The Ashes - Australia vs England 2010/11 Test Series.

[beez]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Out of the two you mentioned White is in better form than both of them.

That's what I'm saying, Ferg and Usman aren't staking a claim at the moment and they are both well ahead of White in the pecking order. If White plays a test this Summer, I'll give you my Collingwood membership

 

[DWil6]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

This English team would have been spanked unceremoniously by our team a few years back but this Australian team is one of the worst in memory.

 

[Histrionics]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

That's what I'm saying, Ferg and Usman aren't staking a claim at the moment and they are both well ahead of White in the pecking order. If White plays a test this Summer, I'll give you my Collingwood membership

Lol.

They are ahead in the pecking order in the selectors eyes. I just don't agree with the selectors because I'm a Victorian.

 

[Quicky]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Good on Huss for making a big score.

I don't think these will happen but next test my changes would be;

In: White, Bollinger.

Out: North, Johnson.

Yep I'd like to see that. I don't buy the White is not a test batsmen argument. He might not be as technically gifted as some of our batsmen but he's improved alot, he's patient at the start of his innings and he makes up for alot of his short comings with grit and his ability to take a team apart when he gets his eye in.

I'd also be happy with Ferguson or perhaps even McDonald who would help out our bowling attack as well.

Bollinger in for Johnson is a must - Johnson is bowling lemons. All our bowlers need to go back and watch some Glenn McGrath to see how to bowl line and length properly. We've been way too short.

 

[Axl the great]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Bottom line is Australia are suffering from a number of things which have seen it slide down the rankings the most glaring is its bowlers do not know how, or are unable to dry up the runs and force batsmen to make errors.

Most decent players can negotiate the odd great ball when there is no pressure to score, good batmen get themselves out, as opposed to getting the unplayable ball, this is where Warne McGrath and the forgotten one Stuart Clark excelled they forced mistakes because of their miserly approach and Ponting backed them with fields to suit.

Ponting does not trust his bowlers now and nor should he but he is a much more defensive minded captain who has no ability to go in for the kill, he sets fields to give easy singles to new batsmen and doesnt back his bowlers to bowl to aggresive fields anymore, basically he is stuffed if he does stuffed if he doesnt.

The previous great Aussie sides would attack a batsmen struggling to score even if he was on 60 or 70 at the time, we used to make it happen and to me it looks like now that Ponting and the bowlers just hope it happens.

 

[danielnajdek]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Adelaide will be a draw as well. Flattest pitch in Australia. Wouldnt surprise me if someone makes a massive score again.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Australia blow. The last few days has been bloody brilliant to watch.

Looking fwd to heading to day 1 at Adelaide Oval and watching England carry on from day 5 of the Gabba

At the risk of tainting the ashes stirring with common sense the last 3 days of the test match wasn't great for anyone. 9 for 900 on a deck with a fair bit in it for the bowlers. I usually wouldn't read too much into the first test of series but both teams bowling line ups are far too fragile.

Lol.

They are ahead in the pecking order in the selectors eyes. I just don't agree with the selectors because I'm a Victorian.

Agree with this. I don't know how anyone can claim "White is not a test batsmen", especially in this series for any reason other then he isn't the most technically correct player. If that is the reason then I'd say nor is Katich who has been our most consistant player over the last few years. Cook isn't exactly text book and we saw what he did too us. It's far more about knowing your limitations and being able to combat them.

In the past the question marks I have had over White being a test batsmen have been 1) Does he have the patience? He has certainly shown that in his first class career over the last couple of years 2) Can he survive on dodgy decks too be able to contribute in the last innings? A hundred against Englad (albeit England A's bowling line up) on day 4 at Hobart deffinately says yes to that. 3) Can he handle the short ball from express bowlers? England doesn't have one so that really doesn't matter at this stage.

I can't see how you'd explain picking Usman right now. He is a good player but he hasn't made runs of late and you'd want to pick players making runs. On current form and on the Adelaide team Hughes, White or McDonald should really play. Hughes to open and Watson to bat middle order and bowl more if his body is capable of bowling more in a day.

