Oppo Camp The Hawthorn Racism Report

[Goroyals22]

CNN

You were going so well until then

 

[Moose1414]

Fall off your chairs all you want, anyone want to actually make an argument that its racist to have a conversation with a teenage player with suicidal tendencies who's looking to start a family with a partner he's so committed to that he'd actually let the club lead him down a path of cutting communication with that person? Easy to label every person and situation as not being good enough and evidence of fault when you're not willing to actually have the hard conversations.

From the outside I fall on the side of thinking that family is more important that footy and if Hawthorn find itself in a position where they find out player #2 in this story has all these issues you just basically should go "look, you're not going to make it. But, we drafted you and we'll do all we can for the next 2 years until your delisted to prepare you as best we can to the the kind of father, partner and role model you want to be." In the absence of detail or hearing the other side of the story though, who's to say that conversation didn't occur or whether the circumstances indicated a different cause of action.

 

[GlennTwenty]

Yeah, I *ed up

I had originally drafted it to say he denied them then reread the statement to make sure he did and completely skipped the paragraph where he denied them

So I took it out

Call it a seniors moment

Is he denying that the events occurred as reported or is he saying they don't amount to misconduct? Surely not the later but his statement seems vague on that point

 

[Ochre]

You can't fault the endeavour I guess?

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

Question for the board .

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 15 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes ?

 

[Moose1414]

Question for the board .

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 15 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes ?

I think the way that works is they would be "racist assholes"

 

[Ochre]

Question for the board .

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 15 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes ?

Assholes

Question for you two

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 3 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes?

 

[BrotherDodge]

The issue being that people are unconsciously reinforcing an idea that black athletes’ success is because they were lucky to be born with some sort of freakish physical ability, and minimises the hard work and drive they might have.

Or something like that.

And there's also the weird flip side to that, where any Aboriginal player who's out of form is apparently just being lazy.

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

Assholes

Question for you two

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 3 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes?

That would clearly be racist how could it not be .
Also very disturbing

 

[bzparkes]

Assholes

Question for you two

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 3 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes?

Depends.

Did they have those conversations because they were indigenous, or was it just happenstance that 3 indigenous player simply happened to be in similar situations at the same time?

For the record, I don't believe those conversations are appropriate for anyone, before anyone decides to jump on their soapbox.

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Fall off your chairs all you want, anyone want to actually make an argument that its racist to have a conversation with a teenage player with suicidal tendencies who's looking to start a family with a partner he's so committed to that he'd actually let the club lead him down a path of cutting communication with that person? Easy to label every person and situation as not being good enough and evidence of fault when you're not willing to actually have the hard conversations.

From the outside I fall on the side of thinking that family is more important that footy and if Hawthorn find itself in a position where they find out player #2 in this story has all these issues you just basically should go "look, you're not going to make it. But, we drafted you and we'll do all we can for the next 2 years until your delisted to prepare you as best we can to the the kind of father, partner and role model you want to be." In the absence of detail or hearing the other side of the story though, who's to say that conversation didn't occur or whether the circumstances indicated a different cause of action.

It's racist if these behaviours are perpetuated specifically towards indigenous players because of a prejudice towards their ability to deal with girlfriends, fatherhood, etc as compared to everyone else.

If Clarko and Fagan were giving this type of advice to non-indigenous players, you could argue they're just arseholes and sociopaths. But we don't have that evidence/testimony.

EDIT: took me to long to reply. On point with Ochre.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Even if the alleged act itself isn’t racist (if you want to die on that hill), the lack of cultural sensitivity and understanding certainly makes it so.

I wonder why people from that background would be particularly affected by being asked to give up their offspring and connections to family. Any ideas?

 

[Moose1414]

Assholes

Question for you two

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 3 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes?

They might be both. Would depend I guess on two things:

1. Whether they diid or didn't draft any non-indigenous players in the same situation.

2. Whether in fact there is a one system fits all player welfare system, or whether different levels of support are given to players depending on their race.

You know for a fact that clubs treat players differently depending on their race, as a proactive measure due to an inequality of outcomes in the broader community. So the situation you propose is unlikely to have been the case. If we were to bring this closer to home and look at the West Coast system, conceivably the situation would occur in which the club is inserting itself into the personal lives of indigenous players while similar or identical situations may be occurring in the lives of its young non indigenous players without them being aware. Its not apples to apples, and the reason for that is the opposite of clubs wanting to racially discriminate against their indigenous players- it is, broadly speaking, to provide a safety net for players they view as the most likely to fail out [for want of a better term] of their system.

