Current Trial The Murder of 9yo Charlise Mutten - Blue Mountains * Justin Stein Found Guilty

[BFew]

Maybe her carers that day had long or short COVID brain fog.

There's a possbility the mother had covid and that's why Charlise was taken to Wildenstein. About a week in hospital where the cops couldn't approach her, fits with the isolation period.

9 days ago, I tried to make a point of the possibility that one or more of those involved in this sad case might have been affected by COVID infections in some way, in trying to make sense of the facts and media reporting to hand at that point.

This post was not made as a result of any info I had, or had seen from anyone about this possibility
I'm none the wiser about this possibility 9 days later.

 

[Black Hawk]

Timeline of what we know and can gather about the movements of the accused 13th-14th Jan

13th Jan

Approx. 4pm (possibly when nosy neighbours are out) - Accused leaves Wildenstein in his red Holden Colorado ute with boat attached and Charlise's body in a plastic barrel covered with a blue tarpaulin in the back of the ute.

5:30pm - Accused arrives at Bunnings Marsden Park and purchases 5x20kg bags of sand (calls KM while at Bunnings possibly attempting to placate her concerns about Charlise)

5:50pm - Leaves Bunnings Marsden Park

5:53pm - Arrives at BP truck stop Marsden Park Richmond Rd

7:19pm - Victoria Rd Drummoyne

7:20 - 9:50pm Five docks boat ramp Drummoyne (maybe this is when he put the sand in the barrel as he spent a lot of time there)

Big time gap here that the police are trying to fill. Should only take 1 hour to drive direct to Windsor from Five Docks. Where did he go for 2.5 hours?


14th Jan

1:30am - 1:40am Windsor boat ramp Livingston St Windsor

2:25am - 2:30am - Colo River Putty Road

2:37am - 2:46am Lower Colo Road - dumps Charlise

Drives to Wildenstein 1h 10mins

3:56am - Arrives at Wildenstein (estimated time accused not seen arriving)

Detaches boat and cleans up tarp etc... (During this time it's likely his neighbour awakens and starts to read her book)

4:30am - Accused is seen by neighbour leaving Wildenstein without headlights on (very suspicious especially given it's been reported the Steins have a tendency to come and go at all times of the night)

8:20am - Charlise reported missing by KM

 

[jason_recliner]

7:20 - 9:50pm Five docks boat ramp Drummoyne (maybe this is when he put the sand in the barrel as he spent a lot of time there)

At this stage he still needed to move the barrel around a bit, so I don't think he had put the sand in yet. He might have put the sand in at Colo, after getting the barrel down from the ute. Then he realised how heavy it was and he couldn't get it to the river.

 

[2006_Eagles]

At this stage he still needed to move the barrel around a bit, so I don't think he had put the sand in yet. He might have put the sand in at Colo, after getting the barrel down from the ute. Then he realised how heavy it was and he couldn't get it to the river.

What I don't get is how he couldn't roll a barrel into the water from the dock?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

The timeline's messy because the press have let us down imo and they've done a job on the mother. They failed at basic research and misinterpreted what the police said at the presser (mis) leading readers to believe that Kallista was ringing Justin to discuss buying sandbags and fuel for the boat to dump her daughter's body.

They might try to switch the narrative now.

At this stage, Kallista is officially a victim of crime and potentially, the most important witness for the DPP in their prosecution of Stein. They will protect her.

In other words the press are doing what the press always does . Just keep in mind that they do this with most other issues too, starting with politics. Most people fall for it, most of the time. But we won’t go there .

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

What I don't get is how he couldn't roll a barrel into the water from the dock?

Give it a go, see what you think. Don’t forget to put a body in there too

 

[Lady O]

Give it a go, see what you think. Don’t forget to put a body in there too

Barrels are made to roll. That's why I couldn't quite understand why he tried to tow it

 

[BFew]

Barrels are made to roll.

Like these ones with liquids in them, that help them roll?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Barrels are made to roll. That's why I couldn't quite understand why he tried to tow it

Was that it in the back of the ute, covered with the blue tarp? It was upright if so. Would have had to be upright to put the child's body in it. Eventually he must have rolled it out of the ute to dump it in the bush, when he couldn't lift it into the boat. Time was of the essence, he would have been panicking, wondering what to do next.

 

[Awakening]

There's a number of possibilities as to why JS & CM went to Wilderstein and left KM at the caravan park.

He might have told her that his mum was going to be there or some other person that KM trusted, they might have been planning or rehearsing some part of the wedding that was going to be a surprise for KM, maybe KM was unwell, CM might have started getting bored at the caravan park and JS offered to take her to Wildenstein. Any number of scenarios.

