The Bombers ASADA/WADA Saga

[Happy_Neale]

Geez, even if that comes off that is a very small victory.

Their season will be wiped out regardless. It will eliminate the guilty verdict on a technicality only and in the minds of everyone they will still be the team who were found guilty in a CAS trial of doping.

The only real winners will be the lawyers cashing in and possibly Jobe Watson salvaging his Brownlow.

How much is it going to cost to translate the case and all supporting evidence into French too!

Absolutely, the assertion that CAS could not conduct an appeal as a new trial is flimsy at best by the sounds of it. They will still miss most of the season and it will cost them an arm and a leg. I suppose for the insurance companies they are gambling that paying to potentially clear the players might cost them less than the lawsuits they will have to insure against.

Let's not forget that in the unlikely event the appeal is successful the case is then re-heard by CAS! Hello 5 year milestone.

 

[jackess]

Geez, even if that comes off that is a very small victory.

Their season will be wiped out regardless. It will eliminate the guilty verdict on a technicality only and in the minds of everyone they will still be the team who were found guilty in a CAS trial of doping.

The only real winners will be the lawyers cashing in and possibly Jobe Watson salvaging his Brownlow.

How much is it going to cost to translate the case and all supporting evidence into French too!

Wasn't Hird at some fancy French business school? He probably has the time to translate it.

 

[MacMum]

....and the AFL have now deferred the Jobe Watson Brownlow verdict until the result of the appeal by the players is known..

..what a weak lot running our game!

 

[Skoob]

In addition (have been reading up) there appears to have been a change to the WADA code whilst the case was still going which allowed WADA an appeal of the finding and a brand new trial which was different to the old code. I suppose the argument is because the case was still running WADA should not benefit from this change?

This is my understanding also.
The thing is, the change was made before the original process was completed, so at the time of the appeal, it was within the code. It wasn't done retrospectively. The other thing is, how does this affect anything? I could understand if there was a change that made a real difference to what was presented/accepted as evidence or the prescribed punishments, but it makes no difference to the material case at all. It merely allowed it to be re-questioned.
As others have said, a 'not guilty' decision will do nothing for the players in the eyes of the public. It may have legal ramifications for the club though, in the positive. Gee, do you think the club encouraged them to appeal?
Even before the first finding, and as is the case always, "Not guilty" does not = "Innocent". What they are doing now is just paperwork. Arguing for what the record books should say and who owes whom an apology or payout.
It almost doesn't matter to me now, how their appeal goes. By the time it's done, they'll have been dragged through the mud for years, stressed about it, cost them all money and missed games. Even if "not guilty", we've seen them punished. Good luck for their hollow victory.

 

[M Malice]

This is my understanding also.
The thing is, the change was made before the original process was completed, so at the time of the appeal, it was within the code. It wasn't done retrospectively. The other thing is, how does this affect anything? I could understand if there was a change that made a real difference to what was presented/accepted as evidence or the prescribed punishments, but it makes no difference to the material case at all. It merely allowed it to be re-questioned.
As others have said, a 'not guilty' decision will do nothing for the players in the eyes of the public. It may have legal ramifications for the club though, in the positive. Gee, do you think the club encouraged them to appeal?
Even before the first finding, and as is the case always, "Not guilty" does not = "Innocent". What they are doing now is just paperwork. Arguing for what the record books should say and who owes whom an apology or payout.
It almost doesn't matter to me now, how their appeal goes. By the time it's done, they'll have been dragged through the mud for years, stressed about it, cost them all money and missed games. Even if "not guilty", we've seen them punished. Good luck for their hollow victory.

more a point about all legal proceedings, so by extension to this one as well.
to me not guilty must mean innocent, or there would be a few more verdict options open to the courts and one of them would be.
not guilty, but we think you did it, we just couldn't prove it pursuing it in a legal manner.

it is preferable that the guilty go free than one innocent person be convicted, that is why the burden of proof standards must be high and strictly enforced.

 

[Skoob]

more a point about all legal proceedings, so by extension to this one as well.
to me not guilty must mean innocent, or there would be a few more verdict options open to the courts and one of them would be.
not guilty, but we think you did it, we just couldn't prove it pursuing it in a legal manner.

it is preferable that the guilty go free than one innocent person be convicted, that is why the burden of proof standards must be high and strictly enforced.