It is very easy for an indigenous player who does still fail out of the system to then turn around and say I was treaded differently, look at how the club inserted itself into my personal life. I agree that if the club is inserting itself into the lives of indigenous players to a different degree than they do non-indigenous players then that is by definition racism. A kind of racism that also would be near universally supported, championed, and expected when the opposite outcome results ie Liam Ryan not writing his car off on a Wednesday night after drinking half a carton because the club has provided him with a chaperone to drive him instead. [Not picking on Ryan, just a literal example of the kind of thing these support officers do based on what I've been told by those familiar with that role before we cut it during covid.] You can't have it both ways.

I've already said in both my posts I lean toward thinking that in this case a line has been crossed and that my personal view is its more important in the case of a club taking on players who turn out to have significant mental health issues [which is what the ABC article indicated was the case for player #2] that the focus should be on putting that player in the best position they can when the inevitable happens and they delist them after 2 years. it is very hard to know that Clarko is a racist arseh*le or not a racist arseh*le just because he got involved in the personal live of one of his indigenous players. It actually could go either way. Hopefully Clarkson provides more information and addresses the allegations directly.

Being called names by the likes of the mentally unwell on this board for not falling in line with the ordained opinion is par for the course though I guess.

 

[Bacchus]

CNN

They don’t know Australia exists do they?

Let alone anything going on here, and the underlying stories.

 

[Ochre]

 

[FKASC]

And there's also the weird flip side to that, where any Aboriginal player who's out of form is apparently just being lazy.

Nah laconic

 

[Moose1414]

View attachment 1514533

Good for you. Thanks for brining it to my attention that after all the covid threads there were still some people left with opinions I don't care about who aren't on my ignore list. You won't have to worry about me taking the time to reply to questions you ask me to reply to in future. Congratulations for doing your part the end systemic racism today, may we all live in a better future because of the insights you have provided.

 

[Ochre]

Congratulations for doing your part the end systemic racism today,

Thanks mate

 

[HoneyBadger35]

If your take on this issue is “we need to explore if it’s technically racist”, give yourself an uppercut and wade over to one of the deadshit threads for deadshits.

 

[Barrybran]

Question for the board .

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 15 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes ?

The issue would be more about a power imbalance than racism

 

[dinnaz]

Are the players in question
1.
2. Mark Williams
3. Dayle Gartlett

 

[Barrybran]

Even if the alleged act itself isn’t racist (if you want to die on that hill), the lack of cultural sensitivity and understanding certainly makes it so.

I wonder why people from that background would be particularly affected by being asked to give up their offspring and connections to family. Any ideas?

I don't think it is fair to lump cultural insensitivity in with racism. I've said in the thread on the main board that the more that is said the more I think it is likely that the coaches were trying to "help" these players. As daddy_4_eyes said, if they were doing this just for the Indigenous kids then yeah, racism all the way. But if they were doing this for all of their kids and only really messed up with these three, that's more a lack of understanding than actual racist behaviour. I think it is important to get to the bottom of the "why" so Hawthorn, the AFL and other clubs can better deal with the "how" rather than potentially mislabelling behaviour and taking a cookie cutter approach to multiple situations in the future.

 

[Moose1414]

Nah that’s not quite right.

The claim is that the media are more likely to use descriptions like ‘freakish’ ‘mercurial talent’ or ‘magical’ to describe indigenous or black athletes. And are more likely to attribute things like hard work, determination, strategy etc to white athletes.

The issue being that people are unconsciously reinforcing an idea that black athletes’ success is because they were lucky to be born with some sort of freakish physical ability, and minimises the hard work and drive they might have.

Or something like that.

I think I've posted something about this before, I agree that its a weird kind of stereotyping of indigenous players that just never gets called out because its perceived as complimentary and positive commentary. It is definitely [to use the popular term from academic circles] a form of otherising.

otherize
/ˈʌðərʌɪz/

verb
gerund or present participle: otherising

1. view or treat (a person or group of people) as intrinsically different from and alien to oneself.
   "referring to them in these terms strips them of their identity and otherizes them as foreigners"

Indigenous players and more broadly indigenous people are as a group deemed by white media to have a list of attributes [often associated with whats known as magic realism, or superhuman abilities] that set them apart for being of a different world. Magic, extra sensory, imbued with talents different to others and tied entirely to their race. Its super racist but certain kinds of white folk absolutely lap it up, basically a modern reemergence of the idea of the "noble savage" from victorian times that people lack the self awareness to realise they are perpetuating.

 

[Schtinker]

Question for the board .

Say the allegations are true but they had these same conversations with 15 young players over the years and 3 were indigenous.

Would they be racist or just assholes ?

Should any coach have that type of conversation with any young player?

 

[HoneyBadger35]

People lack the self awareness to realise they are perpetuating (racism).