KM was going to marry JS and have his child, so presumably he would have had time alone with his own child in the future. If she couldn't trust him with C, then how could she ever leave their baby alone with him?

Supposedly CM had arrived on 21 December and if she was anything like my 2, she was probably bonded to JS after one or 2 nights let alone 2 weeks. Kids are funny like that, they can form strong connections very quickly especially on holidays.

None of us know why she let the 2 of them go off alone together and why she had no contact via phone but there might be an explanation.

There's lots of possibilities and maybe the explanation wouldn't be satisfactory to some of us, but we all parent differently.

Some people tell me I'm too easy on my kids, some say I'm too harsh. We all do things differently.

There may have been an element of denial going on. Maybe she did feel uneasy but so desperately wanted to believe he was a good man and she pushed those feelings aside.

Even if it turns out she made a bad decision, having your child murdered is the harshest punishment for that bad decision. No one deserves that.

Across all social media it seems the sentiment is that the "neglectful" mother is worse than the child murderer. Which is interesting that society thinks that way.

I understand the suspicions people have though, because I share them. That may prove to be very unfair of me. It comes from the limited information we have and reports in MSM that implied she had phone conversations about sandbags and that she told police she saw CM on the veranda on Thursday. But that could be misreported. I'm really starting to think she might be a victim in this.

 

[Lady O]

Was that it in the back of the ute, covered with the blue tarp? It was upright if so. Would have had to be upright to put the child's body in it. Eventually he must have rolled it out of the ute to dump it in the bush, when he couldn't lift it into the boat. Time was of the essence, he would have been panicking, wondering what to do next.

I'm betting he didn't think it through. Putting the sand in the barrel before he got it into the water was his first mistake. I wonder how he thought he could get the barrel with 100kg of sand in it out of the boat? He must be a total f*wit.

 

[Awakening]

I'm betting he didn't think it through. Putting the sand in the barrel before he got it into the water was his first mistake. I wonder how he thought he could get the barrel with 100kg of sand in it out of the boat? He must be a total f*wit.

He was clearly desperate to make sure the body wasn't found.

 

[Kurve]

Here, a video of the police presser stating that Justin was buying sand and fuel for the boat and the section just preceding that where the cops mention phone calls between the two and which the press may have misinterpreted, has been cut out.

Charlise Mutten's mother believed what her fiance, now accused killer, told her about the whereabouts of her daughter before she suspected something was wrong.

Kallista Mutten reportedly gave a statement to detectives last week saying she spoke with Justin Stein on January 13 - the day he allegedly stuffed the nine-year-old's body inside a plastic barrel and drove around Sydney before dumping it by the Colo River in the Blue Mountains.

Ms Mutten said Stein explained why Charlise was not on the 31-year-old's family's sprawling Mt Wilson property after she left her in his care only days earlier while she was staying at a caravan park 80 kilometres away.

What Charlise's mother was told by accused killer after daughter vanished

Charlise Mutten's mother believed what her fiance, now accused killer, told her about the whereabouts of her daughter before she suspected something was wrong.

www.skynews.com.au

 

[craffles]

footscray1973 my post wasn't intended to stop you from hypothesizing etc just merely taking a look at it from another lens that we need to very much consider.

Keep posting mate, most of us on here are a friendly bunch

 

[Lady O]

I'm pretty sure I didn't dream about reading that there were text messages regarding the sand and boat fuel between the two, around the time he was arrested.

 

[Kurve]

.

I'm pretty sure I didn't dream about reading that there were text messages regarding the sand and boat fuel between the two, around the time he was arrested.

Only phone calls between the two that I've seen anyway, not text messages but if there was and the police could in any way interpret them that Kallista was aware and involved, she'd have been arrested imo.

 

[Lady O]

.


Only phone calls between the two that I've seen anyway, not text messages but if there was and the police could in any way interpret them that Kallista was aware and involved, she'd have been arrested imo.

Yeah, I don't know. I just wonder if it WAS a phone conversation rather than a text, how did the cops know about the discussion about sand and fuel for the boat? KM had not spoken to them at that stage. Why would JS incriminate himself by telling them?

 

[Awakening]

Yeah, I don't know. I just wonder if it WAS a phone conversation rather than a text, how did the cops know about the discussion about sand and fuel for the boat? KM had not spoken to them at that stage. Why would JS incriminate himself by telling them?

This is the confusion.

Police did NOT say what their conversations were about.

What police said was that while JS was getting sandbags and fuel, there was phone conversations happening between JS & CM.

What they were talking about in those conversations we don't actually know. It could of been KM asking JS where he was and when was he bringing CM back.

But the way the media reported it, made it sound like they were discussing sandbags and fuel. But we do not know the content of those phone conversations. Only that phone calls between the two were happening at the time JS was getting sandbags and fuel.

