Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[rines]

If you take an average AFL list for a team pushing for a Premiership.. I think it can be broken into four main groups - Stars, Solid Role Players, Fringe/Replacements and Development. Ideally you would want 10/15/10/5 to push for a flag.

I think the list has that easily:
Stars: Watson, Goddard, Hibberd, Hooker, Carlisle, Heppell, Zahakis, Hurley
Solid Role Players:Chapman, Cooney, TBell, Baguley, Z Merrett, Fletcher, Gleeson, Stanton, Dempsey, Cooney, Myers, Colyer, Hocking, Howlett, JD, Ambrose, Fantasia, Giles, Gwilt, Melksham
Fringe: Ashby, NOB, J Merrett, EKav, Browne, Aylett, Edwards, Hams, Giles, Pears
Development: #17, #20, Dalglish, McKenna, Raynor,

Ideally we need 1-3 more of the role players to step up and become stars.. which could easily apply to Baguley, Z Merrett, JD etc etc..

I will be very very surprised if this list doesn't make top 4 next season..

 

[ghostdog]

As it stands out list is OK without being outstanding, and probably about average when compared with other AFL teams.

I've broken it down into player groups of 10

We have 10 players turning 28+ in 2015 so its fair to say many of these guys wont be at their best (or even at the club) in 2 - 5 years

the oldies

Watson, Goddard, Baguley, Chappy, Winders, Dempsey, Stanton, Fletch, Gwilt, and Cooney

This is somewhat problematic as a lot of these players are still our better performers....

Outside of these guys there is still plenty of talent pushing through, and have shown enough to suggest some of these guys can pick up the slack when the older players are gone;-

the future

Heppell, Daniher, Zakka, Hooker, Hurley, Hibberd, TBell, Myers, Z.Merrett, and Carlisle

The next group of 10 are players have shown ability no doubt but need to improve if we are going to be a force over the next few years;-

players with 'potential'

Colyer, Hocking, Howlett, Gleeson, J.Merrett, Ambrose, Fantasia, Melksham, Giles, Kommer

Any players outside of that if we are totally honest are on the fringe or in development so hence we have some work to do with our list over the next few years

List cloggers will become so much more clear by then end of 2015. You'd think 2015 might be a pivotal year for Melksham, perhaps Kommer, even Colyer if he can't continue with his 2014 form. Howlett was lucky to land a 2 year contract, but what's a contract? Fantasia, Jerrett, Ambrose probably lucky to have time to show their wares yet, although Ambrose and Hocking are probably there until something better comes along. Very excited about Fantasia, Gleeson and Jerrett, and Colyer as well if he can carry his improvement and go on.

Re: the oldies, Chappy, Winders and Fletch gone by the end of 2015?

 

[BrunoV]

List cloggers will become so much more clear by then end of 2015. You'd think 2015 might be a pivotal year for Melksham, perhaps Kommer, even Colyer if he can't continue with his 2014 form. Howlett was lucky to land a 2 year contract, but what's a contract? Fantasia, Jerrett, Ambrose probably lucky to have time to show their wares yet, although Ambrose and Hocking are probably there until something better comes along. Very excited about Fantasia, Gleeson and Jerrett, and Colyer as well if he can carry his improvement and go on.

Re: the oldies, Chappy, Winders and Fletch gone by the end of 2015?

Put it this way, if Chappy, Winderlich, Fletcher, Howlett, Gwilt and even Kommer are getting games in 2016 we're in big trouble.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

We already have list cloggers in Pears, Hardy, Steinberg and Melksham

Add the fact that four of our good players in Cooney, Chapman, Fletch and Winderlich are already zero chance of playing a full season, I think people need to be pretty wary.

 

[Howard Moon]

Its the easiest thing in the world to ask for more pace more pace like its the panacea to all our ills... it isnt. (unless you are pace whoring in fifa15)

The two best sides of our generation are not quick sides, they are positively one paced save for the one or two classy outside speedsters. Hawthorn (hill smith) and Geelong (motlop and ?) the two best sides share one thing - elite ball users. Elite fast ball use trumps leg speed all day long. Im not denying those players named are not guns but they are not what makes those sides great, they are icing at the end of the product.

