The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[VogonProsthetnic]

It’s amazing how poor the quality of leaders Labour has dished up the last 20 years.

None of them, except Rudd perhaps have any interest in doing the policy hard yards and they seem obsessed with providing big policy gestures nobody actually wants.

They also haven’t really worked out that Australia is actually very socially conservative ( western Sydney the most socially conservative btw). Australians arent really interested in things like the Voice or the Republic.

The only ones who seem interested in engaging people over policy are actually the teals. The rest seem to devote their time trying to wedge the other parties rather than actually achieving anything. ALP leaders don’t really show any interest in changing despite the pious rhetoric we hear them speak.

 

[dogwatch]

Send me the link dogwatch. Savva is a good writer but has never rated Dutton. I would enjoy the listen .

Sorry, I have no link. I was at a live discussion at ANU so I don't know if it's up anywhere. George has been touring the major cities for the last week or two so I think there would be a few radio interviews and they might be online by now.

Nikki was there mainly as the interviewer (of George) but inevitably got drawn into the discussion and expressed some views of her own. She said to watch out for her column on the subject this week. I forget who she writes for but I'm sure you can find it.

And she made the audience promise not to post any spoilers! (So I won't)

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

Sorry, I have no link. I was at a live discussion at ANU so I don't know if it's up anywhere. George has been touring the major cities for the last week or two so I think there would be a few radio interviews and they might be online by now.

Nikki was there mainly as the interviewer (of George) but inevitably got drawn into the discussion and expressed some views of her own. She said to watch out for her column on the subject this week. I forget who she writes for but I'm sure you can find it.

And she made the audience promise not to post any spoilers! (So I won't)

Late Night Live on RN last week - Monday. You can listen to George on the podcast.

He does a great job putting down the compère (Maher) when he apologises for the uselessness of the left parties when it comes to achieving anything meaningful.

 

[dogwatch]

It’s amazing how poor the quality of leaders Labour has dished up the last 20 years.

None of them, except Rudd perhaps have any interest in doing the policy hard yards and they seem obsessed with providing big policy gestures nobody actually wants.

They also haven’t really worked out that Australia is actually very socially conservative ( western Sydney the most socially conservative btw). Australians arent really interested in things like the Voice or the Republic.

The only ones who seem interested in engaging people over policy are actually the teals. The rest seem to devote their time trying to wedge the other parties rather than actually achieving anything. ALP leaders don’t really show any interest in changing despite the pious rhetoric we hear them speak.

Don't hold your breath but Megalogenis did make a passing reference to some bright young talent coming up through the ranks in the ALP. Not ready yet but maybe in the next term or two of parliament. Didn't mention names but a refresh is definitely due. Albo entered parliament a quarter of a century ago and it's a grueling job. He's just bought himself an expensive retirement mansion on the Central Coast.

I didn't hear any comments on the Libs emerging ranks and would have liked to hear a bit more insight into Dutton's performance and strategy. Unfortunately time was limited and the advertised focus was more on Albo. I would have liked to hear more about the independents too but surprisingly they didn't go into that topic much.

One of the intriguing points made was that the Libs are very interested in western Sydney which is traditionally Labor heartland. They have to find winnable suburban seats. The reason for western Sydney is partly that it's socially conservative but if you look a bit deeper it's largely to do with the immigrant communities there, especially Chinese and Indian. Currently the Chinese community leans conservative and the Indian community leans Labor. But George thinks (and presumably the Libs do too) that the Indian community could easily flip to conservative. Morrison and subsequently Dutton have alienated some of the Chinese community with their hawkish pronouncements about China in recent years so that's a bit of a wildcard. Who knows how the Chinese issue will look if the election is held 3 months after Trump moves into the White House.

There's also the large Muslim community there and it's unclear how they would vote. Socially conservative yes, but probably not comfortable with the LNP stance on the Middle East conflict. Not that Labor has done enough in their eyes either.