In terms of conviction, one must be either "Guilty" or "Not guilty". There is no "Innocent" verdict, and that's why the two are not the same. There are cases where a "Not guilty" verdict is reached but the judge may note that they don't believe the person is "innocent". That last line is often mentioned in judgements (perhaps not word for word). "Lucky", is another comment, sometimes passed.

 

[M Malice]

In terms of conviction, one must be either "Guilty" or "Not guilty". There is no "Innocent" verdict, and that's why the two are not the same. There are cases where a "Not guilty" verdict is reached but the judge may note that they don't believe the person is "innocent". That last line is often mentioned in judgements (perhaps not word for word). "Lucky", is another comment, sometimes passed.

maybe this option from the scottish system is needed?
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/not+proven

 

[Skoob]

maybe this option from the scottish system is needed?
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/not+proven

Interesting, but sounds like a minefield. I guess its suitability depends on the conditions of re-visiting or re-trying the case. Changes to double jeopardy means you can now re-try a "not guilty" case in the presence of certain new evidence anyway. I would worry about punishments being allowed for a "Not Proven" verdict.

 

[Tom14]

The other frustrating thing too is that the money Essendon is likely to lose on this will end up being absorbed by the league - the AFL can't let Essendon fall over financially. That means less money to assist smaller clubs who have committed the crime of being in non-AFL states.

 

[Happy_Neale]

This is my understanding also.
The thing is, the change was made before the original process was completed, so at the time of the appeal, it was within the code. It wasn't done retrospectively. The other thing is, how does this affect anything? I could understand if there was a change that made a real difference to what was presented/accepted as evidence or the prescribed punishments, but it makes no difference to the material case at all. It merely allowed it to be re-questioned.
As others have said, a 'not guilty' decision will do nothing for the players in the eyes of the public. It may have legal ramifications for the club though, in the positive. Gee, do you think the club encouraged them to appeal?
Even before the first finding, and as is the case always, "Not guilty" does not = "Innocent". What they are doing now is just paperwork. Arguing for what the record books should say and who owes whom an apology or payout.
It almost doesn't matter to me now, how their appeal goes. By the time it's done, they'll have been dragged through the mud for years, stressed about it, cost them all money and missed games. Even if "not guilty", we've seen them punished. Good luck for their hollow victory.

Yeah really the technicality seems to be the changing of the code...that's it. I've been asking a few questions on the HT board and supposedly the changes to the code were in the pipeline long before the Essendon saga. So seems to change nothing even if the appeal gets up as you said...good luck to them.

 

[Happy_Neale]

On another tangent it is interesting to hear the lack of outrage from outspoken Victorian club presidents in particular. Academies to grow the game? COLA? Priority picks? Try shutting Eddie, Newbold and co up.

But 34 players convicted of doping doesn't rate a mention? Interesting.

 

[Hollow Knight]

....and the AFL have now deferred the Jobe Watson Brownlow verdict until the result of the appeal by the players is known..

..what a weak lot running our game!

I have no problem with that to be honest. The case for him losing his Brownlow is built on a final, guilty verdict of doping. That process has to play out.

 

[matwt73]

re the essendon appeal i am probably part of a very small minority. my opinion is that anyone has the right to follow all legal options that are open to them to the very end. that is the way our legal system is set up. any process followed by prosecuting authorities be they sporting tribunals or courts of law must follow due process and accepted procedures for the gathering and presenting of evidence. the essendon 34 should not have to take into account how this process looks to the general public or the length of time it is taking and the perceived damage to the AFL brand.
the other option is we go by media reports and the court of public opinion.

I don't disagree with any of this. They are entitles to do whatever they want if they have the resources or someone with the resources willing to run it. I do however question the wisdom/ value of it from the point of view of the individual players.

They want to 'clear their names', but the nature of the appeal and the passage of time is such that noone is going to change their view as a result of this. Anyone who thinks they took a banned substance will not have their views changed by the outcome of this appeal. Anyone who thinks they were duped not doped, won't be bothered by a failed appeal. The players reputations are now well established in individual minds (and in history) and that's unlikely to change.

I suspect given this appeal is being funded by insurance companies that that is the real driver.

If this appeal is successful, then there will be no law suits by players, the $200,000.00 spent running this appeal will look like good value against the $10 million in possible pay outs. If the appeal fails, well they've only spent another 200K, which is only a 5% loading and will get sucked up in the reinsurance anyway.

