Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[Ruckle]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because it seems like you aren't aware that the term "free thinker" has lost all meaning due to how it's been co-opted by cookers/anti-vaxxers/conspiracy nuts.

It's like how North Korea calls themselves the "Democratic People's Republic" of Korea. You can call yourself whatever you want. Doesn't make it accurate.

So like me saying I am a woman?

 

[Chadwiko]

So like me saying I am a woman?

No, and I'm not going to tolerate any anti-trans nonsense.

It's against the BigFooty rules, and frankly it's a sign of someone being a shit person.

 

[Ruckle]

No, and I'm not going to tolerate any anti-trans nonsense.

It's against the BigFooty rules, and frankly it's a sign of someone being a shit person.

Wasnt intended that way, but see how it seemed so. Just seeking clarity I guess. Anyway, play on.

 

[Twangler]

No but people do say that stuff. Its the basis for alot of racism and discrimination against all minorities.

I'm not saying there is an easy answer or that you should exclude trans people but it certainly raises some questions and if you don't acknowledge you're taking away a safe space for the people who most need it then how will you replace that safe space?

Shouldn’t we aim to have three sets of bathrooms/changing rooms - male, female and gender neutral? In the very very rare instance where someone who identifies differently to their biological sex is making others uncomfortable, then they can be requested to use the gender neutral facility right?

 

[DesertRoo]

Shouldn’t we aim to have three sets of bathrooms/changing rooms - male, female and gender neutral? In the very very rare instance where someone who identifies differently to their biological sex is making others uncomfortable, then they can be requested to use the gender neutral facility right?

just do the French system one bathroom free for all...

 

[the big lebowski]

I’ve missed this

 

[DesertRoo]

I do find it entertaining someone from the so called left, basically fights so hard on every vague identity politics issue, yet when it comes to workers, basically gives them the middle figure with a well I know better then you about what you need.

 

[Chadwiko]

...yet when it comes to workers, basically gives them the middle figure with a well I know better then you about what you need.

I don't even know what you're talking about

 

[DesertRoo]

I don't even know what you're talking about

of course you don't

 

[Liam Boy]

Feels like something's actually changed if even a squishy liberal like Trudeau will stand up and say this. Now that Biden's for the scrapheap it feels like we might see more countries in the US orbit actually meaningfully break from their imperial policy. Maybe I'm just being too optimistic.

 

[Chadwiko]

I'm reminded of when Chad outlined his view of what left politics entails and included gun control.

Which is bipartisan issue largely settled in Australia after a deeply conservative PM introduced the most serious controls.

Because we increasingly have far-right/libertarians being elected to State and Federal government here in Australia who want to reverse or weaken our gun control laws.

Hell, One Nation was busted working with America's NRA, seeking millions in donations to work to undermine Australia's gun control laws.

Don't tell me it's "just" an American issue.

 

[Chadwiko]

So Putin and Netanyahu on the same level in the eyes of the international court.

Good.

 

[DesertRoo]

It's one of the lowest order political issues in Australia, where a strong community and bipartisan consensus remains on gun control.

It's an American issue.

Life is cheap in the US though, they are happy to sacrifice the lives of their children to the God of Guns.

We are in no way comparable. And pretending there's any equivalence between the two is exactly the kind of problem I'm talking about and fundamentally no different from right wing nutbars doing the same on trans stuff

Want to know how comparable we are on the issue, watch the adventures of priscilla from ****ing 1994,
do that in a small town USA...

 

[Chadwiko]

It's one of the lowest order political issues in Australia, where a strong community and bipartisan consensus remains on gun control.

But it's not a non-issue, as I demonstrated.

And the implication that I put it on some sort of big pedestal as a core issue is a lie. You asked me what I considered "left" politics to be, and I did a list. Gun control was well towards the bottom;

We are in no way comparable. And pretending there's any equivalence between the two is exactly the kind of problem I'm talking about and fundamentally no different from right wing nutbars doing the same on trans stuff

The only one trying to suggest there's a comparison between advocating for trans rights in the face of genuine discrimination, and gun control, is you.