In my opinion, the police and media were being deliberately ambiguous.

No doubt they will be looking at KM closely, and wanted to see how she reacted if she thought police somehow knew the content of those phone conversations.

Police will treat KM like a suspect because they will treat anyone in that inner circle as a suspect - partner, mother, mate - until they can be 100% certain no one else was involved.

They also want to make sure they can counter any defence lawyers claims that JS must of had help.

Police will need to rule her out. And it's looking more and more likely that she will be ruled out as police are saying JS acted alone, that KM is not a POI she's a witness, that her statements to police have been consistent etc.

Edited to add: CCTV places JS at Bunnings getting sandbags and fuel so police have the times for that. Then they have JS & KM's phone records that show at around the same time he's on CCTV there are phone conversations between those two. I don't think even the police know what they were discussing.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

The timeline's messy because the press have let us down imo and they've done a job on the mother. They failed at basic research and misinterpreted what the police said at the presser (mis) leading readers to believe that Kallista was ringing Justin to discuss buying sandbags and fuel for the boat to dump her daughter's body.

They might try to switch the narrative now.

At this stage, Kallista is officially a victim of crime and potentially, the most important witness for the DPP in their prosecution of Stein. They will protect her.

At this stage but a lot can change between now and the trial. The reality is at this stage even the police dont know for sure what her full involvement was until they fully investigate and that wont happen until closer to the trial.

 

[Raisedeyebrow]

There's a possbility the mother had covid and that's why Charlise was taken to Wildenstein. About a week in hospital where the cops couldn't approach her, fits with the isolation period.

Exactly the thought that occurred to me last night

 

[Kurve]

At this stage but a lot can change between now and the trial. The reality is at this stage even the police dont know for sure what her full involvement was until they fully investigate and that wont happen until closer to the trial.

Would we still be thinking the police might find she was involved, even after they've said she wasn't there and her statements are consistent, if we didn't know of her history?

Genuine question.

 

[footscray1973]

footscray1973 my post wasn't intended to stop you from hypothesizing etc just merely taking a look at it from another lens that we need to very much consider.

Keep posting mate, most of us on here are a friendly bunch

No, no, I didn't take it that way, so all good from my end. And the covid angle is a valid one.

I think I was getting a bit too hung up on KM being involved. As I said earlier, I'd be very happy to be wrong, I'm just not convinced as yet. Some of the muddled reporting, particularly regarding timelines, which others have now tried to clarify on here, contributed to that. And some police pressers haven't helped.

I've still got an open mind, maybe tainted by KM's recent history - she hasn't got a record of great choices.

 

[footscray1973]

What seems to be beyond doubt is that JS is solely responsible for CM's death. If death was accidental, I imagine most (some?) people would be consumed by guilt and grief but have the moral courage to explain the circumstances to a mother and police. With his narcotic criminal history, did JS kill her accidentally and panic, assuming everyone would assume premeditation, and dig a deeper hole with his subsequent actions trying to dispose of the body, did he over-react only intending to scare CM, or did he just deliberately shoot her?
Was she shot from the front or the back, was he (under some influence) showing her how to use a gun, unfamiliar himself with handling firearms (or that firearm in particular), showing off, or just lashed out because she did something to annoy him, saw or heard something she shouldn't have, or he was drink/drugged and didn't realise what he'd initially done?
Accidental or not, the deliberate actions involving CM's body post-mortem don't bode well for a child-killer. We've already seen his mother try to paint a sympathetic picture (pushing sh1t uphill there), how clever will his legal team be at manipulating the medicated black sheep of an affluent family's circumstances to a downgraded manslaughter charge, and if KM is innocent, will she stand by her man, believing (or wanting to believe) he didn't intend to kill her daughter?

Sorry, I'm just trying to think of some of the different angles that will be pushed by the media who will bay for blood, versus a narrative his defence will try and counter by feeding their own snippets to the media.

 

[Poppy Penny]

Interview with cousin on abc radio this morn - the cousin said she last saw her when she was 1 year old.

Cousin is a shameless attention seeker then.

 

[Poppy Penny]

The timeline's messy because the press have let us down imo and they've done a job on the mother. They failed at basic research and misinterpreted what the police said at the presser (mis) leading readers to believe that Kallista was ringing Justin to discuss buying sandbags and fuel for the boat to dump her daughter's body.

They might try to switch the narrative now.

At this stage, Kallista is officially a victim of crime and potentially, the most important witness for the DPP in their prosecution of Stein.

I might be naive but I think Mother’s only crime was getting involved with JS and then trusting him to have Charlise alone in his care. Mother must beside herself knowing she is carrying a baby fathered by Charlise’s alleged murderper. Personally I couldn’t keep the baby under the circumstances.