The Bombers ASADA/WADA Saga

[Lace Out]

Was the only player to state he did not want to participate.

Due to morbid fear of needles.Sheep mentality ruled with the rest as it would have at every other club.

 

[M Malice]

just watched browny being interviewed on fox, said if he was in the same position in 2012 as the essendon players he and all the team would have done the same thing. you take and trust the information the club gives you, that's the way a team works, he really feels for the players.
although he did say the afl have no choice after the verdict, jobe has to have the brownlow stripped.

 

[CarloLion]

Matthew Lloyd was actually interesting on Footy classified tonight. Mentioned poor old Mark McVeigh was basically marched off the premises at GWS midway into a coaching drill today.

Said he would be surprised if the Bombers win a game this year or recover from this in less than 3 years .

 

[CarloLion]

Haha, bombers board gem #12479:

'And make Cousins hand his back, make Brisbane Lions hand back the 2001 premiership..... where does it end'

 

[Hollow Knight]

Haha, bombers board gem #12479:

'And make Cousins hand his back, make Brisbane Lions hand back the 2001 premiership..... where does it end'

Probably ends somewhere short of punishing a team who used mere saline solution via a completely legal at the time administration technique.

 

[Gadzorks]

just watched browny being interviewed on fox, said if he was in the same position in 2012 as the essendon players he and all the team would have done the same thing. you take and trust the information the club gives you, that's the way a team works, he really feels for the players.
although he did say the afl have no choice after the verdict, jobe has to have the brownlow stripped.

So, Dustin Fletcher also reached record worthy milestones that included games that were played while being injected with banned substances. Would he have reached those without the help in maintaining/repairing the normal (for AFL players) soft tissue damage?
Records include most games played by father and son, Rd 1 2014 Essendon record number of games, Rd 7 2014, 3rd in the all time VFL/AFL games list, Rd 1 2015 and round 1 2015 2nd oldest player and round 9 2015 3rd player to reach 400 games.
Records according to Wikipedia

 

[dlanod]

So, Dustin Fletcher also reached record worthy milestones that included games that were played while being injected with banned substances. Would he have reached those without the help in maintaining/repairing the normal (for AFL players) soft tissue damage?
Records include most games played by father and son, Rd 1 2014 Essendon record number of games, Rd 7 2014, 3rd in the all time VFL/AFL games list, Rd 1 2015 and round 1 2015 2nd oldest player and round 9 2015 3rd player to reach 400 games.
Records according to Wikipedia

Except there's no actual evidence that the substances in question have any impact on soft tissue damage (or much of anything else). There's anecdotal evidence but actual studies indicate no link.

 

[dmac_55]

Just on the draft position, Gil was on 360 and stated they have been punished and the cards will fall where they fall..

I would prefer them to be capped where they finished last year in terms of first round pick.. Dons probably apply for a priority pick in 2017 or 2018!

 

[POBT]

http://www.theshovel.com.au/2016/01...ffers-to-show-essendon-how-to-cheat-properly/

Seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong has contacted AFL club Essendon, offering to reveal the missing step in the team’s cheating program: winning.

“They’ve done all the right things. Sourced the drugs, injected the drugs, destroyed the evidence. So they’re off to a great start. Now it’s just that last little step that they seem to have overlooked – being better than other teams,” he said.

 

[knaf]

Trying not to comment on this mess, but just had to post this from the Age editorial. Sums up my view of hird:

"Former coach James Hird, whom we believe has not been sufficiently disciplined for his role, contends the court's decision amounts to a miscarriage of justice for the players. Hird needs to recognise that not one minute of this dangerously experimental, legally protracted and emotionally fraught saga would have occurred if he, Hird, had done what was required of a coach, a mentor, a club leader – and that was to refuse to allow fanciful concoctions of supplements and peptides to be injected into any player in his care."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-editorial/negligence-that-beggars-belief-20160112-gm4b34.html#ixzz3x4LxsosF
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

 

[Clarkythelion]

Probably ends somewhere short of punishing a team who used mere saline solution via a completely legal at the time administration technique.

In fact as I understand it you can still do what Brisbane did but you just can't do it at Half Time like Brisbane was with the players already having the tube in their arm to run the saline solution into which wasn't a good look for the kiddies. Brisbane had the issues of playing and training in the heat and then trying to re-hydrate the payers and the solution is/was totally legal, it was just the method chosen and place it was being done which was later ruled as 'not a good look'. Remembering also at the time they had players sitting in a freezer at half time, had planes flying at lower altitudes, had buckets of water in hotel rooms to stop dehydration - all totally legal and players didn't sign a waiver not to the club doctor.

 

[western royboy]

Except there's no actual evidence that the substances in question have any impact on soft tissue damage (or much of anything else). There's anecdotal evidence but actual studies indicate no link.