I think we have the required amount of pace - colyer, dempsey, dalgliesh, zaka? We have the slingers, we should be aiming at recruiting elite ball users only.

The two sides mentioned seem to only draft elite ball users however paced they are then worry about the kpp later (usually poaching via trade). The template is clear, elite ball users back and middle then fill in the gaps.

Importantly when we are on and playing the game on our terms we look like lightening - even against these two sides this year, during the third quarters we ran them both of their feet. Its just about us getting the game on our terms, which requires our disposal to be pin point. Which seems to crumble under pressure.

Obviously the diamonds in the draft have inside grunt, break away pace and elite skills but they are top end rare, we are never in that bracket. We need to just focus on elite elite elite kicking players in the draft, the rest will come together.

 

[Yoda_]

We already have list cloggers in Pears, Hardy, Steinberg and Melksham

Add the fact that four of our good players in Cooney, Chapman, Fletch and Winderlich are already zero chance of playing a full season, I think people need to be pretty wary.

This is why I am wary about us being on a downward spiral in 2016/17 when these best 22 guys are not there receding.

 

[Yoda_]

Its the easiest thing in the world to ask for more pace more pace like its the panacea to all our ills... it isnt. (unless you are pace whoring in fifa15)

The two best sides of our generation are not quick sides, they are positively one paced save for the one or two classy outside speedsters. Hawthorn (hill smith) and Geelong (motlop and ?) the two best sides share one thing - elite ball users. Elite fast ball use trumps leg speed all day long. Im not denying those players named are not guns but they are not what makes those sides great, they are icing at the end of the product.

I think we have the required amount of pace - colyer, dempsey, dalgliesh, zaka? We have the slingers, we should be aiming at recruiting elite ball users only.

The two sides mentioned seem to only draft elite ball users however paced they are then worry about the kpp later (usually poaching via trade). The template is clear, elite ball users back and middle end of the park then fill in the gaps.

Importantly when we are on and playing the game on our terms we look like lightening - even against these two sides this year, during the third quarters we ran them both of their feet. Its just about us getting the game on our terms, which requires our disposal to be pin point. Which seems to crumble under pressure.

Obviously the diamonds in the draft have inside grunt, break away pace and elite skills but they are top end rare, we are never in that bracket. We need to just focus on elite elite elite kicking players in the draft, the rest will come together.

There has been a trend in our more recent drafting to go after the better ball users &/or decision makers. Hope we can continue that even if they are inside types.

 

[BrunoV]

Its the easiest thing in the world to ask for more pace more pace like its the panacea to all our ills... it isnt. (unless you are pace whoring in fifa15)

The two best sides of our generation are not quick sides, they are positively one paced save for the one or two classy outside speedsters. Hawthorn (hill smith) and Geelong (motlop and ?) the two best sides share one thing - elite ball users. Elite fast ball use trumps leg speed all day long. Im not denying those players named are not guns but they are not what makes those sides great, they are icing at the end of the product.

I think we have the required amount of pace - colyer, dempsey, dalgliesh, zaka? We have the slingers, we should be aiming at recruiting elite ball users only.

The two sides mentioned seem to only draft elite ball users however paced they are then worry about the kpp later (usually poaching via trade). The template is clear, elite ball users back and middle then fill in the gaps.

Importantly when we are on and playing the game on our terms we look like lightening - even against these two sides this year, during the third quarters we ran them both of their feet. Its just about us getting the game on our terms, which requires our disposal to be pin point. Which seems to crumble under pressure.

Obviously the diamonds in the draft have inside grunt, break away pace and elite skills but they are top end rare, we are never in that bracket. We need to just focus on elite elite elite kicking players in the draft, the rest will come together.

A few things in response.

It's not pace as much as running power that is important. It's the combination of endurance and speed that is crucial to enabling the effective transition between defence and attack.