There were shock waves when ex-Lib Dai Le won the western Sydney electorate of Fowler from Labor as a centre-right independent at the last election. So they know it can be done. Admittedly Labor shot itself in the foot by parachuting in a non-local captain's pick in Kristina Kenneally ... and an American to boot! (Nothing against Americans, Chicago1 and Floridog, just pointing out that it wouldn't have gone down too well in the industrial west of Sydney, even though she was a former Premier of NSW.)

Hmmmm. Maybe we need a Down Under Circus thread?

 

[Norm De Guerre]

You aren't alone. He's been a disappointment.

I went to listen to George Megalogenis and Nikki Savva discussing the current Australian political scene a few days ago. George was launching his Quarterly Essay on the topic (which I am currently reading) and the debate assumed that there will be a likely Labor or LNP minority government after the next election.

Interesting discussion. The prevailing thinking is that Albo has not told the people what he stands for or where he is taking the country. Like you, nobody seems to know. Too risk averse. Overthinking it perhaps. Not selling his achievements and intentions.

Instead he is allowing Dutton to dictate the agenda and Dutts is loving it. Albo has been too cautious and has blown an opportunity to make effective use of the mandate he had after the 2022 election. Meanwhile Dutton and the Liberal Party who were a train wreck in 2022 have come back from the dead and now lead in some opinion polls.

Anyway, bugger this becoming a conservative in our later years. Maintain the rage!
We need to take care of all of our people, not just the rich and influential. If we hold a steady-as-she-goes line we are all fkd.

I'll be looking for enlightened competent independents at the next election. I hope some will be standing in my electorate.

In my 97 years on this planet. Ive never seen a party burn through its political capital for no benefit like this current labor government have.

What we're seeing is essentially the same small target, point at the other guys awfulness and hope for the best that saw Donald Trump get re-elected. If there is a lesson for Labor to take from that election it's that the voting public dont care about what sort of person the leader is. They clearly bake that into their decision thats why John Howard was Prime Minister for 11 years. What they care about is that they are for better or worse standing on a platform that promises to shake up (by the meagre standards of political change in this country) the status quo of a government that barely has any forward momentum or much of a record of achievement to take to an election.

Sure like the Democrats, labor can point to economic metrics being on the improve, but that isn't an easy sell to a public at the mercy of the real villains of this story. The multi-national corporations that have used the supply crunch of the pandemic to price gouge the public. Im pretty sure that Ive said somewhere else in this thread discussing the Democrats recent failures that corporations are by design nebulous and a much less visible target than any stripe government ever will be.

Albo may be a good machine man who has worked his way through the ranks to the top job in the land. But beyond his humble backstory he's a black hole of charisma who couldn't sell a cup of water to a thirsty man with a pocket full of coins in the Great Victoria Desert. Dutton on the other hand would have no compunction selling the man on the idea of having something to drink.

I think that Labor is about to feel the consequence of taking its eye of its traditional demographic and its political enemy the LNP as it sought to move into and undermine the inner suburban territory of the Greens. However that focus was misplaced. The reality of this strategy is that we've probably witnessed the high water mark of the Greens movement as the inner city electorates return to small l Liberal teals. But no real gain or RoI for labor. This lack off focus has created a vacuum inside of the labor movement that is rapidly being filled by the right wing populism of the LNP.

Talk to any young tradie type and you will see consequences of this and the influence that the mono culture that right wing corporate and social media in the country has, playing out in real time. People used to say that we were only a couple of years behind things happening in the US. The internet age has shrunk that time down to seconds.

As an aside. It makes me sad that people think that having a Monarchy is a good thing or a bulwark to an unelected outside influence on the political process of this country. When thats exactly what monarchies represent.

Mature countries find a way of governing with stability without looking to inbreed foreigners to underpin the political system of their nation. Or they put them to the guillotine which is an equally satisfactory outcome for me.

Viva la revolución. Comrades.

 

[dogwatch]

Good analysis Norm. Most of those points were touched on by George M the other day.
Or by us over a sherbet afterwards. I agree that the Greens have probably peaked, but it's all relative. So have the other major parties.

