likewise inclined with McLarty SV.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

OK on topic

System = jury out. This will determine Buckleys fate. Does he have the system around him (recruiting,coaching,injury management) and does he have the system on the ground (game plan, player development etc )...and how much of that if any is fixed by replacing the senior coach.
Buy In = despite what may have happened in the past I think the players now respect Buckley and are working with and for him.Will that be enough to save him?
Talent = not a million miles away in my opinion. Just need a kpp to build the side around, as well as maximising output from existing talent. Not fussed which end of the ground our star recruit KPP plays but given We have Moore to build around at one end, perhaps a KPD is a greater priority.

 

[Jasper84]

As far as current models go, Adelaide is the club we should be striving to use as a template. In recent times, they had top players poached by expansion clubs and got nothing in return (Bock, Davis). Been banned from the draft because of Tippet who they also lost for nothing. Lost the best player in the league for sub par compensation and had to deal with the grief of losing their coach mid season.

During this time, the lowest they have finished was 15th (2010) and even then their pick was bumped down to 14 by the expansion clubs.

They make the most out of their low profile trades like Lynch, Jenkinks and Jacobs and as I mentioned earlier are savvy with their late picks and rookie selections.

Off the field, they are financially well off, retain a rabid fan base and have a stable operations group.

 

[MarkT2]

Huh? I'm confused. Beams left to be with his ill father. Can Shaw cure cancer?

He can save gaols like a librarian but cancer would be a stretch. I'm just quoting Beams. It was Beams that said Shaw's exit was a factor in him being unhappy. It it was simply his father you would think he would have turned up to the Copeland.

 

[Darkyprotector]

That's a fair point, perhaps they have a stronger culture.

Or maybe they get a home ground advantage (how many wins more), a easier draw and of course the recruitment of Dangerfield(go home factor)
We meanwhile have NO home ground advantage, perscecuted by the draw and recruit a kid.
Next year we get a 13 to 18 (richmond) draw , this year our 2 games against dons (no 1 draft pick and 8 new recruits). , 2 against carlton , imagine we get SUNS and roos or lions instead.
Answer were in finals and Bucks WOULD have a great coaching record .Couple this with 2 top 10 choices not getting on the park and SWENGALIs legacy demanding transition of players , we are where we should be (4 under 12 point loses from top 4) at the moment.I hope he is reappointed and we can GALVANISE our masses behind the club ,the coach and our young guns.
We lack ledership on field , confidence and its damming that DUNNEY had to rouse the troops, but with a easier draw , luck with injuries and 2 good recruits were top 4 next year .
Would maybe shut a few up who are feeding/ bought in to this media driven frenzy.

 

[Darkyprotector]

Bringing in a 32 year old with injury concerns on a big contract for three years is not good practice.

we do need to spend 95% of cap
we have plenty in the kitty, with only 6 guys over 500k , 14 guys on 100k- 150k.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

He can save gaols like a librarian but cancer would be a stretch. I'm just quoting Beams. It was Beams that said Shaw's exit was a factor in him being unhappy. It it was simply his father you would think he would have turned up to the Copeland.

Freudian slip?

A few of his mates have been lucky to avoid gaol over the years

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

we do need to spend 95% of cap
we have plenty in the kitty, with only 6 guys over 500k , 14 guys on 100k- 150k.

And only one player aged 30 or more

 

[Darkyprotector]

As far as current models go, Adelaide is the club we should be striving to use as a template. In recent times, they had top players poached by expansion clubs and got nothing in return (Bock, Davis). Been banned from the draft because of Tippet who they also lost for nothing. Lost the best player in the league for sub par compensation and had to deal with the grief of losing their coach mid season.

During this time, the lowest they have finished was 15th (2010) and even then their pick was bumped down to 14 by the expansion clubs.

They make the most out of their low profile trades like Lynch, Jenkinks and Jacobs and as I mentioned earlier are savvy with their late picks and rookie selections.

Off the field, they are financially well off, retain a rabid fan base and have a stable operations group.

seem to pick up a heck of a lot of CALDER Cannons

 

[barrackers]

The contrasting game plans on Saturday showed how talent is impacted by game plans. Fast footy and our young players looked improved, a slow ugly arm wrestle and our talent looked ugly. Ugly footy worked for Ross Lyon and a team of hard working plodders, but it doesn't suit our current group.

 

[jmac70]

we do need to spend 95% of cap
we have plenty in the kitty, with only 6 guys over 500k , 14 guys on 100k- 150k.

Have we improved from last year?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Have we improved from last year?

We have when Wells has been on the park.

 

[jmac70]

We have when Wells has been on the park.

That's damning for the rest of the team.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

That's damning for the rest of the team.

I thought you were talking about Wells.

Persoanally I think there are many things we have improved on this year. But thats in the eye of the beholder.

 

[jmac70]

I thought you were talking about Wells.

Persoanally I think there are many things we have improved on this year. But thats in the eye of the beholder.

I'd be interested to know which things.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I'd be interested to know which things.

If I told you I'd have to shoot you

 

[General Soreness]

I really like the system/talent/buy-in triad as a prism through which to examine the (a) club. What the discussion of the club through this triad leads me to wonder about is that we seem to have a strong buy-in by players to a system that is, on the face of it, failing. I can't help wondering what the players are seeing. Is there something there that we are missing, or are they being shown or are willing to see a mirage?

 

[jmac70]

Don't get me wrong, there are encouraging signs and some individual improvements but on a team level it is difficult to see meaningful progress. For example, we have had more possessions than just about any team but also lead the way in turnovers. Just like last year we are capable of matching it with good sides but cannot sustain it for four quarters.