They were the study....

 

[alscotoz2]

just watched browny being interviewed on fox, said if he was in the same position in 2012 as the essendon players he and all the team would have done the same thing. you take and trust the information the club gives you, that's the way a team works, he really feels for the players.
although he did say the afl have no choice after the verdict, jobe has to have the brownlow stripped.

What was also interesting was when Wilson gave her opinion on Hird's role in this whole bloody mess, he didn't say a word. In the past he has defended Hird to the point of almost crying....as if Wilson was to blame for what has happened and Hird was an innocent bystander. Maybe the penny has dropped that his mate is a twat and to defend him now would also made him look like a twat (or a bigger twat).

Matthew Lloyd was actually interesting on Footy classified tonight. Mentioned poor old Mark McVeigh was basically marched off the premises at GWS midway into a coaching drill today.

Said he would be surprised if the Bombers win a game this year or recover from this in less than 3 years .

What was also interesting was when Wilson gave her opinion on Hird's role in this whole bloody mess, he didn't say a word. In the past he has defended Hird to the point of almost crying....as if Wilson was to blame for what has happened and Hird was an innocent bystander. Maybe the penny has finally dropped that his mate is a twat and to defend him now would also made him look like a twat (or a bigger twat).

 

[Fatcat08]

my goodness the AFLPA have a very high opinion of themselves. Maybe instead of throwing stones all around the place and demanding fanciful things like going away from the WADA code they should sit back and ask themselves why not one of these players felt comfortable raising this with the AFLPA. I mean after all they are representing the players and are supposed to be a major resource for them.

I almost spat out my drink when they went and mentioned that sports like the NFL, NBA don't sign on to the WADA code and "have their house in order". I wonder if the players they represent would be happy to take a pay cut in that instance. With government money removed for things like junior and grass roots development, contributions to stadiums and facilities etc, the AFL would somehow have to fund this, which would lead to less money at the top level. I doubt they've considered that in their latest round of rants.

Perhaps they would do well to keep in mind that they're not the most important party in this sport. That belongs to the fans, who are the sole reason the sport is where it is today and without whom there is no money at all, either through attendances, tv rights or sponsorship. I know they're there to advocate for players but in recent times they've come across as completely disregarding any other parties involved. Its the same stupid short sighted thinking expressed by those who want to go back to the VFL days (cause that was such a raging success for clubs and players financially).

These people are supposed to be professionals, but they strike me as absolute amateurs who can't see past their own little fiefdoms.

 

[dlanod]

I almost spat out my drink when they went and mentioned that sports like the NFL, NBA don't sign on to the WADA code and "have their house in order".

One of the biggest lies to come out yesterday IMO. The NBA and NFL have so many loopholes the AFLPA might as well argue for no drug testing. The NFL is barely moving on HGH testing because of the collective bargaining angle. The NBA have a mandated limit on drug tests and once you've reached that you know you will not be tested again that season. Neither have testing for anything approaching modern performance enhancing drugs. Neither have anything approaching best practice for drug testing. It's like a murderer arguing Somalia's justice system is the best because their chances of being caught by a non-existent police force is negligible.

 

[alscotoz2]

What was also interesting was when Wilson gave her opinion on Hird's role in this whole bloody mess, he didn't say a word. In the past he has defended Hird to the point of almost crying....as if Wilson was to blame for what has happened and Hird was an innocent bystander. Maybe the penny has dropped that his mate is a twat and to defend him now would also made him look like a twat (or a bigger twat).


What was also interesting was when Wilson gave her opinion on Hird's role in this whole bloody mess, he didn't say a word. In the past he has defended Hird to the point of almost crying....as if Wilson was to blame for what has happened and Hird was an innocent bystander. Maybe the penny has finally dropped that his mate is a twat and to defend him now would also made him look like a twat (or a bigger twat).

SORRY. Double post.

 

[Dom PC]

Surely if Jobe losses his Brownlow, he will lose his 2012 AA selection as well?

 

[lionbear]

just watched browny being interviewed on fox, said if he was in the same position in 2012 as the essendon players he and all the team would have done the same thing. you take and trust the information the club gives you, that's the way a team works, he really feels for the players.
although he did say the afl have no choice after the verdict, jobe has to have the brownlow stripped.

I think the big difference in this finding is though that yes the players would do what the club said, but in 30 tests only one player admitted to taking vitamin B by injection when asked if they have been given anything, It amazes me that if they believed it was totally legal that not one of them would not have said "Yes, Steven Dank is injecting me weekly with legal supplements" Thats where this gets a little grey, yes Browny and every player in the AFL would have just done what they trusted in the Doctor, but would they have not mentioned it when getting tested if they had no concerns to its legality.

