Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[ant555]

A lot of those guys are big, explosive mids - apples and oranges in terms of comparison with our guys. Neale, Mitchell, Shuey and Miller cut from same cloth. Certainly have a sense that Miller and Neale cover more ground than ours. Could be wrong.
Selwood is another comparable player - great runner.

It’s an observation - I don’t think the running power of our midfield group, be they inside or outside, is super strong. And I think that’s been the case for a while.

Do not have anyone with the running power of Oliver.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Shiel, McGrath and Merrett are very good runners when healthy

McGrath is a terrible midfield runner. He can't use his pace and is gassed every effort.

Labours from contest to contest.

He's effectively a stop start burst player that is possibly in the wrong sport.

 

[Lore]

Interesting article actually, could’ve put it in Heppell, Merrett or McGrath’s threads but it’s about the midfield mix generally too.

Why are midfield maestros moving into defence? Hawks legend explains

Luke Hodge says the reasons behind ageing stars shifting into the backline are twofold

www.afl.com.au

In regard to having a same-ish midfield group and rotating them through other roles;

"We had a pretty one-dimensional midfield with (Brad) Sewell, (Jordan) Lewis, (Sam) Mitchell and myself, very similar in-and-under type players at the time," he said.

"Lewi went on to become a good winger and myself and Mitch rotated at half-back and mid, but at the time we were all similar.

"I played a lot of half-back as a junior and even my first year was at half-back.

"When Clarko initially suggested it, I was like 'why, I'm going ok in the midfield?'

"Clarko dangled the carrot that we could keep doing what we were doing, or we could move me to half-back and I could help us win a premiership.

"It was a pretty convincing argument. It was Clarko's fourth year with us, we'd been to Kokoda and all trusted each other, so I was fine with the move."

In terms of having a general in defence, reading the play and telling the mids which way to run;

"As you get older you understand the game a bit more and your preference goes from getting the ball and doing the best you can for yourself to doing what you can to help your team win," Hodge said.

"If you have to step out of the spotlight, that's what you do."

"Whether it's good leadership, having a good kick or offering speed, they have to be an asset in that area," Hodge said.

"I was able to work with (Ryan) Burton, (Blake) Hardwick and (James) Sicily late in my career, and the mids in front of you.

"The hardest thing with midfield is there's so many patterns to run, which way you have to spread whether you win or lose the ball.

"If you've got someone behind you to give guidance and telling you to run left or run right, it might mean it's an extra second or two to get a spoil or win the ball back for your team.

"When you're in the back half you can sit back and assess and talk to the guys in front of you."

"And if push comes to shove and you need a burst in the middle, you can still go in there, like we saw from Pendles last week."

 

[F_therest]

I think Cripps has played with a back injury for about 18 months, and they had a couple of other bad injuries (Charlie Curnow had a pretty bad knee)? Cripps in particular seems to be a bit of a lynch pin for them.

Docherty as well looks back to near his best after ACLs and cancer.

In terms of midfield discussion, obviously the recruitment of Cerra and Hewett has been massive and the vast improvement of Kennedy.

But just as important has been the improved gameplan...been a clear shift in how our team plays. Not just being hard at it but we look for handball chains out of stoppages instead of hack kicks and players keep their width to cover outside players instead of all diving on the ball.

Individually, essendon have a good and deep midfield. Arguably though too many similar types...eg Parish pushed out to other positions until injuries last year. Not sure on their ability to play other positions either.

I actually think the talk about your midfield size is a little overblown...though I do think you are missing one or two naturally aggressive extractors like Jobe used to be. They don't need to be Cripps' size to do that...look at players like Neale and Touk Miller they aren't any bigger than your mids but it's just the way they naturally play. The balance is a little off.

 

[Lore]

Docherty as well looks back to near his best after ACLs and cancer.

In terms of midfield discussion, obviously the recruitment of Cerra and Hewett has been massive and the vast improvement of Kennedy.

But just as important has been the improved gameplan...been a clear shift in how our team plays. Not just being hard at it but we look for handball chains out of stoppages instead of hack kicks and players keep their width to cover outside players instead of all diving on the ball.

Individually, essendon have a good and deep midfield. Arguably though too many similar types...eg Parish pushed out to other positions until injuries last year. Not sure on their ability to play other positions either.

I actually think the talk about your midfield size is a little overblown...though I do think you are missing one or two naturally aggressive extractors like Jobe used to be. They don't need to be Cripps' size to do that...look at players like Neale and Touk Miller they aren't any bigger than your mids but it's just the way they naturally play. The balance is a little off.

