Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[CBombers17]

The midfield is too soft around contests to not be tagging. Backing the midfield head-to-head against the better teams simply won't work. Danger should have been tagged, Neale should have been tagged, Petracca should be tagged, Dusty should be tagged, Bont should be tagged etc. If they're not going to recruit tall and/or heavy mids to protect the players around contests, then at least take the best mid out of the game so the midfield battle becomes a little more even.

This week is probably as bad as it gets in terms of midfield match ups so Rutten has a lot of work to do.

I guess the other problem is who the tagger will be. Not sure who can play that role effectively.

Not sure stopping the real midfield beasts is either doable or the real problem.. let's face it we have one of our own at times in Stringer and stopping him isn't really an option. I do think we get found out in terms of the rest of the mids being outmuacled overall. We are still too small across the group IMO.

Some of the gut running tonight by both sides is another area I think we are a level below the better midfields. Admittedly it's only based on the eye test but Bulldogs and Sydney were clearly both prepared to work very hard through the middle of the ground tonight (both ways). Not sure we've had players with that ethic or ability since Jobe retired. Then there's performances like Geelong where it stood out like dogs balls that we weren't going to work hard. I don't watch opposition teams consistently enough to really know, but I strongly doubt -say a Swans midfield - has put in as shit an effort as that for a very long time. Assuming we are fit enough then perhaps this problem is a lack of leadership in the midfield.

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[ant555]

The midfield is too soft around contests to not be tagging. Backing the midfield head-to-head against the better teams simply won't work. Danger should have been tagged, Neale should have been tagged, Petracca should be tagged, Dusty should be tagged, Bont should be tagged etc. If they're not going to recruit tall and/or heavy mids to protect the players around contests, then at least take the best mid out of the game so the midfield battle becomes a little more even.

This week is probably as bad as it gets in terms of midfield match ups so Rutten has a lot of work to do.

I guess the other problem is who the tagger will be. Not sure who can play that role effectively.

Yet they beat Brisbane in contested footy and Brisbane are a contested footy side. Neale got away on the back of a bit of patchy team defense but at the end of the day kick your set shots and do not miss simple handball and you win the game.

 

[JayJ20]

Yet they beat Brisbane in contested footy and Brisbane are a contested footy side. Neale got away on the back of a bit of patchy team defense but at the end of the day kick your set shots and do not miss simple handball and you win the game.

Yeah in the first 2 quarters. What about the second half when the game was there to be won? Brisbane won contested footy 78-61.
We started the game winning the clearances 12-2 in the first quarter. It was 18-35 Brisbane's way for the last 3 quarters.

We may dominate for one or two quarters, but we cannot sustain it. Good sides are able to dominate for 4 quarters.

 

[ant555]

Yeah in the first 2 quarters. What about the second half when the game was there to be won? Brisbane won contested footy 78-61.
We started the game winning the clearances 12-2 in the first quarter. It was 18-35 Brisbane's way for the last 3 quarters.

We may dominate for one or two quarters, but we cannot sustain it. Good sides are able to dominate for 4 quarters.

Still does not change the fact that if we kicked a few more of the easy set shots we lose by a couple of goals or maybe just win. We had more inside 50 as well.
Not saying we do not need one more big body because we do .

We are a developing side. This sort of stuff happens.

 

[JayJ20]

Still does not change the fact that if we kicked a few more of the easy set shots we lose by a couple of goals or maybe just win. We had more inside 50 as well.
Not saying we do not need one more big body because we do .

We are a developing side. This sort of stuff happens.

But you can also argue that our midfield let us down and allowed Brisbane easy entries inside 50. Stop a couple of those and we either lose by a couple of goals or we win. If we don’t get smashed in clearances after quarter time, we may have won the game.

Many developing sides have areas of strengths and areas of weaknesses. I’m not against that. But Essendon’s weakness has been the same for a long time. This issue cannot be fixed this season because we don’t have the personnel to do so.

I just hope we actually learn from the last couple of weeks and address it in the off-season instead of deluding ourselves into believing we have a good contested side.