I feel sorry for the players, but this would make a good episode of air crash investigations where one little thing was changed by either the club or player this whole crash would have never gotten so bad.

I truly feel sorry for the players, they have suffered a lot and another 12 months is nothing but salt in the wound, but they decided to play with the big Boys and every sport person knew they were jumping into a fire that was going to be hard to get out of, especially when they could have like the sharks took a 4 week penalty and moved on.

 

[M Malice]

I think the big difference in this finding is though that yes the players would do what the club said, but in 30 tests only one player admitted to taking vitamin B by injection when asked if they have been given anything, It amazes me that if they believed it was totally legal that not one of them would not have said "Yes, Steven Dank is injecting me weekly with legal supplements" Thats where this gets a little grey, yes Browny and every player in the AFL would have just done what they trusted in the Doctor, but would they have not mentioned it when getting tested if they had no concerns to its legality.

I feel sorry for the players, but this would make a good episode of air crash investigations where one little thing was changed by either the club or player this whole crash would have never gotten so bad.

I truly feel sorry for the players, they have suffered a lot and another 12 months is nothing but salt in the wound, but they decided to play with the big Boys and every sport person knew they were jumping into a fire that was going to be hard to get out of, especially when they could have like the sharks took a 4 week penalty and moved on.

great points. agree can not work out why they did not take the cronulla type bans when offered. air crash investigators? yes. though probably deserves its own mini series. "ASADA WADA YADA, YADA, YADA" runs for 3 seasons 22 episodes per season.

 

[Viceregal]

SORRY. Double post.

I thought you had done it deliberately - one comment perfectly designed to represent each person (I assumed Robbo for the first one although didn't know for sure) and that it was cleverly presented - ah well!

 

[POBT]

Due to morbid fear of needles.

I thought I read that that was a myth or has been overstated and that he has had needles for things like cortisone before.

 

[Lace Out]

I thought I read that that was a myth or has been overstated and that he has had needles for things like cortisone before.

Not sure,hadn't heard that.Maybe he would take a needle if it was absolutely necessary for the continuation of his career but wasn't putting the supplements in that basket.

 

[Full Wingspan]

I posted my view in this thread almost a year ago (March 2015) and still believe it to be relevant and true to today. Most of what I have predicted, to my delight, has come true throughout this saga.

Note; the only amendment to this post that I have made is about my incorrect assumption that the AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal, and CAS had a standard of proof that was the balance of probabilities, rather than to a comfortable satisfaction.

I'm going to try and give a detailed analysis on what I think should go down at the tribunal hearing and the rationale behind it.

Firstly, I'm going to make a number of assumptions;

• Essendon have been found on the beyond comfortable satisfaction that they took a number of prohibited substances during the 2012 and 2013 seasons; and

• Essendon players, based on the assumption that they are guilty, will receive 12 to 24 month term suspensions.
  • I have used Ahmed Saad's case to make a prediction regarding the length of the penalty imposed. At face value, it appears that his doping violation is not as severe as the one alleged by ASADA to the Essendon players.

Assuming the above are proven, I believe the Dons (and ex-Dons) players should all be banned for at least 12 - 24 months. There is no reason why any special treatment should be given to them and they should serve their bans much the way Ahmed Saad has. This scenario would obviously deplete Essendon as a team, and they would be forced to contract top up players under special rules to even field a team. Assuming these top up players have been acquired under these special rules, Essendon should be barred from receiving premiership points until their entire list is made up of players obtained under usual rules. That is, allow them to enter the draft, allow them to trade, and build a team while their existing players serve their suspensions. This is not so much an ASADA or doping related penalty, but rather one that compensates the rest of the league as they have been given an unfair advantage to obtain players under such extraordinary circumstances.

The benefit for the AFL and Essendon to allow them to have top up players is related to one, having a team to field, and consequently enabling the AFL to honour its television rights agreement.

All awards earned in the alleged period the doping took place are to be revoked and handed to those who finished behind them where applicable. As much as I like these him as a player, Watson's Brownlow medal should therefore go to Cotchin/Mitchell and Essendon as a football team should be retrospectively handed the wooden spoon in all offending seasons the doping took place.

• NB: The inspiration for such penalties is largely inspired by those handed to the Melbourne Storm by the NRL when they were found to have systematically breached their salary cap.