Supposedly Hobbs is like those aggressive extractor types. He just hasn’t debuted yet

I think he’s playing VFL in about 4 minutes though so might learn something about that today…

 

[Yoda_]

Yep. Waterman doing a bit there but is a work in progress.

Hobbs is literally our only midfield depth.

This is what pisses me off about our list management..

We have had guys over the years dominate at the lower level in the VFL and then get played on the flanks or either end at senior level.


Midfield does midfield good. Play them there.. This is why I don't see futures for guys like Devon Smith, Brayden Ham etc. Great, brilliant at the lower level but not what we need at the next level.

 

[ant555]

This is what pisses me off about our list management..

We have had guys over the years dominate at the lower level in the VFL and then get played on the flanks or either end at senior level.


Midfield does midfield good. Play them there.. This is why I don't see futures for guys like Devon Smith, Brayden Ham etc. Great, brilliant at the lower level but not what we need at the next level.

Not sure why Smith and Ham are in the midfield discussion.
You do not need to tell me about drafting midfielders. Waterman was a midfielder as a junior and you can see he gets the positioning right but having missed so much footy he is just a bit out of sorts with the absolute touch needed.
It is what it is. We all know where we went wrong but we do have to realize that this is a new reset in its second year coming off a period of serious mistakes. We just have to rule a line and see what happens now. The recruiting process has certainly been changed from previous years.

 

[Yoda_]

Not sure why Smith and Ham are in the midfield discussion.
You do not need to tell me about drafting midfielders. Waterman was a midfielder as a junior and you can see he gets the positioning right but having missed so much footy he is just a bit out of sorts with the absolute touch needed.
It is what it is. We all know where we went wrong but we do have to realize that this is a new reset in its second year coming off a period of serious mistakes. We just have to rule a line and see what happens now. The recruiting process has certainly been changed from previous years.

Im going back in time to the "turning flankers into midfielders" argument from yesteryear.



I have no doubt that if Ham is dropped, next week he plays some meaningful time as a midfield rotation at VFL level despite that not being his role at AFL level.

 

[ant555]

Im going back in time to the "turning flankers into midfielders" argument from yesteryear.



I have no doubt that if Ham is dropped, next week he plays some meaningful time as a midfield rotation at VFL level despite that not being his role at AFL level.

Ham has never really played midfield rotation. Has played a lot of wing in the VFL.
Smith well he has hardly played VFL. Even if they did they are only taking the place of VFL midfielders.
I go back to what I said. No way we trade out any midfielders. We just need to find two bigger size ones.

 

[yodellinhank]

Not sure why Smith and Ham are in the midfield discussion.
You do not need to tell me about drafting midfielders. Waterman was a midfielder as a junior and you can see he gets the positioning right but having missed so much footy he is just a bit out of sorts with the absolute touch needed.
It is what it is. We all know where we went wrong but we do have to realize that this is a new reset in its second year coming off a period of serious mistakes. We just have to rule a line and see what happens now. The recruiting process has certainly been changed from previous years.

But then we go out and draft Garrett McDonaghue a ready made back up for our back up half back flank. I still need convincing that they're on track list management wise. One swallow does not a summer make.

 

[FlyingV]

But then we go out and draft Garrett McDonaghue a ready made back up for our back up half back flank. I still need convincing that they're on track list management wise. One swallow does not a summer make.

I’m with you, up until this point I’ve always thought the list management was fine, it’s the circus with the supplements, injury management and coaching that’s been the issue. My perception is starting to change a bit tbh

 

[ant555]

But then we go out and draft Garrett McDonaghue a ready made back up for our back up half back flank. I still need convincing that they're on track list management wise. One swallow does not a summer make.

Not everyone gets every pick right. History says that if you get 4 out of 6 it is as good as it gets. We have had our issues but even if we get it right we are still going to have some. All I have said is they have a new process in how they do it and there is a bit of the Melbourne flavor that has come across with Mahoney and what they did to change what Melbourne where doing after they had years of so so results with decent picks.
It is fair to say you need convincing. Nothing has been proven yet. Promising start but it is in its infancy. Not sure I have said anything else other than they have changed what they are doing. It may take 3 year or 5 years or it may not work at all. Right now all they have done is see there was a problem and put a different system in place.

 

[yodellinhank]

Not everyone gets every pick right. History says that if you get 4 out of 6 it is as good as it gets. We have had our issues but even if we get it right we are still going to have some. All I have said is they have a new process in how they do it and there is a bit of the Melbourne flavor that has come across with Mahoney and what they did to change what Melbourne where doing after they had years of so so results with decent picks.
It is fair to say you need convincing. Nothing has been proven yet. Promising start but it is in its infancy. Not sure I have said anything else other than they have changed what they are doing. It may take 3 year or 5 years or it may not work at all. Right now all they have done is see there was a problem and put a different system in place.