One point I didn't mention was that George has shifted his thinking on minority government and now thinks it might be a good thing. Unlike the UK and the US, the voters deserting the traditional major parties in Australia haven't been drawn out to the loopy fringes but have decided to shake up the system by voting for the sane centre (independents, teals). He thinks that voting for a minority government will send a message and at the same time will curb the more extreme elements of both Labor and LNP because they will have to treat with the crossbenchers to get legislation through.

I suspect he is actually more referring to the far right under a Dutton-led LNP minority government because there aren't too many far left MPs in the ALP. Can't think of any influential ones off the top of my head anyway.

 

[H Dolphin]

Look what you've done with your God Save the King, Brisdog. From now on, remember Chilla's the Coloniser and no more about drifting right as one ages.

 

[4Seasons]

Got no idea what he is talking about.
But there you go , your brain has to work in mysterious ways to be a Trump fan !

A brain would need to work in a mysterious ways to make over 500 comments on a foreign topic via Social Media.
A brain would need to work in a mysterious ways to lose, then thinking the circle jerk they cherished, would be a solid option for the next four years

 

[Mutt]

Be respectful to each other, please.

 

[maddog37]

Good analysis Norm. Most of those points were touched on by George M the other day.
Or by us over a sherbet afterwards. I agree that the Greens have probably peaked, but it's all relative. So have the other major parties.

One point I didn't mention was that George has shifted his thinking on minority government and now thinks it might be a good thing. Unlike the UK and the US, the voters deserting the traditional major parties in Australia haven't been drawn out to the loopy fringes but have decided to shake up the system by voting for the sane centre (independents, teals). He thinks that voting for a minority government will send a message and at the same time will curb the more extreme elements of both Labor and LNP because they will have to treat with the crossbenchers to get legislation through.

I suspect he is actually more referring to the far right under a Dutton-led LNP minority government because there aren't too many far left MPs in the ALP. Can't think of any influential ones off the top of my head anyway.

That outcome just screams political paralysis to me. Constant trade offs to get deals done and in the end they are so watered down the original intent is largely forgotten.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Good analysis Norm. Most of those points were touched on by George M the other day.
Or by us over a sherbet afterwards. I agree that the Greens have probably peaked, but it's all relative. So have the other major parties.

It doesn't take a big brain like George has to see the direction that we're headed.

I haven't listened to or read anything that he has put out for a long while. But he's one of the few analysts in this country who has an historical contextual grasp on the direction of politics in the country.

One point I didn't mention was that George has shifted his thinking on minority government and now thinks it might be a good thing.

Perhaps.

But for mine the problem with where we are headed is that government will be entwined by the niche interests that independents bring to a parliament that needs to horse trade with a much larger and desperate group just to get any of the business of governing passed. Than they already have to.

Im not sure that the stats quo or the likely changes we'll see is conducive to the wants of the people who elect them.

But its the peoples choice.

Unlike the UK and the US, the voters deserting the traditional major parties in Australia haven't been drawn out to the loopy fringes but have decided to shake up the system by voting for the sane centre (independents, teals). He thinks that voting for a minority government will send a message and at the same time will curb the more extreme elements of both Labor and LNP because they will have to treat with the crossbenchers to get legislation through.

If the effect of the duopoly that the Coles and Woolworths has over retail in this country has taught us anything. It's that duopolies are bad and that they stifle growth and innovation. Besides some movement at the fringes with parties that have come and gone, are on the wane or the comings and goings of independents. It's that we have lived under a political duopoly since federation. Like the US electing one of the dumbest most rapacious people on the planet as their leader, people have a taste and are willing to burn the house that they are standing in down to the ground if it forces political change. I reckon we're entering a stage of political instability the likes of which we have never seen.

If I was a politician I wouldn't be betting on being in parliament over the long term.

I think we'll see the political pendulum swing wildly left and right for the foreseeable future. As the electorate demands more and more from its political class and if they dont deliver they'll look to somebody else to do it. Its literally the only thing that explains the result of the recent Queensland election that saw a competent but long serving government thrown out on its ear.

