Analysis The cultural implications of 'tanking'

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xtatik222k

Club Legend
May 24, 2008
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australia
AFL Club
Geelong
Hi all,

I just wanted to have a discussion about the practise of tanking and the long-term impacts that it might have on clubs who indulge it.
Given the recent history of Carlton / Melbourne, I think it deserves conversation and analysis - and more than just the usual take, which essentially boils down to "It's bad because it compromises the integrity of the competition."
The above is true, obviously, but I think tanking has a far-greater implication on those who partake, and we're seeing it manifest in the longterm cultural institutions in Carlton and Melbourne.
Imagine being an AFL player. You've been the best player in every league you've played in. You were the best player in your local leagues, you were the best player in school divisions, you were the best player at state level, and now you've been granted passage into the highest level possible - to take part in the pantheon of players like Ablett, Lockett, Matthews, Silvagni, Carey etc. Not only have you always been one of the best, but you've also been one of the most motivated. You don't become an AFL player unless it's most of your life, and those who don't make it their one call in life usually don't stay on the top of the mountain for very long.
Now imagine the combination of those two factors - the sheer talent and excellence, partnered with a level of intent very rarely seen in society. Then you get drafted into a club like Carlton, and you become part of an institution that throws games deliberately. You see players being rested when there's nothing wrong with them. You see fitness levels not being maximised because winning isn't a goal. You see coaches making tactical decisions that everyone in the playing group knows is wrong. You see mediocrity everywhere you look - sanctioned mediocrity. You see the one single point of every game you've played in being cast aside and supplanted by another intention: Losing. And what does that breed, in the long term?
Carlton fans have spent the last decade finding out. Cultural toxicity. Lack of discipline. Failure to adhere to guidelines and team ethos. Lack of spine, endeavour, heart and soul. You have to win at all costs, and if you're not winning, you have to do everything to try.
Tanking is a tactic that only the stupidest, most short-sighted people in footy would employ. Hutchy floated the idea on Footy Classified the other night and I was aghast. Losing games goes against the grain of every players' natural will. It has no place in the game. It destroys clubs for decades.

Thoughts?
 
Hi all,

I just wanted to have a discussion about the practise of tanking and the long-term impacts that it might have on clubs who indulge it.
Given the recent history of Carlton / Melbourne, I think it deserves conversation and analysis - and more than just the usual take, which essentially boils down to "It's bad because it compromises the integrity of the competition."
The above is true, obviously, but I think tanking has a far-greater implication on those who partake, and we're seeing it manifest in the longterm cultural institutions in Carlton and Melbourne.
Imagine being an AFL player. You've been the best player in every league you've played in. You were the best player in your local leagues, you were the best player in school divisions, you were the best player at state level, and now you've been granted passage into the highest level possible - to take part in the pantheon of players like Ablett, Lockett, Matthews, Silvagni, Carey etc. Not only have you always been one of the best, but you've also been one of the most motivated. You don't become an AFL player unless it's most of your life, and those who don't make it their one call in life usually don't stay on the top of the mountain for very long.
Now imagine the combination of those two factors - the sheer talent and excellence, partnered with a level of intent very rarely seen in society. Then you get drafted into a club like Carlton, and you become part of an institution that throws games deliberately. You see players being rested when there's nothing wrong with them. You see fitness levels not being maximised because winning isn't a goal. You see coaches making tactical decisions that everyone in the playing group knows is wrong. You see mediocrity everywhere you look - sanctioned mediocrity. You see the one single point of every game you've played in being cast aside and supplanted by another intention: Losing. And what does that breed, in the long term?
Carlton fans have spent the last decade finding out. Cultural toxicity. Lack of discipline. Failure to adhere to guidelines and team ethos. Lack of spine, endeavour, heart and soul. You have to win at all costs, and if you're not winning, you have to do everything to try.
Tanking is a tactic that only the stupidest, most short-sighted people in footy would employ. Hutchy floated the idea on Footy Classified the other night and I was aghast. Losing games goes against the grain of every players' natural will. It has no place in the game. It destroys clubs for decades.