I'd be more comfortable if they had've had picks in the last draft, but they were all spent. Then to use one on a mature age half back, when you've already got Heppell, Hind, Redman, Cutler and traded in Kelly, and with players like McGrath, Guelfi, Francis etc who can go back there... just screams of Dodoro w***ery.

 

[Stopher]

I'm amazed this thread isn't full of Chicken Littles yet!

 

[ant555]

I'd be more comfortable if they had've had picks in the last draft, but they were all spent. Then to use one on a mature age half back, when you've already got Heppell, Hind, Redman, Cutler and traded in Kelly, and with players like McGrath, Guelfi, Francis etc who can go back there... just screams of Dodoro w***ery.

Not sure why you are putting Kelly in the running half back group. He came in to add some one on one defense. One issue we have is sides are actually targeting Hind as he is the only outlet player. The know he is the speed from half back so they make sure they can stop his run as much as possible.
At draft time they where looking at half backs who can move the footy. McDonagh may be mature age but that did not mean he was not going to be a work in progress given he was Richmond VFL and not AFL. He is not the same type as Heppell of Francis. They where looking for another player to use the footy off half back who may be a bit shorter term compared with Lord who is clearly longer term. He is the same type of selection as Durham or Martin. Right now we actually do have an issue with half back. We need another weapon running from there. Redman being down on form does not help.
Shit we are at the start of April and you are complaining our pick 50 is certain not to make it. He was not great yesterday but was still in the game enough to be seen. He has only played 11 VFL games total and two of those where in 2016. Not sure the fact he is 25 would make him a lock to come in and be at AFL pace without any development. The only advantage he has is his body is a bit more advanced than an 18 year old.
Tell me who we should have picked ? seems to be a lot of complaint about what we are doing without actually providing alternatives.

 

[BrunoV]

But then we go out and draft Garrett McDonaghue a ready made back up for our back up half back flank. I still need convincing that they're on track list management wise. One swallow does not a summer make.

Yep. Why not Ned Long and Voss?

If there is one area of the ground you need a lot of reinforcements it's in the middle.

We have the deepest list of the same type of mid in the AFL and 1 genuine mid, Hobbs, in reserve.

There have been improvements in other areas, athleticism of the talls being such an area, but there is still enough from a list management perspective to demand caution.

 

[eth-dog]

Seriously. The only players drafted after McDonagh that have played either play for WC (with COVID outs) or redrafted blokes like Polec or Lochie O'Brien

4

Lochie O'brien

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

9.3

4star

HB

3.9

3star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.3

3star

CL

0.7

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

3.2

3star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.4

4star

CL

1.0

3star

.

I'm not a huge fan but let's wait.

 

[yodellinhank]

Not sure why you are putting Kelly in the running half back group. He came in to add some one on one defense. One issue we have is sides are actually targeting Hind as he is the only outlet player. The know he is the speed from half back so they make sure they can stop his run as much as possible.
At draft time they where looking at half backs who can move the footy. McDonagh may be mature age but that did not mean he was not going to be a work in progress given he was Richmond VFL and not AFL. He is not the same type as Heppell of Francis. They where looking for another player to use the footy off half back who may be a bit shorter term compared with Lord who is clearly longer term. He is the same type of selection as Durham or Martin. Right now we actually do have an issue with half back. We need another weapon running from there. Redman being down on form does not help.
Shit we are at the start of April and you are complaining our pick 50 is certain not to make it. He was not great yesterday but was still in the game enough to be seen. He has only played 11 VFL games total and two of those where in 2016. Not sure the fact he is 25 would make him a lock to come in and be at AFL pace without any development. The only advantage he has is his body is a bit more advanced than an 18 year old.
Tell me who we should have picked ? seems to be a lot of complaint about what we are doing without actually providing alternatives.

My gripe is how much list you want to clog with medium & small defenders. You can say he's a different type to a Heppell or Kelly, but fact is we aren't picking them all in a 22. How many back ups do you need across that line?

You have said we're a couple of wrecking balls short in the middle. We're also lacking depth in good ball users who can go through there. I'd sooner we attempt to address that.

 

[yodellinhank]

I'm amazed this thread isn't full of Chicken Littles yet!

I'm amazed people still keep calling "chicken littles" out when it's clear the sky fell ages ago and the club is stuffed, even the clubs that already went past us have fallen and gone past us again.