Otherwise White too bat middle order.

If they want to bolster the middle order McDonald is in better batting and bowling form then Smith who I just don't think is ready for test cricket considering as I mentioned earlier, I think he is actually a better batsmen then bowler.

Adelaide will be a draw as well. Flattest pitch in Australia. Wouldnt surprise me if someone makes a massive score again.

This. It's going to be the talk until Adeliade but the lack of wickets should really worry both sides. People aren't glossing over the amount in the pitch a little too much. Neither team had a bowling line up able to build enough pressure to make the most of it. Austaralia has been to reliant on Mitch being our wicket taker and we look hopeless without that. England's bowling line up is slightly better but Broad, Finn and to a lesser extent Swann need to give far more support to Anderson.

I know Finn took 6 but a lot of that was soft late innings wickets. Neither he or Broad looked like they had it in them to really trouble a batsmen and build pressure. Swann looked goodish on day 5 when the ball was turning a stack but I think the Aussies are good enough players of off spin bowling to stop him being too much of an influence. If he has a good tour England will win, not because he has won it for them but just because I think for him to have a good series he will be cleaning up the tail because I can't see him getting too many top order wickets.

Axl is spot on re: Pointing's captaincy btw. Punter has recieved some harsh crticisms over his captaincy but people are really over looking how big the gap is in the quality of the bowling of captain's past too now.

To put it simply we don't have a stock bowler. In the past we have had McGrath, Warne, S Clark too turn to who could dry up the runs whilst threatening to take a wicket. Right now we don't have a bowler who can do that job. Watson looked like it but he can't bowl long spells. It makes it hard for a captain.

On Johnson I think the credit has to go to England for coming up with a plan to combat him and his confidence seemed to drop and if a bowler starts looking for answers instead of just doing what they do best, well more often then not you get a guy bowling like Johnno did late in the 2nd innings.

 

[Quicky]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

To put it simply we don't have a stock bowler. In the past we have had McGrath, Warne, S Clark too turn to who could dry up the runs whilst threatening to take a wicket. Right now we don't have a bowler who can do that job. Watson looked like it but he can't bowl long spells. It makes it hard for a captain.

This is a point in McDonalds favour for mine. He might only be a medium pacer but he's pretty frugal, can hold down an end for a long period of time to help build pressure, and has a knack of taking wickets too.

He would offer great balance to the line up coming in at six and with what he can offer with the ball as well.

 

[Histrionics]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

This is a point in McDonalds favour for mine. He might only be a medium pacer but he's pretty frugal, can hold down an end for a long period of time to help build pressure, and has a knack of taking wickets too.

He would offer great balance to the line up coming in at six and with what he can offer with the ball as well.

Agree. He done nothing wrong with the ball in the tests he played.

The thing that is probably stopping him from being in the side right now is his batting.

 

[beez]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Agree. He done nothing wrong with the ball in the tests he played.

The thing that is probably stopping him from being in the side right now is his batting.

The thing that is stopping him from getting in the side is his injury, I don't think he'll be available till January. And on his batting, 4 matches, 372 runs, 3 hundreds at an average of 93 so far this summer

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

This is a point in McDonalds favour for mine. He might only be a medium pacer but he's pretty frugal, can hold down an end for a long period of time to help build pressure, and has a knack of taking wickets too.

He would offer great balance to the line up coming in at six and with what he can offer with the ball as well.

Yep, I must admitt I didn't know he was injured but I think when comparing him too Smith who would be his main competition he is a more reliable bowler and is in better batting form.

I think another thing the we need too look at in our bowling balance is the spin option. It seems we are picking guys like Doherty and Hauritz who are much more suited to the shorter form of the game. Flat, quickish not a huge turners of the ball. I can see the merit in it considering our previously mentioned lack of a bowler who can dry up an end but I don't think this is the type of spinner we should be looking at developing (and Smith is another one of them.) I would have much rathered us stick with a guy like Krezja or find a similar type to develop. A guy with big flight and spin. Warne early days never had the control it is something that needs to be developed but I think history shows it's much more likely a guy will develop control then it is a guy will learn how to flight and spin the ball.