Italian style politics here we come.

I suspect he is actually more referring to the far right under a Dutton-led LNP minority government because there aren't too many far left MPs in the ALP. Can't think of any influential ones off the top of my head anyway.

It's not really a surprise that the ALP has moved away from a big agenda platform that focused on social and systemic reform. Whenever they've taken a moderate reformist agenda to the electorate since 2013 they've been smashed by an orchestrated and well funded scare campaigns run by the LNP, its Corporate and media backers. It explains why the ALP have fallen back on the bland, small target, non-threatening, reform free strategy that they've had since the 2022 election that saw them get re-elected.

 

[BrisDog]

Agree mate, that’s why he will get his ass kicked come the next election, we need a true Conservative Party and current Liberals sure ain’t it.

I don’t think Dutton will get his arse kicked at the next election. He has a narrow path. But he could actually win it.

If I was a betting man, which I am not, a Labor minority seems most likely. Albo then hastily passes on his leadership to Chalmers, or is forced to.

 

[Next Waiting]

It doesn't take a big brain like George has to see the direction that we're headed.

I haven't listened to or read anything that he has put out for a long while. But he's one of the few analysts in this country who has an historical contextual grasp on the direction of politics in the country.


Perhaps.

But for mine the problem with where we are headed is that government will be entwined by the niche interests that independents bring to a parliament that needs to horse trade with a much larger and desperate group just to get any of the business of governing passed. Than they already have to.

Im not sure that the stats quo or the likely changes we'll see is conducive to the wants of the people who elect them.

But its the peoples choice.



If the effect of the duopoly that the Coles and Woolworths has over retail in this country has taught us anything. It's that duopolies are bad and that they stifle growth and innovation. Besides some movement at the fringes with parties that have come and gone, are on the wane or the comings and goings of independents. It's that we have lived under a political duopoly since federation. Like the US electing one of the dumbest most rapacious people on the planet as their leader, people have a taste and are willing to burn the house that they are standing in down to the ground if it forces political change. I reckon we're entering a stage of political instability the likes of which we have never seen.

If I was a politician I wouldn't be betting on being in parliament over the long term.

I think we'll see the political pendulum swing wildly left and right for the foreseeable future. As the electorate demands more and more from its political class and if they dont deliver they'll look to somebody else to do it. Its literally the only thing that explains the result of the recent Queensland election that saw a competent but long serving government thrown out on its ear.

Italian style politics here we come.



It's not really a surprise that the ALP has moved away from a big agenda platform that focused on social and systemic reform. Whenever they've taken a moderate reformist agenda to the electorate since 2013 they've been smashed by an orchestrated and well funded scare campaigns run by the LNP, its Corporate and media backers. It explains why the ALP have fallen back on the bland, small target, non-threatening, reform free strategy that they've had since the 2022 election that saw them get re-elected.

After being against MMP initially in NZ (in favour of STV) I've come to not dislike it and tbh prefer it.

The knock on it at the time was NZ would descend into the Italian style rabble and instability.

However, the result has by and large been minority government with supply deals and some horse trading. Kingmakers post election.

But, I think the people get a fair crack at representation and diversity of representation.

Compromise is required. Barring an unusual electoral domination it's inevitable.

Minority government has worked OK in a country where you can't buy guns and amo at the local Walmart.

 

[Doggy Dan]

Biden has pardoned his son Hunter. What had the potential to be a lasting vestige of morality and the rule of law, is now a bi-partisan green light for POTUS to do as they please.

 

[maddog37]

Biden has pardoned his son Hunter. What had the potential to be a lasting vestige of morality and the rule of law, is now a bi-partisan green light for POTUS to do as they please.

The whole concept of the presidential pardon is ridiculous. It is was corrupted from the get go.

 

[glenashley]

I don’t think Dutton will get his arse kicked at the next election. He has a narrow path. But he could actually win it.