 

[faible]

Danger should have been tagged, Neale should have been tagged, Petracca should be tagged, Dusty should be tagged, Bont should be tagged etc.

I guess the other problem is who the tagger will be.

hmm.

 

[faible]

AFL tables has us younger than Carlton and Hawthorn.

I assume it should be from the same data, perhaps footywire doesn't count the sub (e.g. Wanganeen vs Tom Phillips) in the average and AFL tables does?

Lore might know?

 

[Lore]

I assume it should be from the same data, perhaps footywire doesn't count the sub (e.g. Wanganeen vs Tom Phillips) in the average and AFL tables does?

Lore might know?

AFL Club Lists for 2022 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

Footywire for game by game but draft guru is good for looking at the entire list.

 

[faible]

AFL Club Lists for 2022 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

Footywire for game by game but draft guru is good for looking at the entire list.

That's whole list, not game by game which is what we're looking at to see the discrepancy.

Either way it's a minor difference when it's down to a couple of months or games on average. Not like the 25 odd games we were giving away to Brisbane.

 

[Lore]

That's whole list, not game by game which is what we're looking at to see the discrepancy.

Either way it's a minor difference when it's down to a couple of months or games on average. Not like the 25 odd games we were giving away to Brisbane.

The AFL app used to have stuff like that for each game showing how many games of experience were omitted or added to the side, but as with anything halfway decent, they got rid of it. Footywire is probably the place for game by game selected 22 analysis.

If you have something really specific that you want to look at I can probably download the data from the sheets on the trade board and compare age/height/contract status etc. for selected players. Ultimately it's just numbers though, so idk if you'll get much more out of that compared to footywire.

Resource - FAQs: Rules, Regulations and Resources for Player Movements in the AFL

List sizes Club age and height profiles Salary cap information Trading rules including salary dumps Father/son & academy draft bids Free agency compensation formula & more

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Zach Package]

It's unfortunate that the new evolution of those defensive minded players are the exact kind of players we don't draft/don't know how to draft/don't know how to develop.

They're all 188cm thick headed chunguses that can run like Berry, Menegola, Greenwood, Hewett, Drew, Brayshaw, Curnow et al and I don't think we've ever had a player like that. Just one player like that would make the world of difference, they wouldn't have to be worldies.

I continue to be annoyed that effort and that pressure blitz style that makes us good when we are good is not a week in, week out thing that actually makes us a good football team.

I actually think there's been a big of a paradigm shift in the last 18 months in recruiting but it's too early to tell.

 

[JayJ20]

hmm.

I already said that we don’t have the personnel. They should have been tagged, but I’m not saying we have a tagger on our list. Our strategy is to back our midfield, which is fine if we address our midfield imbalance. If we’re not going to do that, then we should at least develop someone to tag. At the moment, we’re neither here nor there. My preference is to back our midfield and develop/recruit one or two big bodied mids to fix the imbalance, but it doesn’t seem like our recruiters/coaches have the same idea.

 

[JayJ20]

It's unfortunate that the new evolution of those defensive minded players are the exact kind of players we don't draft/don't know how to draft/don't know how to develop.

They're all 188cm thick headed chunguses that can run like Berry, Menegola, Greenwood, Hewett, Drew, Brayshaw, Curnow et al and I don't think we've ever had a player like that. Just one player like that would make the world of difference, they wouldn't have to be worldies.

I continue to be annoyed that effort and that pressure blitz style that makes us good when we are good is not a week in, week out thing that actually makes us a good football team.

I actually think there's been a big of a paradigm shift in the last 18 months in recruiting but it's too early to tell.

I’d say Hocking would have been an example of a defensive mid (though not exactly 188cm), but I agree with you. I think Hird is probably the only coach in the last how many coaches we’ve had that actually paid attention to having a defensive and physically strong midfield group (to his detriment). Leaving the saga aside, he went too far the other way as we had too many slow mids that struggled spreading from contests. Funnily enough, Merrett and Shiel would have been perfect for our midfield back then. Now we lack a Jobe/Hocking type.

 

[Vander18]

My take on the midfield….

