Science/Environment The Carbon Debate, pt III

[SaintsSeptember]

http://share.banoosh.com/2012/12/08...ational-carbon-taxes-will-fix-global-economy/



If abbott wins the next election and does stop carbon pricing, forgetting the implications to our budget that will create, how will the rest of the world view us considering we are one of the heaviest contributors on a pound for pound basis?

Those who vote for him over this issue, who do so based on ignorance have themselves to blame for what happens, but what about the rest of us who are not ignorant?

I don't see that your "image" is a huge factor of consideration in it all really.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Nobody outside Australia gives a shit about our pollution.

Do you know how much mercury gets washed downstream in Africa and South America mining for gold?

Hint: It isn't a small amount.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Nobody outside Australia gives a shit about our pollution.

Do you know how much mercury gets washed downstream in Africa and South America mining for gold?

Hint: It isn't a small amount.

Pollution is largely irrelevant to the issue of global warming.
I know the green movement try to tie it all together, anti-nuke , pollution, global warming , save the whales, etc, conserve water, etc.
Mercury may cause birth defects (Minimata ) but is unlikely to affect global warming.

Now "global" warming is in fact global, so its pretty obvious that someone who gives a shit about "global" warming will still give a shit if its outside their own country. In fact, even though CO2 emmissons per capita in Australia are pretty high, many are concerned about the absolute level of emmissions from China.

 

[Papa Juggs]

We're trying to make ourselves feel important.

Making us look like a big polluter helps us get on the world stage and "talk" about these issues.

I say talk but it's more like activism. Nobody cares. Aussies are just environmental crusaders.

We should worry about our own country and here carbon is not a problem.

We're the cheap coal country and if anybody wants to question that they're dead wrong (Joolya, greens, morons, whatever)

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We're trying to make ourselves feel important.

Making us look like a big polluter helps us get on the world stage and "talk" about these issues.

I say talk but it's more like activism. Nobody cares. Aussies are just environmental crusaders.

We should worry about our own country and here carbon is not a problem.

We're the cheap coal country and if anybody wants to question that they're dead wrong (Joolya, greens, morons, whatever)

I have to say I lack confidence in a goverment who "encourage" cars to stay out of the city by increasing the congestion, while at the same time making it a daunting prospect to take my family to the footy on the train. ( used to be able to get a sunday saver or somthing along those lines).

 

[Papa Juggs]

Cheap coal could be powering high speed rail yesterday.

Blame the idiot Victorians that voted for this Mickey Mouse government even after they showed the dodgyness of their faceless men party knifing Rudd.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Cheap coal could be powering high speed rail yesterday.

Blame the idiot Victorians that voted for this Mickey Mouse government even after they showed the dodgyness of their faceless men party knifing Rudd.

I dont think the "other" govenment were on track to do anything different. They did put a roof on a railway station and build a dodgy ferris wheel, and commissioned a desalination plant that seems somewhat overpriced.

 

[Papa Juggs]

It doesn't matter, southerners keep voting ****** greens into the senate.

I don't understand it, they've just ****ed this countries political system until the next election.

 

[blured]

It doesn't matter, southerners keep voting ****** greens into the senate.

I don't understand it, they've just screwed this countries political system until the next election.

And this relates to global warming in some way ?

 

[Papa Juggs]

Yes it does, it's the greens that are forcing crippling economic policy on this country in the name of the environment.

The people wanted to save a few trees, not pay billions in carbon tax.

 

[blured]

Yes it does, it's the greens that are forcing crippling economic policy on this country in the name of the environment.

The people wanted to save a few trees, not pay billions in carbon tax.

If you think the international science is incorrect on global warming, please feel free to tell us how so many scientists are getting it wrong. Otherwise stop turning this thread into a BS political rant about the greens.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Prove the link between carbon and global temperature and I'll be happy to.

 

[Mcveigh]

Prove the link between carbon and global temperature and I'll be happy to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming#Greenhouse_gases



Maybe learn something instead of hating on Joolya/Greens and imagining Tones is going to come along and fix everything?

 

[blured]

quote="Juggalo Balla, post: 26651094, member: 41377"]Prove the link between carbon and global temperature and I'll be happy to.[/quote]

The fundamental physical and chemical processes leading to climate change are well understood, and CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology observations demonstrate that change is occurring now.

Ground, ocean and satellite based observations are giving us highly consistent observations of this warming trend. State of the Climate 2012 confirms that each decade has been warmer than the previous decade since the 1950s, with an increase in the number of warm nights, and more monthly maximum temperature records being broken.

Sea-levels had risen around Australia at rates equal to or greater than the global average, and sea-surface temperatures in the region had increased faster than the global average.

