Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[eth-dog]

Solid read Eth, my only disagreement is the small forward comment - not many clubs operate with what used to be the traditional small forward anymore, which is why I lumped all non KPF into one group.

I'd love to pick up Cockatoo though, really fills a need for us and could probably play AFL next year.

Winderlich's more a mid-sized forward, closer to a Breust than a Milne.

Christenson would have been perfect in the role I mentioned, but alas, it didn't happen. Tom Lamb, if his attitude is fixed, really adds something that Carlisle/Daniher don't.

 

[Old Campaigner]

The make up of our list is great, I really like the lipstick.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Instead of looking at positions (we know what we need to cover), I've tried to concentrate on a 22 that I think all teams need. They don't all have to be superstars, but they do have to:

- be pretty smart footballers, ie have a fair degree of nous - know where to run, how to defend the ground, and be able to make smart decisions with the ball when they get it.

- be able to be relied upon to kick the bloody thing well when they attempt to... ie get it where it needs to go, to a teammate or through the sticks. Incl when under pressure. We don't want butchers who can't hit targets as they waste too many opportunities

- be reasonably expected to play 22 games the next year - obviously unforeseen injury will hit some, but I don't think you want too many rocking up on the first day of pre season where you already know there's no way they'll get near 22 games - be that due to age or chronic injury records. You're behind the 8 ball before you even start.

Smarts, skills, durability. Three boxes nearly all premiership players need to tick I think.

Now I think you want to be looking at getting pretty close to 20 players on your list who are ticking ALL 3 boxes to be considered a true flag threat. There'll be a few out week to week so you need that many I think, you can't take in too many "support crew" too regularly.

I ran through quickly, I got 12:

Bellchambers
Hibberd
Goddard
Watson
Zaharakis
Baguley
Dempsey
Hurley
Heppell
Carlisle
Hooker
Hocking

So the concern for me is that we're still short by quite a few. In terms of those already on our list who could make the jump next year, I'd say it's:

Daniher
Z Merrett
Colyer

If we are lucky and have one or two jump out of the ground next season we may reasonably expect to be getting close I think. We'd need a freak performance in terms of rapid development to win it in 2015.

When you think about how many new players you have who join that required bracket each year - not many - some due to internal development and some you get in from other clubs - I think we're a year or two away. It's gonna be a short genuine window for Jobe and BJ if they get one at all, still a lot that has to go right.

Stewie and Paddy have hurt us. But we got Merrett and now we need another one - or by miracle two - with 17 & 20. And we can't keep losing a player every year.

We could get there, but it's still up in the air imo. I'm happy for us to put most of our eggs in the bucket that is the remainder of Jobes career - but it's getting to the stage where we can't have them all in there.

 

[Old Campaigner]

TBH I'm starting to question Zaka's status as a smart footballer. He's talented no doubt, but he seems to me to do dumb things a bit and often get himself into poor positions that a smarter bloke might avoid.

 

[rines]

I'm happier today with our list than I have been for ten years. I really feel like we have finally, finally cut all the drift wood. I've felt that to win flag you need at least 4 'stars', 12 above average players and then 10 guys that are average/solidly play a role. Then have 5 that can come in and 'plug gaps'. So really you need 30 out of your 40 players to be 'ready to go' in some capacity.

Right now I see our list as having exactly that. I'm not including Rookie list.. because that is the Rookie list for a reason.
Stars (4): Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker
Above Average (9): Hurley, Carlisle, Myers, Hibberd, Zaharakis, Chapman, Fletcher, Z Merrett, Daniher (2015)
Average/Solid (10): Winderlich, Baguley, Gleeson, Cooney, Stanton, Dempsey, Colyer, Hocking, Howlett, TBell
Solid Back up (16): Giles, Ashby, Edwards, Kommer, Fantasia, Aylett, Hams, Gwilt, Ambrose, Pears, Melksham, Browne, EKav, J Merrett, NOB
Deadwood(0): None.
Developing (2): #17, #20

I mean it is actually incredible really. And I understand that others will rate players different but I see our list as amazingly balanced and even. Every single one of the guys on the 'back up' list.. I can see them being able to play a role when required, if required.

I understand we can't agree on our Best 22.. but for the point of this exercise.. I'll give you the bottom six of our current side:
Top 10: Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker, Zaharakis, Chapman, Hibberd, Baguley, Myers, Hurley
Next 6: Carlisle, Cooney, Dempsey, Daniher, Z Merrett, Winderlich
Bottom 6 (in this one team): Gleeson, Stanton, Colyer, Hocking, TBell, Fletcher

I don't care which team you are.. that is a decent bottom 6 imho. Especially when you consider that guys like Giles, Kommer, Edwards, Ashby, Hams, Gwilt, Melksham and J Merrett didn't even make the cut.