Thoughts?
Spot on.
Tanking is a greed thing.
It's a short cut.
Carlton has always been about doing it the easy way.
Melbourne has recently had that same mindset.
Long may they wallow.
 

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Tanking is a tactual plan to win long term. Its losing the battle to win the war.. so at times any decision that may see to be in the best immediate results could be accused of tanking...some of which may really just be normal and within the realms expected pain. Tanking is not match fixing. Its tanking points on return of serve to save energy to win your own serve .. or one a break down tanking the set to again try to save energy.
The question is.. does tanking work in the afl? Does finishing near bottom mean that a team tanked.One might say that finishing mid table is almost doing worst by your club than taking a step back to bounce forward.

Id say clubs like geelong and other have influenced the mythology about tanking. The reward is not beneficial enough in comparison to other approaches. I could only imagine the disruption it would cause when you draft the right type of players but they have to play handicaped while a club continues slurp at the draft pick trough. How well would Joel Selwood have played etc.

Its just too hard to move from a one of the mediocre many ..over to an asperation place of destination to mess with deliberate losses. No evidence that it works because draft picks alone does not lift a club up the ladder.
 
Tanking is a tactual plan to win long term. Its losing the battle to win the war.. so at times any decision that may see to be in the best immediate results could be accused of tanking...some of which may really just be normal and within the realms expected pain. Tanking is not match fixing. Its tanking points on return of serve to save energy to win your own serve .. or one a break down tanking the set to again try to save energy.
The question is.. does tanking work in the afl? Does finishing near bottom mean that a team tanked.One might say that finishing mid table is almost doing worst by your club than taking a step back to bounce forward.

Id say clubs like geelong and other have influenced the mythology about tanking. The reward is not beneficial enough in comparison to other approaches. I could only imagine the disruption it would cause when you draft the right type of players but they have to play handicaped while a club continues slurp at the draft pick trough. How well would Joel Selwood have played etc.

Its just too hard to move from a one of the mediocre many ..over to an asperation place of destination to mess with deliberate losses. No evidence that it works because draft picks alone does not lift a club up the ladder.
Saving energy to win a serve isn't really the same as deliberately fixing an AFL game.
And when you choose not to win, that is what it is. Fixing.
With all the moral, and potentially legal, implications.
 
Saving energy to win a serve isn't really the same as deliberately fixing an AFL game.
And when you choose not to win, that is what it is. Fixing.
With all the moral, and potentially legal, implications.

Its why Im saying the tanking term is not a totally correct translation. Not doing everything you can to win.. is very broad idealism. No club that manages players could say they are choice not to select their best22. Once the players are in the side.. at waht point is it development and what point is it detrimental to todays result but for long term benefit.
Not doing enough to win can be detrimental in afl.. and the gains can be questionable.The picks you gain can cost the club in revenue.. and picks are not players.
 
The thing I don't get about tanking - it's for the coveted draft pick bonanza, right? But if you don't have the development staff to train up these picks and turn them from mere potential into elite sportsmen isn't it just wasted effort?

Why even bother if your team isn't improving?

In the afl system the benfit has to be questioned. No clubs could have as many picks as Gold Coast and GWS.. if they dont win.. no clubs should ever debate the merits of under performance.
 
Its why Im saying the tanking term is not a totally correct translation. Not doing everything you can to win.. is very broad idealism. No club that manages players could say they are choice not to select their best22. Once the players are in the side.. at waht point is it development and what point is it detrimental to todays result but for long term benefit.
Not doing enough to win can be detrimental in afl.. and the gains can be questionable.The picks you gain can cost the club in revenue.. and picks are not players.
So in reality, calling it tanking "softens" the offense.
We should call it what it is...match fixing.
 

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So in reality, calling it tanking "softens" the offense.
We should call it what it is...match fixing.