State of the Climate 2012 documents the annual growth in global fossil-fuel CO2 emissions and other greenhouse gases. The CO2 concentration of the atmosphere had risen to around 390 parts per million in 2011, a level unprecedented in the past 800,000 years. During the past decade it has risen at more than 3% per year, which is projected to cause significant further global warming.

Direct quotes from the CSIRO state of the climate 2012. Research from our very own BOM and CSIRO

 

[fishardansin]

Yes but we know that CSIRO and BOM are just part of the Jooliar and Watermelon conspiracy!!!!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yes it does, it's the greens that are forcing crippling economic policy on this country in the name of the environment.

The people wanted to save a few trees, not pay billions in carbon tax.

Personally I think the NBN is doing more towards crippling the economy.

 

[fishardansin]

Personally I think the NBN is doing more towards crippling the economy.

I would think that the Australian economy is doing very very well in a global context. Howard's drunken sailor spending at each election during a time of boom, thanks mainly to Keating's economic reforms and mining boom, has caused some long term damage to our economy. Thank goodness that Costello had some vision with his future fund. This is money that should have been spent on infrastructure. A massive investment on public transport was required during this time as well as the major highway networks to allow goods to be transported around much easier in areas of high population, not to mention people getting around more easily and in a way that can be better for the environment if we use clean forms of electricity.

Our economy isn't crippled but here are a few things to improve it immensly:

1. Institute the mining tax in full

2. Drop income tax to near zero on the first 40k, and then increase the rates at a steeper rate each 30k after that with people paying 70 cents in the dollar for every dollar over 120k, I'd also look at something much higher for those over 250k.

3. Keep the carbon tax, rather than bringing in an ETS down the track. This should be income neutral for the government with 50% spent on rebates to consumer's on a sliding scale due to income. Those that start using green power that avoids the carbon tax still get the rebates. The other 50% is to be given as tax breaks on companies who do R&D on carbon neutral or negative power and given as grants to universities as research grants in this area too.

4. Legalise all drugs and tax them highly, but still leave them a little cheaper than what the black market currently sells them for. Have them quality controlled so that while people may ruin their lives to some extent with addiction they wont be poisoned by harsh chemicals and also encourage people to use them in ways that are less damaging, ie encourage ingesting rather than any sort of smoking or intravenous. At the same time greatly increase the penalties of selling drugs unlicensed including charges like tax avoidance, health regulations and other serious offences so that jail terms for that are closer to 15 or 20 years.

5. Introduce automatic employment for those unemployed to serve the public good. Environment officers would be a great start. Cleaning up urban environments are one idea.

6. Make me dictator for life.

 

[Mani]

I would think that the Australian economy is doing very very well in a global context. Howard's drunken sailor spending at each election during a time of boom, thanks mainly to Keating's economic reforms and mining boom, has caused some long term damage to our economy. Thank goodness that Costello had some vision with his future fund. This is money that should have been spent on infrastructure. A massive investment on public transport was required during this time as well as the major highway networks to allow goods to be transported around much easier in areas of high population, not to mention people getting around more easily and in a way that can be better for the environment if we use clean forms of electricity.

Our economy isn't crippled but here are a few things to improve it immensly:

1. Institute the mining tax in full

2. Drop income tax to near zero on the first 40k, and then increase the rates at a steeper rate each 30k after that with people paying 70 cents in the dollar for every dollar over 120k, I'd also look at something much higher for those over 250k.

3. Keep the carbon tax, rather than bringing in an ETS down the track. This should be income neutral for the government with 50% spent on rebates to consumer's on a sliding scale due to income. Those that start using green power that avoids the carbon tax still get the rebates. The other 50% is to be given as tax breaks on companies who do R&D on carbon neutral or negative power and given as grants to universities as research grants in this area too.

4. Legalise all drugs and tax them highly, but still leave them a little cheaper than what the black market currently sells them for. Have them quality controlled so that while people may ruin their lives to some extent with addiction they wont be poisoned by harsh chemicals and also encourage people to use them in ways that are less damaging, ie encourage ingesting rather than any sort of smoking or intravenous. At the same time greatly increase the penalties of selling drugs unlicensed including charges like tax avoidance, health regulations and other serious offences so that jail terms for that are closer to 15 or 20 years.

5. Introduce automatic employment for those unemployed to serve the public good. Environment officers would be a great start. Cleaning up urban environments are one idea.

6. Make me dictator for life.

Are you aware that of the top 100 corporations about 40% didn't pay any tax at all last year?

You do realise who runs the country don't you?

Incidentally the so called Australian mining industry is 83% foreign owned (about 55% in US corporate hands.) in addition the mining and resource sectors employ about 3% of the Australian workforce.

We must appear like real suckers to our foreign owners

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I would think that the Australian economy is doing very very well in a global context. Howard's drunken sailor spending at each election during a time of boom, thanks mainly to Keating's economic reforms and mining boom, has caused some long term damage to our economy. Thank goodness that Costello had some vision with his future fund. This is money that should have been spent on infrastructure. A massive investment on public transport was required during this time as well as the major highway networks to allow goods to be transported around much easier in areas of high population, not to mention people getting around more easily and in a way that can be better for the environment if we use clean forms of electricity.