We, as a midfield group are underpowered , and need to inject more size/power into the collective.

Not sure about the value of tagging, I am very sure of the value of two way players. To me Sydney are the benchmark….their mids always seem to have the right balance of attack and defence. They clamp down on players when they need to but can still work off their man and contribute offensively. We either don’t draft players capable of doing that or we don’t teach them how to do that. None of our best mids are elite runners…is that part of the issue?

 

[faible]

None of our best mids are elite runners…is that part of the issue?

Which best mids in the comp are elite runners?

Dangerfield is probably the best all-round athlete, otherwise Cripps, Neale, Bontempelli, Miller, Steele, Mitchell, Shuey, Fyfe, Martin, Petracca, Oliver etc... are all capable enough runners but none of them are elite.

I wouldn't say Merrett, Parish or Shiel are any better or worse than any other AFL midfielder.

The true elite runners are usually outside players.

 

[Zach Package]

I’d say Hocking would have been an example of a defensive mid (though not exactly 188cm), but I agree with you. I think Hird is probably the only coach in the last how many coaches we’ve had that actually paid attention to having a defensive and physically strong midfield group (to his detriment). Leaving the saga aside, he went too far the other way as we had too many slow mids that struggled spreading from contests. Funnily enough, Merrett and Shiel would have been perfect for our midfield back then. Now we lack a Jobe/Hocking type.

Yep, Bhudda is the one that I somehow forgot but he's certainly the outlier.

Underrated aspect of all this discussion is that we simply cannot stop the footy, whether it be with a stoppage, a mark or a boundary throw in. We look slower, more unfit and more disorganised than we probably are because we never get respite, we're always chasing tail and we don't have time to set the field up.

Probably an unpopular opinion but I actually think the personnel we have in the middle is pretty good minus a big, bullocking crazy horse type.

 

[TheGrizz]

We are trying to play a Richmond-style, front half centric game plan.

Essentially win the stoppage, or or quick turnover and get it forward so we can lock it in there through pressure and strong zone.

The problem is we were smashed in the clearances by Geelong and in the 2nd half versus Brisbane. When we were on top in the clearances in the 1st half vs the Lions we dominated the flow of the game.

When we don't win clearances we are constantly chasing tail to defend. This means
1. We are tired from defending
2. We can't set up our zone
3. Our forwardline is always out of position because our HFF and wingmen are folding back to help defend.

As we don't have a lot of marking outlets through our midfield like Geelong/Port/Melb do, the ball gets stuck forward alot as well (hence the attempts to play Cox on the wing).

I mentioned at the start of the year we needed a 'zag' or a Plan B. Essentially if we arent dominating clearance, we need to develop a plan to be opposition presses and get the ball forward without the fast paced style we like to play. Another key goal for this year for mine.

 

[Vander18]

Which best mids in the comp are elite runners?

Dangerfield is probably the best all-round athlete, otherwise Cripps, Neale, Bontempelli, Miller, Steele, Mitchell, Shuey, Fyfe, Martin, Petracca, Oliver etc... are all capable enough runners but none of them are elite.

I wouldn't say Merrett, Parish or Shiel are any better or worse than any other AFL midfielder.

The true elite runners are usually outside players.

A lot of those guys are big, explosive mids - apples and oranges in terms of comparison with our guys. Neale, Mitchell, Shuey and Miller cut from same cloth. Certainly have a sense that Miller and Neale cover more ground than ours. Could be wrong.
Selwood is another comparable player - great runner.

It’s an observation - I don’t think the running power of our midfield group, be they inside or outside, is super strong. And I think that’s been the case for a while.

 

[TheGrizz]

A lot of those guys are big, explosive mids - apples and oranges in terms of comparison with our guys. Neale, Mitchell, Shuey and Miller cut from same cloth. Certainly have a sense that Miller and Neale cover more ground than ours. Could be wrong.
Selwood is another comparable player - great runner.

It’s an observation - I don’t think the running power of our midfield group, be they inside or outside, is super strong. And I think that’s been the case for a while.