Other Observations

• I have no idea why ASADA have been made out to be this incompetent, rabble of an organisation - they have worked extremely well given the extreme circumstances, quality of investigation (especially when most of the records were "lost" by the EFC). If anything, these sentiments should be directed at Essendon and even the AFL. There is no doubt that they are just as worried at the prospect at potentially losing another team as this would be extremely adverse to their commercial interests. I have no doubt that the AFL tried to warn Essendon and played a questionable part in the sage - but this has been all to protect the Dons. I don't know why Essendon supporters are thinking the AFL is to blame for this in any shape or that they're "out to get them" - if anything they have tried to minimise the damage. There is no doubt in my mind that there is been a smear campaign in order to trivialise the case and evidence compiled by ASADA, and the average supported who expects results within a week is eating it up. This has all been done to damage the credibility of ASADA. Come D-day I think many will be shocked regarding the seriousness of the penalties handed down. If they are just a slap on the wrist, WADA and ASADA will see to it that a minimum of 12 month bans are sustained.

• I am also puzzled as to why people are targeting ASADA re: the length of time to conduct the investigation. This has been an extremely complex, time consuming and resource heavy investigation. Doping of this level has not yet been seen in Australian sport. Their timing has been about on par and what I would just about expect for saga of this calibre. It doesn't help with all the politics involved and pathetic appeals with the sole objective to save the face of the Essendon Football Club and James Hird (see below point).

• Appeals by James Hird have largely attempted to save face amongst the public. You can't plead your innocence with the public and your supporters than not appeal your decision - clearly Hird was clutching at straws after Justice Middleton dismissed his appeal within 14 minutes. Legally speaking, his case copped a 300 point smashing.

• This saga, and its effects will linger on for years if not decades with other lawsuits. All hell will break loose and the floodgates will well and truly open when players start suing the Essendon Football Club for breaching their duty of car and causing the loss of future economic earnings and reputation amongst other things.

• Players are not as innocent as everyone thinks. This observation is purely a personal one, but it is founded on a discussion I personally had in my hometown of Geelong with Dean Robinson shortly after his television interview. He explained that players were well aware of what they were injecting, and when the individual whom administered these injections was absent one training session, the players came directly to him insisting that they need their injections before they could train/continue with their program. People seem to also be forgetting that although the club and its medical staff have a duty of care towards their players, there needs to be some onus on the players to ensure that everything they are doing is above board. That is why they are getting paid the big dollars.

 

[royboy2]

I thought I read that that was a myth or has been overstated and that he has had needles for things like cortisone before.

Yeah I heard the fear of needles was BS & he was the only one that stood up and said no this is wrong

 

[Len S]

Gill made some good points in supporting the players and there are some points he let go through to the keeper as well.
(1) The code has some limitations in team sport - we talk about team bonding, culture, playing as a unit and supporting and following your peers is part of any team. A team bonds and goes to 'war' together and did any one player feel strong enough to break out of that and in that is a limitation of the code in a team.
(2) Advice the club gave the players should have rung alarm bells, signing secretive documents and so on and avoiding the doctor was all bad advice and a pack mentality of keeping together as a team locked players into that when the leaders were driving it.
(3) The legal advice is what no one is touching. Essendon fought the case right from the beginning and delayed it as long as possible to turn their list over so a adverse ruling eliminated less players. Players were told they could beat it if they stuck together. The lawyers all won they all got heir fees. The Cronulla players went the other way and they all got to play footy and maintain their careers. Now only 12 players are gone and the Bombers will get somewhat of a competitive team. The club won, the lawyers did even better but the players lost. They will forever have on their records "drug cheat" where the Club will go on and the lawyers will get new clients.

I feel for the players but where was the leadership, there must have been one making a noise that it was wrong, without even knowing what was in the needle, as soon as they went behind the doctor's back someone should have stood up.

my goodness the AFLPA have a very high opinion of themselves. Maybe instead of throwing stones all around the place and demanding fanciful things like going away from the WADA code they should sit back and ask themselves why not one of these players felt comfortable raising this with the AFLPA. I mean after all they are representing the players and are supposed to be a major resource for them.

I almost spat out my drink when they went and mentioned that sports like the NFL, NBA don't sign on to the WADA code and "have their house in order". I wonder if the players they represent would be happy to take a pay cut in that instance. With government money removed for things like junior and grass roots development, contributions to stadiums and facilities etc, the AFL would somehow have to fund this, which would lead to less money at the top level. I doubt they've considered that in their latest round of rants.

Perhaps they would do well to keep in mind that they're not the most important party in this sport. That belongs to the fans, who are the sole reason the sport is where it is today and without whom there is no money at all, either through attendances, tv rights or sponsorship. I know they're there to advocate for players but in recent times they've come across as completely disregarding any other parties involved. Its the same stupid short sighted thinking expressed by those who want to go back to the VFL days (cause that was such a raging success for clubs and players financially).

These people are supposed to be professionals, but they strike me as absolute amateurs who can't see past their own little fiefdoms.

The American leagues have massive problems with this stuff. Paul Marsh made a total fool of himself yesterday. Also, there are plenty of team sports in Olympic competition. Lindsay Tanner is hopelessly out of his depth. The AFL should take over Essendon until they are sorted.