 

[Pies2017]

Don't get me wrong, there are encouraging signs and some individual improvements but on a team level it is difficult to see meaningful progress. For example, we have had more possessions than just about any team but also lead the way in turnovers. Just like last year we are capable of matching it with good sides but cannot sustain it for four quarters.

Are they related, taking more risk to try and maintain possession? I still don't think we have the talent to play Hawthorn's (from a few years ago) pin point kicking game, but I guess it's a positive that we're taking the game on and not just being reactionary, that'd probably be more infuriating. I swear we seem to telegraph a lot of our play/decisions, maybe it's just because I watch the Pies more closely and expect better. But this telegraphing looks to me to add to turnovers/intercepts.

 

[MarkT2]

Freudian slip?

A few of his mates have been lucky to avoid gaol over the years

Ha, good pick up. Scaley mates....

 

[Schraderbrau]

i am mystified at the Nathan Brown angst if it is still occurs today.

What we now know, who would now prefer Nathan Brown over Dunn?

I'd take Dunn without hestitation.

I acknowledge Browns contribution, did well, but don't see him being more than ok for St Kilda.
Wish him well, but whether we meant to or not, we got out of jail by getting Dunn.

Marsh? It's a great pity for him and us, but my understanding, for his well being a return home was the healthy consideration.

The most telling point, which is often forgotten, is each club* roughly gets on pick in each 18 picks, year on year.
There really is a lot of chance, so a club can think these five players are perfect for us but only get 1 of them.

*AFL Giants were given well over the odds by loaded picks.

Hindsight is 20/20 though. I wonder how many people would have said Brown for Dunn was a win for us at this time last season.

 

[Schraderbrau]

Buy-in is overrated and has been used by the press recently as a justification for Buckley keeping his job. I'd suggest that the position of any coach that doesn't have the buy in of his players is untenable. That our players are supporting the coach and putting the effort most weeks makes us no different to most teams in the comp and should be the absolute minimum expectation.

It also distracts from what we should really be talking about which is system and talent, and neither of these reflect well on the coach.

In terms of system, we have no stability. Whether we've won or lost the week before has too much of a bearing on how the team structures up the next week. There is no magic potion that will turn us into a good team overnight. We're a young team with no identity. The identity is built from our young (and senior) players playing the same position week after week. Improvement should be measured by looking at a block of form across 4-5 weeks at an absolute minimum. Young players should not be yo-yoing between the ones and twos every week, and senior players need to know what position they play. Is Cox a ruck or forward - if he's a forward play him for a month in the forwardline. Is De Goey a mid or forward? Greenwood tagger etc? How many players in our best 22 can we say with absolute certainty have a position set in stone? About the most disheartening thing to see as a Collingwood supporter is to see guys like Cox and Reid spend the whole preseason training to play in a certain position and then after a loss or two seeing 6 months of planning scrapped by them either being dropped or moved to the other end of the ground. I'd be interested to see how the current set up of the team matches up with what they planned for at the beginning of the preseason.

And then there is really stupid stuff like why are guys like Blair, Smith and even Varcoe still getting games. They've had plenty of chances but it's fair to say they're not going to around in the medium term when it matters. Their selection isn't even going to impact that much on our ability because they're just not that good a players. Why are guys like Broomhead, Aish, Daicos, Ramsey running around in the 2nds every week at these guys expense. It's weird.

Systems/gameplans whatever you want to call them are organic things which take many years to grow. Buckley has had 5 years to grow his and we still don't really know what it is. Do we really want to give him a couple of more years with that record?

The list is good imo - I'd guess its between 6-10 best in the AFL as it currently stands. But as it currently stands we also have a bunch of players who I think are underachieving and I largely place that at the shoes of our coaches.

So:
Buy-in - yes
System - 4/10
List - 7 but with considerable scope for improvement.

The interaction between "system" and "list" is why Buckley has to go. Giving him one season is about the worst thing we can do and he hasn't done enough to justify a 2-3 year contract. Nobody could criticise the club for not giving him an opportunity but it needs to be understood that the end of the season represents a fork in the road for Collingwood. We can continue with mediocrity and see key players like Sidebottom, Reid, Pendlebury retire without playing another final. Alternatively we can radically shake things up in time to see those players play key roles in a deep run into September. The clock is ticking though and we can't afford any more wasted years with an unimaginative, risk averse coach.

After thinking about a bit I think the most important thing to take from the last few years is that there isn't just one or two areas that we are doing poorly at as a football team. Mediocrity has percolated into most aspects of the football department whether it be development, injury prevention, skills, gameplan, selection. It's all below par.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Hindsight is 20/20 though. I wonder how many people would have said Brown for Dunn was a win for us at this time last season.

Many at this time last season said Brown's offer from StKilda wasnt worth matching.

 

[Brad Goodman]

I heard Chris Fagan on SEN this morning mention how good Richmond's system was and how it fits with the capabilities of their list.

I reckon we should make Caracella an offer.

 

[Run n Spread]

Talent - A++. Best mid in the comp. Few holes in defence and a glaring one in attack. But look at last years off season. Will be turbo charged again and a few good FAs/Trades you can leap into contention very quickly. Alternatively can blow it all.

Buy In - B. Yes they all play for Bucks but the level of inconsistency even in games is a worry. Need some wins to gain full confidence in everything.

System - F. From the footy department, fitness, game plan, board whole thing has been a shambles this year. No cohesion across departments, stalling reviews, recruitment of Mayne, n trades for KPF/blooding of someone else bar Moore players unfit/out bodied and Bucks left to carry it all in the Pressers. Needs urgent attention.