If there is any evidence that there is definitive matches fixed then that elevates it a whole other level. A FF that kicks 0.5 for the day etc.. still might not be enough. If you were an indian bookmaker now ..I doubt its wins and losses that is the most likely to be bet on. A FF that misses 5 shots in a row is the most likely event.The comp setup is nothing really like the Blacksox situation...

In a broad sence If one agrees that draft picks are remuneration to use or purchase players... then one could almost say thet the afl are encoraging clubs to have losing seasons. In a work enviorment.. if you paid the worst worker the most ... wouldn't it encourage workers to try to be the worst.
 
So in reality, calling it tanking "softens" the offense.
We should call it what it is...match fixing.

I might be wrong here, but I always understood match-fixing to be specific to betting/gambling. Throwing matches against an opponent with higher odds to make a financial windfall, that sort of thing.
 
I might be wrong here, but I always understood match-fixing to be specific to betting/gambling. Throwing matches against an opponent with higher odds to make a financial windfall, that sort of thing.
Yes, that's the point.
There is big money placed on all aspects of a football game.
Then along comes a coach under instructions from above.
He picks a handful of younger players (for "development" reasons), plays such and such out of position (for "teaching" purposes), and puts a loose man in the forward line instead of defence.
How do you feel as punter when they then go on to lose against a weaker opponent?
 
If there is any evidence that there is definitive matches fixed then that elevates it a whole other level. A FF that kicks 0.5 for the day etc.. still might not be enough. If you were an indian bookmaker now ..I doubt its wins and losses that is the most likely to be bet on. A FF that misses 5 shots in a row is the most likely event.The comp setup is nothing really like the Blacksox situation...

In a broad sence If one agrees that draft picks are remuneration to use or purchase players... then one could almost say thet the afl are encoraging clubs to have losing seasons. In a work enviorment.. if you paid the worst worker the most ... wouldn't it encourage workers to try to be the worst.
They are encouraging it. Whch is why they turn a blind eye.
In the Premier League, finish on the bottom and it's bye-bye, maybe for decades.
Here, finish on the bottom, take your pick of the best available talent.
And yet nobody sees anything wrong?
 
They are encouraging it. Whch is why they turn a blind eye.
In the Premier League, finish on the bottom and it's bye-bye, maybe for decades.
Here, finish on the bottom, take your pick of the best available talent.
And yet nobody sees anything wrong?

You can not comp all comps with each other PremierL is part of a world wide market for players .. American Football , Basketball both have drafts so its not unique to us.
 
I feel like teams underestimate the effect of dumping their experienced players in order to gift games to the kids and gain a couple of extra picks. Carlton have spent a decade trading out best 22 talent for frivolus reasons leaving few to left to hand over he culture to the next generaton. Melbourne had that problem and north might be slipping into that trap as well. Beyond Varcoe and Caddy we haven't willingly parted with many.
 
...and if you do tank, just don't have S.Silvagni as your list manager. He may have another **** progeny to add to your list.
Are there any more SOSSSS' running around?!?!

I luv seeing the Blues burn.
Feel bad for the kids there but the club and FO itself.... burn!!!

Go Catters
 
I've played team sports at a decently high level, and for a long time at various levels. I can't conceive of giving a single game up regardless of the long view, as a player. I just cannot accept, to myself, doing it. I can lay traps tactically with a future payoff, but never give up a win.
So I can see if any of the players on those teams knew or surmised that they were tanking, they would be mind-effed by it. They are at a level of incredible competitiveness with other clubs and teammates. It is a self-inflicted crack of weakness that will wreck a culture.
when a club does it, it is an acknowledgement that the suits are in charge and that cancer will be hard to exorcise.
 
Are there any more SOSSSS' running around?!?!

I luv seeing the Blues burn.
Feel bad for the kids there but the club and FO itself.... burn!!!

Go Catters

There was one running around in their VFL side on Sunday.
 

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Analysis The cultural implications of 'tanking'

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