In terms of a stock type bowler I don't think it's enough to just be cheap. Cricket is largely a mental game and if your getting the ball out of the middle of the bat comfortably and getting the odd single here and there (which tends to happen to most defensive spinners) you never feel under to much pressure. Ideally you want your stock bowler to be someone who has a bit of variation and keep the batsmen guessing. Mcdonald whilst not a sexy bowler certainly has that ability. He has a number of variations in pace and cut, and hits the right area on pitches to make getting your footwork right hard.

I don't know the kind of form he has been in recentally but if we did decide to go down the track of fast tracking the youth, I 'd be really tempted to throw a guy like Hazlewood into the mix.

 

[Histrionics]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

The thing that is stopping him from getting in the side is his injury, I don't think he'll be available till January. And on his batting, 4 matches, 372 runs, 3 hundreds at an average of 93 so far this summer

Always trying to shut me down aren't ya beez lol

I meant his batting when he played for Australia. I didn't realise he was injured either.

 

[Quicky]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

The thing that is stopping him from getting in the side is his injury, I don't think he'll be available till January. And on his batting, 4 matches, 372 runs, 3 hundreds at an average of 93 so far this summer

Yeah I wasn't aware of that. Broken hand apparently. It's a real shame as the more I thought about it the more I think he was the man we needed in.

Given that i'd be bringing White in given Fergusons form. White offers us a match winning batsmen at his best and will lift our fielding which has been ordinary.

On spinners I just don't think we have a good option right now. I don't mind Doherty, at least he has a go and has the right temperament. I'm not sure on Krejza, he was very very expensive, it's hard to say if he would have improved.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Yeah I wasn't aware of that. Broken hand apparently. It's a real shame as the more I thought about it the more I think he was the man we needed in.

Given that i'd be bringing White in given Fergusons form. White offers us a match winning batsmen at his best and will lift our fielding which has been ordinary.

On spinners I just don't think we have a good option right now. I don't mind Doherty, at least he has a go and has the right temperament. I'm not sure on Krejza, he was very very expensive, it's hard to say if he would have improved.

Krezja was very expensive but look at Warne's early days figures and form he was too. Whilst it shouldn't be a choice between tidyness and spin and wicket taking ability if it is I'd rather a spinner who had the later. I don't think we are doing enough to find one. Instead we are rotating the former types.

The more I think about it the more I think the shorter form of the game is semi- ruining the art of wicket taking spin bowling. Slow flat bowlers are often the best at keeping the runs down in 20/20 and if that is being coached I think it would be hard to be trained to bowl the ball up if your stock delivery is flat. It would be easier to have a flat change up. All that considered I think we need to make more of an effort to nurture / find / develop a guy who is a big spinner of the ball and a real wicket taker, rather then handy one day type bowlers to dry an end up. I am thinking of Hauritz, Doherty and Smith when saying this but there isn't a real big turner of the ball in that bunch.

On Fergie I love him as a batsmen to watch but I don't think he has that "big score" ability that you want in a test batsmen. A guy making lots of 50-70's isn't going to win you many matches. Tests are more often then not won by sides with a guy making a real big hundred and a few handy contributions around that. I think Ferg makes the cardinal mistake of getting starts and getting out and you can't carry that into test cricket for mine. If he can get the concentration right he will be great because he has all the required skills to be a great test batsmen, solid technical base, scoring shots all around the wicket but he just gets himself out after making starts too often.

Also noticed that Hazlewood has stress fracture of the back which is unfortunate, really rate him. The most exciting young fast bowler we have produced in a while. Quick, solid action good lengths and gets a little bit both in the air and off the deck.