Also, the suggestion that the issue of trans rights is not significant in Australia is also regretfully inaccurate. I worked in this space for years. I can tell you categorically you're wrong. Victoria is still dealing with the ramifications of the big anti-trans and neo-nazi rally that was held on the steps of state parliament just last year. It's led to new laws being drafted across Australia.

Hell, our current Prime Minister has made some pretty problematic comments on the issue and is not considered by the trans community to be supportive of the cause.

So please spare me this "oh only people who view the world through an American lens care about these issues" nonsense.

 

[Chadwiko]

Want to know how comparable we are on the issue, watch the adventures of priscilla from ****ing 1994,
do that in a small town USA...

Well first things first; you understand there's a difference between a drag queen and a trans person, right?

Secondly, on the topic of drag queens; are you aware that the LGBTQIA+ community has had to cancel a huge number of planned events because of threats of violence against them directly targeted at drag queens?

And i'm not talking about in small town USA. I'm not talking about in small town Australia. I'm talking about in Inner-City Melbourne;

Councils call off drag storytime and LGBTQ+ events in Victoria after far-right threats

Drag performer who had four IDAHOBIT events cancelled said councils felt they could not create a safe environment

www.theguardian.com

So again, this notion that this is somehow a non-issue here in Australia demonstrates just how out of touch you guys are on this issue.

 

[Chadwiko]

Brazil’s former president Jair Bolsonaro charged with plotting coup d’état

Police accuse 37 people of crimes including conspiracy and trying to tear down one of world’s largest democracies

www.theguardian.com

This is what Biden and Garland should have done

Agreed.

 

[Val Keating]

The Americans tolerate their children, friends and family being routinely slaughtered by maniacs wielding military weapons.

Australia endured a few similar events 30 - 40 years ago and no, never again.

Fwiw I have no doubt that if our gun laws disappeared and we could easily access AR type weapons, we'd have regular massacres again.

The US is a uniquely violent and brutal society by Western standards though. No other country comes close.

Indeed, while Russia has a similar military and prison culture, they don't execute people.

The US tortures prisoners to death with bizarre chemical cocktails.

Having endured the pro US nuffs slander me with nasty and baseless accusations of sympathy for murderous siloviki scum like Putin, it's time for a reckoning.

The US is currently a deeply unwell society - bigoted, violent and aggressive.

Those who continue to absorb its violent martial culture are entirely complicit in this.

Doesn’t pretty much everyone in Switzerland own a gun and they don’t have mass shootings. Merica is a unique beast indeed.

Though I agree, we have enough lunatics here that there would be mass shootings if we relaxed gun control.

 

[DesertRoo]

Well first things first; you understand there's a difference between a drag queen and a trans person, right?

Secondly, on the topic of drag queens; are you aware that the LGBTQIA+ community has had to cancel a huge number of planned events because of threats of violence against them directly targeted at drag queens?

And i'm not talking about in small town USA. I'm not talking about in small town Australia. I'm talking about in Inner-City Melbourne;

Councils call off drag storytime and LGBTQ+ events in Victoria after far-right threats

Drag performer who had four IDAHOBIT events cancelled said councils felt they could not create a safe environment

www.theguardian.com

So again, this notion that this is somehow a non-issue here in Australia demonstrates just how out of touch you guys are on this issue.

So you're saying we became less tolerant as a society?
especially from the early 2000's till now
Why is that?
is this why you attempt to tar everyone you disagree with the same brush?

 

[Chadwiko]

It's a massive issue here, especially with cooker parents.

Largely driven by US and UK political types though.

It's hard to find a major political issue in Australia over the last few decades that wasn't "largely driven by US and UK" politics though. This is nothing new. So why are you arcing up about it now? I'm confused here...