At some point it is going to click for this team and then watch out.. I fail to see how we don't win more games than we lose if we are taking that bottom 6 into games..

*P.S* Not so long ago I don't think we had 2 players that would have been 'walk up' starts at every other club in the league. I now think we have nine of them. Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker, Carlisle, Hibberd, Hurley, Z Merrett and Daniher.. would all walk into to just about every other team in the AFL right now. That is a great effort.. probably only 4 other teams in the comp that could have that same level of top end talent imho.

 

[Yoda_]

I'm happier today with our list than I have been for ten years. I really feel like we have finally, finally cut all the drift wood. I've felt that to win flag you need at least 4 'stars', 12 above average players and then 10 guys that are average/solidly play a role. Then have 5 that can come in and 'plug gaps'. So really you need 30 out of your 40 players to be 'ready to go' in some capacity.

Right now I see our list as having exactly that. I'm not including Rookie list.. because that is the Rookie list for a reason.
Stars (4): Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker
Above Average (9): Hurley, Carlisle, Myers, Hibberd, Zaharakis, Chapman, Fletcher, Z Merrett, Daniher (2015)
Average/Solid (10): Winderlich, Baguley, Gleeson, Cooney, Stanton, Dempsey, Colyer, Hocking, Howlett, TBell
Solid Back up (16): Giles, Ashby, Edwards, Kommer, Fantasia, Aylett, Hams, Gwilt, Ambrose, Pears, Melksham, Browne, EKav, J Merrett, NOB
Deadwood(0): None.
Developing (2): #17, #20

I mean it is actually incredible really. And I understand that others will rate players different but I see our list as amazingly balanced and even. Every single one of the guys on the 'back up' list.. I can see them being able to play a role when required, if required.

I understand we can't agree on our Best 22.. but for the point of this exercise.. I'll give you the bottom six of our current side:
Top 10: Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker, Zaharakis, Chapman, Hibberd, Baguley, Myers, Hurley
Next 6: Carlisle, Cooney, Dempsey, Daniher, Z Merrett, Winderlich
Bottom 6 (in this one team): Gleeson, Stanton, Colyer, Hocking, TBell, Fletcher

I don't care which team you are.. that is a decent bottom 6 imho. Especially when you consider that guys like Giles, Kommer, Edwards, Ashby, Hams, Gwilt, Melksham and J Merrett didn't even make the cut.

At some point it is going to click for this team and then watch out.. I fail to see how we don't win more games than we lose if we are taking that bottom 6 into games..

*P.S* Not so long ago I don't think we had 2 players that would have been 'walk up' starts at every other club in the league. I now think we have nine of them. Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker, Carlisle, Hibberd, Hurley, Z Merrett and Daniher.. would all walk into to just about every other team in the AFL right now. That is a great effort.. probably only 4 other teams in the comp that could have that same level of top end talent imho.

And this right here, sums up where our list is at and why we at Essendon think we are a top 4 side.

Top post

 

[BrunoV]

I'm happier today with our list than I have been for ten years. I really feel like we have finally, finally cut all the drift wood. I've felt that to win flag you need at least 4 'stars', 12 above average players and then 10 guys that are average/solidly play a role. Then have 5 that can come in and 'plug gaps'. So really you need 30 out of your 40 players to be 'ready to go' in some capacity.

Right now I see our list as having exactly that. I'm not including Rookie list.. because that is the Rookie list for a reason.
Stars (4): Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker
Above Average (9): Hurley, Carlisle, Myers, Hibberd, Zaharakis, Chapman, Fletcher, Z Merrett, Daniher (2015)
Average/Solid (10): Winderlich, Baguley, Gleeson, Cooney, Stanton, Dempsey, Colyer, Hocking, Howlett, TBell
Solid Back up (16): Giles, Ashby, Edwards, Kommer, Fantasia, Aylett, Hams, Gwilt, Ambrose, Pears, Melksham, Browne, EKav, J Merrett, NOB
Deadwood(0): None.
Developing (2): #17, #20

I mean it is actually incredible really. And I understand that others will rate players different but I see our list as amazingly balanced and even. Every single one of the guys on the 'back up' list.. I can see them being able to play a role when required, if required.