Our economy isn't crippled but here are a few things to improve it immensly:

1. Institute the mining tax in full

2. Drop income tax to near zero on the first 40k, and then increase the rates at a steeper rate each 30k after that with people paying 70 cents in the dollar for every dollar over 120k, I'd also look at something much higher for those over 250k.

3. Keep the carbon tax, rather than bringing in an ETS down the track. This should be income neutral for the government with 50% spent on rebates to consumer's on a sliding scale due to income. Those that start using green power that avoids the carbon tax still get the rebates. The other 50% is to be given as tax breaks on companies who do R&D on carbon neutral or negative power and given as grants to universities as research grants in this area too.

4. Legalise all drugs and tax them highly, but still leave them a little cheaper than what the black market currently sells them for. Have them quality controlled so that while people may ruin their lives to some extent with addiction they wont be poisoned by harsh chemicals and also encourage people to use them in ways that are less damaging, ie encourage ingesting rather than any sort of smoking or intravenous. At the same time greatly increase the penalties of selling drugs unlicensed including charges like tax avoidance, health regulations and other serious offences so that jail terms for that are closer to 15 or 20 years.

5. Introduce automatic employment for those unemployed to serve the public good. Environment officers would be a great start. Cleaning up urban environments are one idea.

6. Make me dictator for life.

Wow this is gettting way too political now, but we could talk about the goverment "before" Howard and what was happening to the National Debt despite no infrastructure. No one ( Government ) is building infrastructure except this stupid broad band.
Now we have the Gillard goverment desperately pulling the budget out of everything so she can try to get a surplus. ( Which will blow out as soon as there is an election and the gov dept's are allowed to restock their stationary ).

I agree with point 6 though. Your policy's are OK and the condition you attached would mean you would be hoping for a long term.

 

[Papa Juggs]

800 000years? That's laughable really. The Earth has been around with trees and wildlife much longer than that.

If it could handle that carbon before it can do so again.

Please accept this home truth and do with it what you will.

CARBON DIOXIDE IS A NATURAL FERTILIZER.

I propose this question.

Do you believe the Earth will cool itself naturally without human intervention?

You can answer no if you like. I can't prove either way.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Are you aware that of the top 100 corporations about 40% didn't pay any tax at all last year?

You do realise who runs the country don't you?

Incidentally the so called Australian mining industry is 83% foreign owned (about 55% in US corporate hands.) in addition the mining and resource sectors employ about 3% of the Australian workforce.

We must appear like real suckers to our foreign owners

Unfortunately "most" big corporations can't be screwed over, because If you try they'll go somewhere else. ( Unless we want to reintroduce local industry protection).
While we have minerals in the ground you'd think there is something in not simply "giving it away" though.
Personally I'd like to see a tax more geared towards upstream processing in Australia ( better for the environment too ).

 

[Upton Sinclair]

800 000years? That's laughable really. The Earth has been around with trees and wildlife much longer than that.

If it could handle that carbon before it can do so again.

Please accept this home truth and do with it what you will.

CARBON DIOXIDE IS A NATURAL FERTILIZER.

I propose this question.

Do you believe the Earth will cool itself naturally without human intervention?

You can answer no if you like. I can't prove either way.

Sigh...

It was hotter when the dinosaurs around, it was also exceptionally unsuitable for human habitation too. It's not about the Earth, the Earth will live and prosper for billions of years to come. It's about humans, here and now, and whether we want to live in a world that is markedly different to the one our civilisation evolved in.

 

[Mani]

800 000years? That's laughable really. The Earth has been around with trees and wildlife much longer than that.

If it could handle that carbon before it can do so again.

Please accept this home truth and do with it what you will.

CARBON DIOXIDE IS A NATURAL FERTILIZER.

I propose this question.

Do you believe the Earth will cool itself naturally without human intervention?

You can answer no if you like. I can't prove either way.

Lol

Copper and magnesium are also natural trace elements that plants need to grow and thrive. If you make up a solution of high comcentration copper for example what you have is a herbicide.

You need to educate yourself about the basics of science before you gallop in here with your fossil fuel spin and embarrass yourself

 

[blured]

800 000years? That's laughable really. The Earth has been around with trees and wildlife much longer than that.

If it could handle that carbon before it can do so again.

Please accept this home truth and do with it what you will.

CARBON DIOXIDE IS A NATURAL FERTILIZER.

I propose this question.

Do you believe the Earth will cool itself naturally without human intervention?

You can answer no if you like. I can't prove either way.

I see basic science is obviously to complicated for you to grasp.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Ok Mr 100 posts. I bow to you