Shiel, McGrath and Merrett are very good runners when healthy

 

[Vander18]

Shiel, McGrath and Merrett are very good runners when healthy

Are they?

Shiel is pretty good. Merrett and McGrath….I would say they have neither great speed nor great endurance. That said, Both probably have a gear they use too infrequently.
My guess is they are somewhere around average compared to similar midfielders.

Keep in mind the midfield
Rotation is about what….7-8 different guys (including wings).

 

[faible]

A lot of those guys are big, explosive mids - apples and oranges in terms of comparison with our guys. Neale, Mitchell, Shuey and Miller cut from same cloth. Certainly have a sense that Miller and Neale cover more ground than ours. Could be wrong.
Selwood is another comparable player - great runner.

It’s an observation - I don’t think the running power of our midfield group, be they inside or outside, is super strong. And I think that’s been the case for a while.

I think it's fine, I think we do a lot of wasteful chasing because too many players don't setup where they should.

A good example is Cox; has a huge tank, but looks like he's not running much because he's using that tank to chase players because he positions himself poorly, instead of being able to setup to maximise it.

Our issue isn't how far we run, or how hard we run. It's how smart we run.

We don't have a truly elite wingman who combines positional smarts with a huge tank (e.g. a Tom Scully) but very few teams have that.

Otherwise if you look at the distance covered by team in our games, we ran 0.4% less far than Geelong but had 195 sprint efforts to their 230 - lazy football. Against Brisbane we ran 0.45% further than they did, with 234 sprint efforts to their 188 - working hard.

If our running power was no good we wouldn't be covering approximately the same amount of distance as the opposition team, what we could do better is run smarter so we can use that run in more damaging and useful ways.

 

[BrunoV]

Yeah in the first 2 quarters. What about the second half when the game was there to be won? Brisbane won contested footy 78-61.
We started the game winning the clearances 12-2 in the first quarter. It was 18-35 Brisbane's way for the last 3 quarters.

We may dominate for one or two quarters, but we cannot sustain it. Good sides are able to dominate for 4 quarters.

It's the break of the ball.

We may genuinely have the best set up in the AFL when the ball breaks clear.

Problem is that It's almost entirely dumb luck as whether or not that will happen enough against any decent opponent.

My gut feel and hope is that Rutten is biding time until he can develop/get what he needs (e.g. hardened professional out put from Caldwell, Draper and Hobbs, maybe Voss and maybe someone else).

I first got this impression in the final last year. It seemed like he basically said '**** it, even if we retain Clarke and add Caldwell we're still a mile off being able to slug it out toe to toe with the Dogs so let's just go with a way to win if the ball does break for us'.

 

[Vander18]

I think it's fine, I think we do a lot of wasteful chasing because too many players don't setup where they should.

A good example is Cox; has a huge tank, but looks like he's not running much because he's using that tank to chase players because he positions himself poorly, instead of being able to setup to maximise it.

Our issue isn't how far we run, or how hard we run. It's how smart we run.

We don't have a truly elite wingman who combines positional smarts with a huge tank (e.g. a Tom Scully) but very few teams have that.

Otherwise if you look at the distance covered by team in our games, we ran 0.4% less far than Geelong but had 195 sprint efforts to their 230 - lazy football. Against Brisbane we ran 0.45% further than they did, with 234 sprint efforts to their 188 - working hard.

If our running power was no good we wouldn't be covering approximately the same amount of distance as the opposition team, what we could do better is run smarter so we can use that run in more damaging and useful ways.

What I do know is that Per my original point, Sydney set a banchmark, year after year, for two way midfield play and we have never got near fielding a midfield with that same defensive mindset.

 

[Zach Package]

Thought the balance was much better and more sustainable tonight. We just got an absolute lesson in patrolling the wings. And they had about 5 more minutes in their legs much like last week.

 

[faible]

Thought the balance was much better and more sustainable tonight. We just got an absolute lesson in patrolling the wings. And they had about 5 more minutes in their legs much like last week.

We were poor at switching play, quite a few times Cutler was out on the far side and completely ignored.