I understand we can't agree on our Best 22.. but for the point of this exercise.. I'll give you the bottom six of our current side:
Top 10: Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker, Zaharakis, Chapman, Hibberd, Baguley, Myers, Hurley
Next 6: Carlisle, Cooney, Dempsey, Daniher, Z Merrett, Winderlich
Bottom 6 (in this one team): Gleeson, Stanton, Colyer, Hocking, TBell, Fletcher

I don't care which team you are.. that is a decent bottom 6 imho. Especially when you consider that guys like Giles, Kommer, Edwards, Ashby, Hams, Gwilt, Melksham and J Merrett didn't even make the cut.

At some point it is going to click for this team and then watch out.. I fail to see how we don't win more games than we lose if we are taking that bottom 6 into games..

*P.S* Not so long ago I don't think we had 2 players that would have been 'walk up' starts at every other club in the league. I now think we have nine of them. Watson, Heppell, Goddard, Hooker, Carlisle, Hibberd, Hurley, Z Merrett and Daniher.. would all walk into to just about every other team in the AFL right now. That is a great effort.. probably only 4 other teams in the comp that could have that same level of top end talent imho.

Zaharakis strolls into any team in the competition without trouble.


I otherwise agree that the list is really healthy. There are a few areas that need to be addressed.

We have to look at more quality on both the inside and outside of midfield. The De Goey/Cockatoo type combination seems to be ideal and is the balance of player types I'd be looking at.

If Tom Lamb was available, though, you'd probably have to consider because, with some real speed and endurance, he compliments us extremely well as a key defender or a key forward (in the third tall/flanker role) and we are particularly short of those attributes in our key posts.

Unfortunately, from the sentimental perspective, it seems to rule out the recruitment of Goddard.


With Rayner, McKenna and Long on the rookie list the time is right to use the rest of the rookie spots on KPPs and rucks for the long term. A giant ruck, Gregory/athletic KPP(s) and another demoted senior listed player (Pears, Hams, Kommer or Browne) would be how I finish it off.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Chappy, Winderlich and Cooney are a problem IMO.

Basically we have three players who will probably produce the output of one fit healthy (very good) player this year.

You can't carry that on with such small list sizes.

 

[Yoda_]

Chappy, Winderlich and Cooney are a problem IMO.

Basically we have three players who will probably produce the output of one fit healthy (very good) player this year.

You can't carry that on with such small list sizes.

Id prefer someone who has shown they can make an impact on a game than kids who have hardly shown they can impact a VFL game let alone an AFL game.

 

[foj1]

Our midfield is the biggest issue.
We are one paced with only Travis Colyer a line breaking midfielder.
We also do not possess midfielders with elite endurance beside Brent Stanton. Watson and Myers are poor runners though inside brutes, hocking just okay and Heppell slightly above average.
Btw I reckon Stanton has declined considerably . Hope I am wrong.
I would like to draft another speedster and an endurance animal.

 

[Yoda_]

Our midfield is the biggest issue.
We are one paced with only Travis Colyer a line breaking midfielder.
We also do not possess midfielders with elite endurance beside Brent Stanton. Watson and Myers are poor runners though inside brutes, hocking just okay and Heppell slightly above average.
Btw I reckon Stanton has declined considerably . Hope I am wrong.
I would like to draft another speedster and an endurance animal.

You're obviously not a big wrap for the next gen kids already on our list Foj1?

 

[foj1]

You're obviously not a big wrap for the next gen kids already on our list Foj1?

As midfielders no.

Ashby no
J merrett no
Melksham no
OBrien unlikely
KAVANAGH unlikely
Browne no
Aylett no
Hams unlikely

Heppell and Watson A grader
Myers zaharakis b grader
Hocking tagger
Howlett cooney colyer Stanton c grader colyer improving Stanton declining
Z merrett midfielder or forward? Not sure yet.

 

[eth-dog]

foj1 what are your thoughts on Dalgleish?

 

[yaco55]

Think you have to be careful in reading FOJ's post - He is specifically referring to the midfield role - There is every chance that some of the players listed could play in other positions.

 

[Phone]

As midfielders no.

Ashby no
J merrett no
Melksham no
OBrien unlikely
KAVANAGH unlikely
Browne no
Aylett no
Hams unlikely

Heppell and Watson A grader
Myers zaharakis b grader
Hocking tagger
Howlett cooney colyer Stanton c grader colyer improving Stanton declining
Z merrett midfielder or forward? Not sure yet.

BUT SHAUN EDWARDS

 

[Ambrosia]

J merrett no
Melksham no

Surprised with these answers. Merrett to me is a prototypical wingman and Melksham looks at his best when he's given midfield time.