Hawthorn, Port and Freo are not full of ridiculously quick players but a seriously high number have good speed combined with really good endurance. Sydney has more out and out speedsters.

It misleads to look at the two or three genuinely quick players as the point of comparison because every team has them.

Sydney is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned. They have McVeigh, Jack, Hannebery, McGlynn, Cunningham, Shaw, Malceski who I would be quite confident cover the 10 to 15 km of match day running faster than anyone we played last year except for Ambrose and then Jetta and Rohan to provide the blistering pace (with the other Jack and Towers in reserve).

I would also not undersell Hawthorn in this regard. They've got the two greatest aerobic athletes in the game in addition to guys like Lewis, Langford, Shiel, Birchall, Puopolo and even Roughead, Gunston and Breust who are exceptionally hard working. It's the work rate that enables Hawthorn to get the ball back so effectively in the event that they lose it.

Geelong and it is already three years, and a number of changes in attitude plus proposed changes to interchange, since they won a flag still had a number of pacey players on the outside combined with players that were really hard running with only one or two slow players.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Our midfield is the biggest issue.
We are one paced with only Travis Colyer a line breaking midfielder.
We also do not possess midfielders with elite endurance beside Brent Stanton. Watson and Myers are poor runners though inside brutes, hocking just okay and Heppell slightly above average.
Btw I reckon Stanton has declined considerably . Hope I am wrong.
I would like to draft another speedster and an endurance animal.

Not sure I can even remotely agree with this. The reason he beat so many tags is he worked his taggers into the ground.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

A few things in response.
use every team has them.

Sydney is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned. They have McVeigh, Jack, Hannebery, McGlynn, Cunningham, Shaw, Malceski who I would be quite confident cover the 10 to 15 km of match day running faster than anyone we played last year except for Ambrose and then Jetta and Rohan to provide the blistering pace (with the other Jack and Towers in reserve).

Ahhh not any more

 

[Yoda_]

Ahhh not any more

You don't need to be that guy

 

[Pevers-Legend]

You don't need to be that guy

Ahh yes I do

 

[hollywood23]

Goddard and Cockatoo. Make it happen dodo, get those spiders out there. Hearing foot issues and OP are major concerns for both....

 

[Howard Moon]

A few things in response.
It's not pace as much as running power that is important. It's the combination of endurance and speed that is crucial to enabling the effective transition between defence and attack.
Hawthorn, Port and Freo are not full of ridiculously quick players but a seriously high number have good speed combined with really good endurance. Sydney has more out and out speedsters.
It misleads to look at the two or three genuinely quick players as the point of comparison because every team has them.
Sydney is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned. They have McVeigh, Jack, Hannebery, McGlynn, Cunningham, Shaw, Malceski who I would be quite confident cover the 10 to 15 km of match day running faster than anyone we played last year except for Ambrose and then Jetta and Rohan to provide the blistering pace (with the other Jack and Towers in reserve).
I would also not undersell Hawthorn in this regard. They've got the two greatest aerobic athletes in the game in addition to guys like Lewis, Langford, Shiel, Birchall, Puopolo and even Roughead, Gunston and Breust who are exceptionally hard working. It's the work rate that enables Hawthorn to get the ball back so effectively in the event that they lose it.
Geelong and it is already three years, and a number of changes in attitude plus proposed changes to interchange, since they won a flag still had a number of pacey players on the outside combined with players that were really hard running with only one or two slow players.

all good points however id argue Hawthorns ability to pick their way up the ground with pin point kicks outweighs their running ability. They are pretty much known as the side to never leave free numbers in the back half, not because they run off you so much, but because it gives them time to slice you apart by foot.
but you make a good point about endurance being as much a hurt factor as pure speed.
Its some thing i didnt take into account.

It gets me to thinking, and this may sound like waffle, im typing on the fly with something thats popping into my head - it may well be rubbish... probaly dosent require a response as such im just bored and typing. may be better in the draft thread.