 

[ant555]

My gripe is how much list you want to clog with medium & small defenders. You can say he's a different type to a Heppell or Kelly, but fact is we aren't picking them all in a 22. How many back ups do you need across that line?

You have said we're a couple of wrecking balls short in the middle. We're also lacking depth in good ball users who can go through there. I'd sooner we attempt to address that.

We where also short of small defenders. He is a back pocket with a booming kick. Who where the wrecking ball midfielders or good ball users picked after him at pick 50 ?
Can not pick what is not there. The simple fact is we do have an issue with sides targeting Hind to stifle our run. He is a small defender who although not a rocket displayed a bit of poise and a deadly left foot kick out of defense. If he was 18 you would not be saying anything about it.
Like I said you are full of complaints but short of alternatives . If a player / type is not there at your pick then you can not draft them.

 

[yodellinhank]

We where also short of small defenders. He is a back pocket with a booming kick. Who where the wrecking ball midfielders or good ball users picked after him at pick 50 ?
Can not pick what is not there. The simple fact is we do have an issue with sides targeting Hind to stifle our run. He is a small defender who although not a rocket displayed a bit of poise and a deadly left foot kick out of defense. If he was 18 you would not be saying anything about it.
Like I said you are full of complaints but short of alternatives . If a player / type is not there at your pick then you can not draft them.

It's never there if you don't look. We need to address midfield depth before we worry about pockets and flankers. Again and again and again. Noted that Waterman might be being looked at to try fill the void.

 

[ant555]

I'm amazed people still keep calling "chicken littles" out when it's clear the sky fell ages ago and the club is stuffed, even the clubs that already went past us have fallen and gone past us again.

So you expect us to rebuild in 1 year then ?
Yes. We have made 18 years of dumb decisions. I am not sure what you want the club to do.
These are the facts. 80% of the board has been changed in the last 4 years.
Coaching panel has been totally changed in the last 3 years including development coaches.
Players where finally let go after years of pissing in their pocket for them to stay.
Football manager changed less than 2 years ago.
Recruiting system restructured. Dodoro may well still be here when he should not be but the fact is he has not got total control anymore. The bloke who set up Melbourne's program is.
Coach in only his second year with a different plan to previously.
I know all this means little now as you can not measure results either way but there was a clear line in the sand drawn after 2020. What happens next has nothing to do with what we did in the past as there are no longer the same people in control who made the decisions made in the past. It may well not work but changes have been made. Further changes will need to be made as we go along.
Exactly what do you want. Sack everyone including players and have a 100% start with a totally new group ?
Come on. You are big on the complaints so give us the actual solutions.

 

[ant555]

It's never there if you don't look. We need to address midfield depth before we worry about pockets and flankers. Again and again and again. Noted that Waterman might be being looked at to try fill the void.

So now you are saying they did not evaluate the back end of the draft ? they did not look at any other options ?
This group has had two drafts. So far they have picked
KPD Reid
KP Cox
Strong HF/MID/Wing Perkins
KP Josh Eyre
KP Cody Brand
KP Baldwin
Wing Durham
Inside midfielder Hobbs
Running half back Lord
Back Pocket McDonaugh
Utility Voss
Wing / half forward Martin
Small Forward Wanganeen.

Like I said who should they have picked ?

 

[yodellinhank]

So now you are saying they did not evaluate the back end of the draft ? they did not look at any other options ?
This group has had two drafts. So far they have picked
KPD Reid
KP Cox
Strong HF/MID/Wing Perkins
KP Josh Eyre
KP Cody Brand
KP Baldwin
Wing Durham
Inside midfielder Hobbs
Running half back Lord
Back Pocket McDonaugh
Utility Voss
Wing / half forward Martin
Small Forward Wanganeen.

Like I said who should they have picked ?

I think we'll be very lucky if we can get a core group out of the last 2 drafts, if that's the way you want to look at it. We basically opted out of last year's draft. And the picks we did take opted for flankers who are currently behind the flankers we already have on the list.

 

[ant555]

I think we'll be very lucky if we can get a core group out of the last 2 drafts, if that's the way you want to look at it. We basically opted out of last year's draft. And the picks we did take opted for flankers who are currently behind the flankers we already have on the list.

Why are we looking to get a core group of of 2 drafts ? The reality is you build the core group from 4 or 5 drafts.
The flankers currently on the list may not be there in two years . In fact a few may not be there in 1 year and Cutler was playing more wing on Saturday but even he is on a 1 year deal. There is every chance 3 flankers will gone gone at the end of this year.