 

[Duckworth]

Our midfield is the biggest issue.
We are one paced with only Travis Colyer a line breaking midfielder.
We also do not possess midfielders with elite endurance beside Brent Stanton. Watson and Myers are poor runners though inside brutes, hocking just okay and Heppell slightly above average.
Btw I reckon Stanton has declined considerably . Hope I am wrong.
I would like to draft another speedster and an endurance animal.

must say I agree. 2 midfielders who are quick and can hit the scoreboard (as I posted in another thread) Foj1 would you be so kind as to throw up a couple of names of kids you have in mind?

 

[Keystone agony]

Our backline is wicked. Hooker and Hibberd shouldve really both been AA. Hurley might not be far away. Fletcher needs to perform when he plays. Baguley is the 2nd best small defender in the comp IMO.

DEMPSEY!!! Is the man had an average year but iull back him to bounce back to his 2011-2012 form and IMO he can still go better.

Midfields not bad either. A big year from Cooney is huge for this side, like Dempsey and like Winderlich. 3 keys for me, all have speed, all quality when at their best.

 

[Towno78]

Our midfield is the biggest issue.
We are one paced with only Travis Colyer a line breaking midfielder.
We also do not possess midfielders with elite endurance beside Brent Stanton. Watson and Myers are poor runners though inside brutes, hocking just okay and Heppell slightly above average.
Btw I reckon Stanton has declined considerably . Hope I am wrong.
I would like to draft another speedster and an endurance animal.

We obviously identified our one paced midfield as a problem that needs to be addressed a few seasons ago. So our problem now is no longer a slow/one-paced list but where the pace sits on our list.
Colyer, Dalgleish, Edwards, Rayner and soon to add Long/McKenna all with genuine pace sitting on the fringe-well out of our 22. (Gee our VFL side is going to be bloody quick!)
Zaka once was the only one with some pace (though not that quick), Z Merrett with more midfield minutes will help massively, and we all saw the difference it made when Colyer can hold his spot. We need another 1-2 of these players pushing for the 22.

In the draft I agree, I'd like us to get another speedster. I'd like someone who brings something a bit different from the above, we need someone who can play inside with genuine breakaway speed. Those sort of players are hard to find at pick 17 though, hope we can.

 

[Pweter]

One player not mentioned much here is Fantasia.

What are people's thoughts on his role going forwards? He obviously has natural attributes as a small forward, has played senior SANFL footy as a small defender prior to drafting, and from what I've seen with his clean hands, ability to keep his feet, natural reading of the play, tenacity etc has potential to be at worst an outside midfielder with some inside promise.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Sounds like the second coming of GAJ from that description.

 

[Pweter]

Sounds like the second coming of GAJ from that description.

So listing a few good qualities of a player, then saying "potential to be at worst an outside midfielder with some inside promise" means it sounds like GAJ.

Righto.

 

[eth-dog]

One player not mentioned much here is Fantasia.

What are people's thoughts on his role going forwards? He obviously has natural attributes as a small forward, has played senior SANFL footy as a small defender prior to drafting, and from what I've seen with his clean hands, ability to keep his feet, natural reading of the play, tenacity etc has potential to be at worst an outside midfielder with some inside promise.

I think long term he plays HF/mid, swapping with Zaka because his speed and class is going to be very helpful in the forward line.

 

[Towno78]

So listing a few good qualities of a player, then saying "potential to be at worst an outside midfielder with some inside promise" means it sounds like GAJ.

Righto.

I believe he was referring to Graham Angus Johncock??

 

[Bombers36]

As it stands out list is OK without being outstanding, and probably about average when compared with other AFL teams.

I've broken it down into player groups of 10

We have 10 players turning 28+ in 2015 so its fair to say many of these guys wont be at their best (or even at the club) in 2 - 5 years

the oldies

Watson, Goddard, Baguley, Chappy, Winders, Dempsey, Stanton, Fletch, Gwilt, and Cooney

This is somewhat problematic as a lot of these players are still our better performers....

Outside of these guys there is still plenty of talent pushing through, and have shown enough to suggest some of these guys can pick up the slack when the older players are gone;-

the future

Heppell, Daniher, Zakka, Hooker, Hurley, Hibberd, TBell, Myers, Z.Merrett, and Carlisle

The next group of 10 are players have shown ability no doubt but need to improve if we are going to be a force over the next few years;-

players with 'potential'

Colyer, Hocking, Howlett, Gleeson, J.Merrett, Ambrose, Fantasia, Melksham, Giles, Kommer

Any players outside of that if we are totally honest are on the fringe or in development so hence we have some work to do with our list over the next few years