I know for many boomers and older types, they still cling on to that whole 'Australia, don't become America!' counter-culture mindset that was a core part of their identity in the 70s and 80s, and that's fine. But let's not pretend Australia is some powerful independent cultural juggernaut.

You're not one of those types who yells at Australian kids on Halloween to "**** off back to America" are you?

 

[Liam Boy]

Swiss people also get looked after by their country. They feel like they'd have something to personally lose if their country descends into chaos. Americans have nothing, it's a free-for-all in every aspect of culture.

 

[DesertRoo]

No, it's personal front line experience, which I know you share.

When the Vic Govt was introducing Safe Schools, the biggest opposition was mainstream domestic - churches etc.

But in the last few years it's become very US/UK culture war online tinged stuff, especially the threats to drag queens story time, gender neutral toilets at schools etc.

And you're wrong re largely driven by US/UK culture war issues and Australian politics.

I do adore when you try and play the yoof card as a 40 year old and pretend your generation is somehow different to mine ... that grew up on good rap, Seattle grunge and Michael Jordan lol.

The 2022 election was decided largely on the COVID response by the Feds and Morrison's personal unpopularity.

2019 was decides on distinctly Australian tax measures like negative gearing.

But since COVID we've seen a very clear leakage of US online culture war bullshit into our politics and the trans stuff is a great example.

It's not that younger generations are less suspicious of the US than older, it's that you're a full bore US-ophile who struggles to be honest about it.

Mostly because of your carefully constructed image as The Sensible Smart Guy Everyone Should Listen To.

It's fine, it is what it is, we're all used to it and it's priced in

The common theme you hear across America is, I can't be racist I voted for Obama, I would've voted for Bernie etc, these people ain't racist but they're quite open about voting for Trump and this is in Democrat strong holds.
The overarching issue is to do with people can't afford to live, whist they are hearing the government spend up big in other areas. I know it's an over simplification of the world but it's what the f is happening. people are desperate over there.

And we are headed for a Trump style overhaul of our political system here too, America is only a decade ahead of us, in terms of monetary policy. I mean what was the last time I checked I'm paying $170 for daycare a day.. plus mortgage, plus cost of living, Its wtf is going on,
And we don't even have it as bad as the generation below, of course they're going to find sympathetic ears with someone gives basic relief like, we're going to give no tax on tips or we're planning on bringing back jobs and protectionism.
all the culture wars in the world wont change it, unless we stop price gauging, break up monopolies of the super markets etc..
We're literally ****ing a generation below

 

[DesertRoo]

Yep, the generation below you, me and indeed Chad is primed for a blow the joint up moment.

Our political structures are very different and better suited to diffusing that anger though

you have a lot more faith in the political system then I do.

 

[DesertRoo]

Compulsory voting and preferential voting mean Trump like types are all but impossible here

we don't tackle the underlying cause which is putting profits over people, we'll have a bigger slide then you think.

cost of living for the younger generation has to become policy number 1, 2 and 3.

 

[ferball]

Shouldn’t we aim to have three sets of bathrooms/changing rooms - male, female and gender neutral? In the very very rare instance where someone who identifies differently to their biological sex is making others uncomfortable, then they can be requested to use the gender neutral facility right?

Yes.

 

[ferball]

First things first; why do you always default to 'whataboutism'?

Secondly... what you're asking is nonsense, to put it frankly. We're talking about trans men and trans women. People who live their lives as trans men and trans women.

This implication that people want to dress up as the opposite gender just to go into bathrooms for perverted or dangerous reasons is nonsense.

There are couples who dedicate their lives to becoming mirrors of each other physically as well as emotionally/spiritually. There are intersex people who are neither male nor female biologically, people who don't identify as male or female and all sorts of other things I don't know about. They don't fit your categories but they exist, I've known a few of them, some were good friends.

None of those people have recognition.

There are also women who don't want to share the public places they feel vulnerable in with trans women because of the way men have treated them. Yet here you are insisting they do and more importantly refusing to acknowledge that even have a right to their own space.