Lets say the perfect player is a 5 pointed star; the five points being (in elite capacity)
-speed
-endurance
-disposal
-strength
-decision making

The true 5 pointed player is rare, once or a few in a generation only- GAJ may be close, Danger, Buddy too, Judd probably has all but disposal, Goddard lacks pace, Pendlebury pace, Swan disposal, Hird disposal ..on and on you could judge them and some players may have one point so good that it masks the lack of another point.

where is this going?

well i think the genuine 5 pointed stars are so few and far between , i.e top pick in 'some' draft years, that you need to take players with four, three or less, so can you rank the points of the star in order of importance?

They may change on a needs basis, i.e we need an inside grunt player this year so we are taking a guy with endurance, strength and decision making...ect

This is purley hypothetical but if you were building the perfect team from scratch, and you were heading to the draft with this blue print where would the points of the star rank in order?

Im saying

1.Disposal
2.Decision making
3.Endurance
4.Strength
5.Speed

Its possible for a player to make it in the afl with no speed but its not possible to make it with rubbish disposal, good decision making can mask a lack of speed. Endurance can mean you get the ball so much, or are in space so much that the lack of speed is negated (or overlooked), a strong player can bust out of tackles or monster opponents to cover lack of speed.

If i were heading into the draft, now, or any time I'd be looking for the elite disposer, who makes great decisions. any one of the other three will do, any more is a bonus. I reckon Zach Merret was recruited this way, Dyson Heppell probably too. I hope we keep going along this track.

its also good to look at a few of our fringe players, im struggling to give them any elite star points, i.e not one major weapon.

 

[BrunoV]

all good points however id argue Hawthorns ability to pick their way up the ground with pin point kicks outweighs their running ability. They are pretty much known as the side to never leave free numbers in the back half, not because they run off you so much, but because it gives them time to slice you apart by foot.
but you make a good point about endurance being as much a hurt factor as pure speed.
Its some thing i didnt take into account.

Mobility is more about being able to defend without sacrificing scoring. At the moment we either score (2013) or we defend (2014) and I am certain that the reason we don't do both is because we can't run.

Disposal is crucial. I'm already on one negative drive and I don't want to bring disposal into it. I'd hate to line up Hawthorn's GF team and Essendon's elimination final team and rank the kicks. We'd look second rate.

 

[Ambrosia]

Mobility is more about being able to defend without sacrificing scoring. At the moment we either score (2013) or we defend (2014) and I am certain that the reason we don't do both is because we can't run.

Agree our spread isn't up there with the best but early in the season we shot ourselves in the foot with the possession game style, e.g. The Saints/Hawthorn games. Then later in the year we destroyed the ball going inside 50 when there was targets presenting, eg The Melbourne game.

 

[Howard Moon]

Mobility is more about being able to defend without sacrificing scoring. At the moment we either score (2013) or we defend (2014) and I am certain that the reason we don't do both is because we can't run.

Disposal is crucial. I'm already on one negative drive and I don't want to bring disposal into it. I'd hate to line up Hawthorn's GF team and Essendon's elimination final team and rank the kicks. We'd look second rate.

so we cant do both because we cant run a: because we are unfit and not trained well? or b: we dont have the player type? is it soemthing that cant be rectified within the group? or does it need re drafting

If not, when do you think we were closest, the year we attacked or the year we defended? If we were going to go forward with one style to get us an opportunity.

I'd say we were closest this year - we were not far away from the second week of the finals. plus it does not take much change from the defensive mindset to score more goals - 20% increase from JD - a midfielder to jump out of the ground and kick 25, small fwd recruit. However its hard to stop avalances when everyone is fwd of the ball in the old style.

 

[ghostdog]

its also good to look at a few of our fringe players, im struggling to give them any elite star points, i.e not one major weapon.

I think Gleeson could develop into a player with very good decision making and disposal.

 

[Howard Moon]

I think Gleeson could develop into a player with very good decision making and disposal.

hes one with an elite skill or two, decision making and disposal, bright future

Id nearly say the likes of kav and moose were some i was referring two, maybe even melky? do they have one big weapon?