 

[Histrionics]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

The more I think about it the more I think the shorter form of the game is semi- ruining the art of wicket taking spin bowling. Slow flat bowlers are often the best at keeping the runs down in 20/20 and if that is being coached I think it would be hard to be trained to bowl the ball up if your stock delivery is flat. It would be easier to have a flat change up. All that considered I think we need to make more of an effort to nurture / find / develop a guy who is a big spinner of the ball and a real wicket taker, rather then handy one day type bowlers to dry an end up. I am thinking of Hauritz, Doherty and Smith when saying this but there isn't a real big turner of the ball in that bunch.

You could see it happening yesterday with Doherty. He wasn't changing his pace at all.

 

[Histrionics]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

On spinners I just don't think we have a good option right now. I don't mind Doherty, at least he has a go and has the right temperament. I'm not sure on Krejza, he was very very expensive, it's hard to say if he would have improved.

He was expensive but at least he took some wickets.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

While I am ranting here I think The big Hilenhaus is getting off the hook a fair bit here. Just doesn't do enough when he doesn't have the new ball. Looked dangerous with the new ball and pedestrain at most other times. Johnno may have looked to the lose the plot and gone wicketless but he was coming on 4th change with the old pill on a pitch that really responded to the new ball. The Haus got what one for the match opening in both innings?

If we drop Johnno for Doug and struggle to take wickets in Adeliade (which is the most likely outcome) I'd be tempted to throw Mitch back in, give him the new ball and take out Hilf.

 

[Coin_Toss]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

I'm disappointed we haven't settled with one spinner since Warne's retirement. If we want to be fair on Doherty we must persist with him, rather than make him another "scrapegoat" when we feel like it. It must be said Hauritz had a good run but could've done with another series under his belt before making a call on him. Graeme Swann was shown perseverance for a while before he made an impression, sometimes patience is all that's needed in this craft.

My XI for the Adelaide Test:
Watson
Katich
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
North
Haddin
Doherty
Siddle
Bollinger
Hilfenhaus

North is lucky to survive the cut, but at least he makes runs when he needs them so fingers crossed.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

I'm disappointed we haven't settled with one spinner since Warne's retirement. If we want to be fair on Doherty we must persist with him, rather than make him another "scrapegoat" when we feel like it. It must be said Hauritz had a good run but could've done with another series under his belt before making a call on him. Graeme Swann was shown perseverance for a while before he made an impression, sometimes patience is all that's needed in this craft.

My XI for the Adelaide Test:
Watson
Katich
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
North
Haddin
Doherty
Siddle
Bollinger
Hilfenhaus

North is lucky to survive the cut, but at least he makes runs when he needs them so fingers crossed.

To be fair I think the scapegoating and the type of spinner we have been picking a linked. Hauritz got a great run I hardly think dropping him was unfair. Although a lot of it has to do with the balance of our bowling line up as a whole.

That said more often then not the really sucessful test spin bowlers are the ones who are first and foremost attacking bowlers who try to beat the batsmen with flight and spin. We have IMO not put enough emphasis on finding a spinner like this and as such we continue to pick guys who are reliant on the pace bowlers bowling well so that they can either A) Get cheap wickets as the batsmen try to take them on or B) Get cheap tail end wickets.

I am not suggesting Doherty should be dropped right now but I think something needs to be done long term to find a spinner who is a wicket taker first. Otherwise guys like Dot and Ritz will be the scapegoat because they aren't the sort of bowlers who take wickets when the chips are down.

More then anything I really think playing Smith and Doherty in the same side (if you are picking Smith based on his bowling, which I think they are doing) is pointless because I think bowling two bowlers who bowl different variations of straight breaks is a flawed plan.

FWIW I actually like Doherty as a cricketer btw.

 

[mattys123]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

If we drop Johnno for Doug and struggle to take wickets in Adeliade (which is the most likely outcome) I'd be tempted to throw Mitch back in, give him the new ball and take out Hilf.

I'm the same here, I almost don't watch Johnson dropped, just because his best bowling performances (in Oz anyway) have come in Perth, where the 3rd test is to be held.