Nb Figures above are pure speculation

 

[ROBurBEAMrKEAYS]

Just out of curiosity do you guys believe the appeal will be successful?

 

[WA Lion]

Just out of curiosity do you guys believe the appeal will be successful?

very VERY rarely are CAS decisions overturned. It has happened, but not often so it is a comprehensive no from me

 

[ROBurBEAMrKEAYS]

very VERY rarely are CAS decisions overturned. It has happened, but not often so it is a comprehensive no from me

I totally agree plus I am at loss to see what technicality they could exploit to have the appeal be successful but hey I am no lawyer!
And hey to WA Lion, I am a fellow west aussie!!!

 

[Happy_Neale]

very VERY rarely are CAS decisions overturned. It has happened, but not often so it is a comprehensive no from me

The appeals process does not overturn the CAS decision in this instance, it forces a re-hearing. From memory the record with successful appeals leading to a successful re-trial is something like 0-8. Don't like the bombers chances one iota.

 

[WA Lion]

The appeals process does not overturn the CAS decision in this instance, it forces a re-hearing. From memory the record with successful appeals leading to a successful re-trial is something like 0-8. Don't like the bombers chances one iota.

There was a Soccer players back in about 2007 (roughly) called Canas or something like that, I remember he was successful but I can't remember anything more about the case and can't be bothered to look it up!

 

[Len S]

The appeals process does not overturn the CAS decision in this instance, it forces a re-hearing. From memory the record with successful appeals leading to a successful re-trial is something like 0-8. Don't like the bombers chances one iota.

I believe you are correct on this, and that CASA can re hear,and adjust the charges to take care of the loopholes.

 

[Football Pope]

The other frustrating thing too is that the money Essendon is likely to lose on this will end up being absorbed by the league - the AFL can't let Essendon fall over financially. That means less money to assist smaller clubs who have committed the crime of being in non-AFL states.

Are you meaning gate receipts?.....My understanding is Chubb insurance are paying for the appeal...but having said that Hird is suing them for non payment .

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/es...t/news-story/a9a14cd98637a104cd9e503f43ecc100

 

[Gadzorks]

On a Dank related issue: Dank is currently in court suing News Corp for articles that reported that the relapse and subsequent death from cancer of Jon Mannah of the Cronulla Sharks was related to the peptide injections he received from Dank under the supplements program in 2011.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/rug...-was-safe-20160216-gmvvep.html?skin=text-only Quote: ‘The jury also heard Dank didn't tell Cronulla team doctor David Givney he was advising players about peptide use or was also organising for players to be to injected.’

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...-in-peptide-program,-dank-tells-court/7174204 Quote: ‘ Mr Dank said Dr Givney (team doctor) was angry about the peptide program when he found out about it.’

From memory (admittedly a poor memory) The Australian yesterday indicated that there is evidence that peptides can bring on a relapse. Also stated that the first supplements program dated back to 2004 at Manly.

Would love to know the truth of what Dank has been doing for the past dozen years – other than leaving behind trail of court dramas, legal bills, destroyed careers and emotionally broken people. Talk about a toxic person. Do you think he has records and is not showing them or he just didn't keep records at all?

Quote: ‘He (Dank) told the court the claims were wrong and were part of a series of articles that caused his once-busy business to flatline and invitations to social functions to dry up.’ Can’t say I feel sorry for him.

 

[Tom14]

Are you meaning gate receipts?.....My understanding is Chubb insurance are paying for the appeal...but having said that Hird is suing them for non payment .

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/es...t/news-story/a9a14cd98637a104cd9e503f43ecc100

Gate receipts is one issue. Essendon just posted a huge loss too from memory. I'd also be very interested to see whether Chubb is funding the entirety of the players latest appeal - it's obviously hard to know without having seen the insurance policy.

 

[Gadzorks]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...n/news-story/c679097c67c8207098bf78953867d6d7

Simple Definition of dank (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dank)

• : wet and cold in a way that is unpleasant

 

[Kojihama]

I thought the players were not allowed access to the club in any official capacity... Yet reading a few articles about their own training they seem to insinuate that the club has provided a program for them to follow...

 

[maroon and blue]

I admire Essendon FC they are a strong culture, and decent to.