 

[Howard Moon]

back to my 5 star point, out of the 5

speed
disposal
decision making
strength
endurance

How many can actually be taught?

Endurance can be worked on, so can strength - disposal within reason, but its preffered that you have it when drafted. Speed, you either have or you dont but you can work on techniques and muscles to gain a burst of sorts (see jobe) But decision making i think you have or you dont, theres no teaching it, its called a football brain.

So id still choose disposal and decision making ahead of the other three.

 

[BrunoV]

so we cant do both because we cant run a: because we are unfit and not trained well? or b: we dont have the player type? is it soemthing that cant be rectified within the group? or does it need re drafting

If not, when do you think we were closest, the year we attacked or the year we defended? If we were going to go forward with one style to get us an opportunity.

I'd say we were closest this year - we were not far away from the second week of the finals. plus it does not take much change from the defensive mindset to score more goals - 20% increase from JD - a midfielder to jump out of the ground and kick 25, small fwd recruit. However its hard to stop avalances when everyone is fwd of the ball in the old style.

We're closer if we can defend because no team is always going to be able to attack. It's a question of how effectively you can limit the damage when the other team is playing well. I'd say that there were plenty of signs in 2013 that we were still to fragile defensively.

Natural improvement in forward personnell will be enough to balance out the win/loss ratio between the two years. 40 goal a year Carlisle and Danhier alone will be enough to ensure that the St Kilda and Melbourne performances don't happen next year.

 

[ghostdog]

hes one with an elite skill or two, decision making and disposal, bright future

Id nearly say the likes of kav and moose were some i was referring two, maybe even melky? do they have one big weapon?

I haven't seen enough of either Kav or O'Brien (?)... Kav has been able to dispose of the ball well under pressure but hasn't had enough AFL time to lift his game. One particular handball always sticks in my mind with Kav, I don't recall who it was against, near the boundary, congested and he picked out Watson I think it was with a 5-10m handball on the inside that opened up the play. Exciting because of the promise but hasn't had consistent game time to build on it. Maybe Kav's decision making. He doesn't seem that quick.

Melksham is frustrating. At times he tags well, other times he loses his man. A lot of posters here pick him out because he stops running, then other times he'll be found running hard in the third or fourth to be that link player or get to the goal square. I don't know if he really has a weapon as such because he seems to go missing too much. He's a hardnut when he needs to be though, and I like that. I note that hardnut isn't one of your star points though.

Do you think they have one big weapon HM?

 

[table tennis]

I ask the question. Why can't Cooney be our burgoyne?

 

[Boundary Boy]

A few things in response.

It's not pace as much as running power that is important. It's the combination of endurance and speed that is crucial to enabling the effective transition between defence and attack.

Hawthorn, Port and Freo are not full of ridiculously quick players but a seriously high number have good speed combined with really good endurance. Sydney has more out and out speedsters.

It misleads to look at the two or three genuinely quick players as the point of comparison because every team has them.

Sydney is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned. They have McVeigh, Jack, Hannebery, McGlynn, Cunningham, Shaw, Malceski who I would be quite confident cover the 10 to 15 km of match day running faster than anyone we played last year except for Ambrose and then Jetta and Rohan to provide the blistering pace (with the other Jack and Towers in reserve).

I would also not undersell Hawthorn in this regard. They've got the two greatest aerobic athletes in the game in addition to guys like Lewis, Langford, Shiel, Birchall, Puopolo and even Roughead, Gunston and Breust who are exceptionally hard working. It's the work rate that enables Hawthorn to get the ball back so effectively in the event that they lose it.
.

EFC recruiters give an indication of the value they place on speed/endurance.....rookie and 400m/800m champion Johnny Raynor's contract not extended.

 

[Big Fresh]

I ask the question. Why can't Cooney be our burgoyne?

Because Burgoyne is a better player and Hawthorn had already won a premiership a year before they recruited him.