Maybe bring the rug in for Adelaide, and as you said, if he or Hilfy struggles, bring Mitch back for Perth.

We need a second spinning option in Adelaide though, the ball always turns there, and the pitch usually falls away on the final 2 days, so we need either Smith or North as that second spin bowling option.

Did Doherty do enough also? What did he get, 2 tail end wickets, even though he looked ok at times, I don't think he did anything Hauritz wouldn't have done.

Some tough questions for the Poms too, do they play Panesar to back Swann up, do they drop a quick for Monty or a batsman, tough choices really.

2nd test may decide this series, if the Poms win it, it's all but over really, as the Aussie would have to win the last 3 tests to get the Ashes back, and can anyone really see that happening?

 

[beez]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Always trying to shut me down aren't ya beez lol

lol, sorry, I'll be nicer

We'll come back in 12 months and have the McDonald argument.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

The more the series goes on the more our original issues are highlighted. We dropped Hilfy and Johnson for their lack of ability to take wickets. We replaced them with Harris and Doug, which makes our pace attack Doug, Harris and Sids. Three very straight bowlers who are "goers" and hit the deck hard but all varying degrees of average. All three are bowlers who require batsmen to make mistakes or a lot of assitance off the deck rather then being able to produce real wicket taking balls. Add to that Doherty (or Ritz for that matter) and we probably have the straightest bowling attack in world cricket no spin or swing what so ever.

I actually rate all of Harris, Doug and Sids but I don't think you can play all three and expect to be bowling a team out unless you have a guy like Warne or the chucker at the other end.

On that England are slightly better in that Anderson is a good swing bowler and Swan a good spin bowler but they have similar issues. The Aussies collapse was a lot more to do with the run out and a pearler at the right time to Pointing then anything else. Similar to the sids hat trick saving the aussies in the first test.

The quality of the cricket this series thus far has been poor and it has been the fielding that has been the difference. Both sides are so far behind India it's not even funny.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

I actually rate all of Harris, Doug and Sids but I don't think you can play all three and expect to be bowling a team out unless you have a guy like Warne or the chucker at the other end.

You will enjoy Perth then. You will have all of them and Mitch Johnson playing and Doherty will come out and North will be the part time spinner

England should take care of Australia weather permitting. Australia will be lucky to get a draw out of this.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

You will enjoy Perth then. You will have all of them and Mitch Johnson playing and Doherty will come out and North will be the part time spinner

England should take care of Australia weather permitting. Australia will be lucky to get a draw out of this.

Perth is infact one pitch that you could get away with an attack like that because the ball doesn't tend to swing much there anyway and to be fair for most of yesterday North was bowling better the Doherty.

England should take care of Australia because they are bowling on day 4 on 5 on a pitch that is known to get up and down. I wouldn't be happy with your bowling attack and performances if I was an English cricket fan either. This test match for you guys has been set up by a run out. Your bowling attack looks only slightly less pedestrain then ours and the fact that your saying "should" instead of will probably indicates exactly what I am saying you have no faith in your bowlers to take wickets.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Re: The Ashes - Australia vs England Test Series.

Perth is infact one pitch that you could get away with an attack like that because the ball doesn't tend to swing much there anyway and to be fair for most of yesterday North was bowling better the Doherty.

England should take care of Australia because they are bowling on day 4 on 5 on a pitch that is known to get up and down. I wouldn't be happy with your bowling attack and performances if I was an English cricket fan either. This test match for you guys has been set up by a run out. Your bowling attack looks only slightly less pedestrain then ours and the fact that your saying "should" instead of will probably indicates exactly what I am saying you have no faith in your bowlers to take wickets.

i said should due to the weather. If it doesnt rain and affect play then England will bowl out Australia. I will be dissapointed if we cant.
Not happy with our bowling attack and performances? Day 1 we bowled out Australia lol. We were a bit unlucky earlier today but all in all im happy with what they have produced.
Swann in the 1st innings bowled great as did Anderson. Would like to get more out of Broad however