If I was a betting man, which I am not, a Labor minority seems most likely. Albo then hastily passes on his leadership to Chalmers, or is forced to.

I'd rather a Labor majority than a minority.

Could you imagine the demands from the likes of the greens if they were king makers?

I also suspect the teals, after much confected imaginary due diligence, would support a Labor minority gov.

Having said that, I think the teals may lose a few seats. They sold themselves as 'like liberals, but caring'' when they turned out to actually be 'like the greens, but supporters of keeping family trusts'.

There's a fair bit of buyer remorse in those electorates.

 

[BEaston]

It’s amazing how poor the quality of leaders Labour has dished up the last 20 years.

None of them, except Rudd perhaps have any interest in doing the policy hard yards and they seem obsessed with providing big policy gestures nobody actually wants.

They also haven’t really worked out that Australia is actually very socially conservative ( western Sydney the most socially conservative btw). Australians arent really interested in things like the Voice or the Republic.

The only ones who seem interested in engaging people over policy are actually the teals. The rest seem to devote their time trying to wedge the other parties rather than actually achieving anything. ALP leaders don’t really show any interest in changing despite the pious rhetoric we hear them speak.

In bold, don't think that's true at all. Gillard smashed out many policies. She was a much better prime minister than any we've seen in recent times, just was unfortunately tarnished with all the personal crap led by Abbott (who was actually the worst PM of my life time, not even close.)

Agreed with the rest of your post though!

Very disappointed in Albo. It's actually looking like Shorten was better than him which I thought would be unfathomable back when they were both vying for the Labor leadership before Shorten took the reins.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

The whole concept of the presidential pardon is ridiculous. It is was corrupted from the get go.

What's more ridiculous is the pedestal that they put their presidents on.

Its like as soon as they're elected they forever become the wisest man (obviously) and (now) unimpeachable man (obviously) that god (a fake construct) ever put breath into.

It's hilarious watching all of the pearl clutching on the left about what a terrible precedent it sets for Trump going forward. Something that just ignores Trumps history with pardons and the disruptive flouting of conventions and norms that has been at the core of his political life. Indeed he has just appointed somebody who he pardoned to be ambassador to France, which I imagine would be a pretty plush gig. That person just happens to be his son in laws father.

As corruptly unfathomable as presidential pardons are to me. I actually don't blame Biden in this instance, given Trump is going to rampage through the justice system like an Orangutang on meth as he leaves the pesky problem of governance to others and goes about his real reason for running again after the Supreme Court made him king. His tour of revenge, retribution and re-writing off history with his hand picked stooges running all branches of federal law enforcement at the DoJ.

Given they've been banging the same drum for the last 4 years. Anybody who doesn't believe that Hunter Biden and the 'laptop from hell' was going to be the centre piece of this tour really does have shit for brains. Will he use this pardon as pretext for releasing anybody in prisoned because of Jan 6th? Of course he will. Was he going to do it anyway? Of course he was.

 

[King Harold]

What's more ridiculous is the pedestal that they put their presidents on.

Its like as soon as they're elected they forever become the wisest man (obviously) and (now) unimpeachable man (obviously) that god (a fake construct) ever put breath into.

It's hilarious watching all of the pearl clutching on the left about what a terrible precedent it sets for Trump going forward. Something that just ignores Trumps history with pardons and the disruptive flouting of conventions and norms that has been at the core of his political life. Indeed he has just appointed somebody who he pardoned to be ambassador to France, which I imagine would be a pretty plush gig. That person just happens to be his son in laws father.

As corruptly unfathomable as presidential pardons are to me. I actually don't blame Biden in this instance, given Trump is going to rampage through the justice system like an Orangutang on meth as he leaves the pesky problem of governance to others and goes about his real reason for running again after the Supreme Court made him king. His tour of revenge, retribution and re-writing off history with his hand picked stooges running all branches of federal law enforcement at the DoJ.

Given they've been banging the same drum for the last 4 years. Anybody who doesn't believe that Hunter Biden and the 'laptop from hell' was going to be the centre piece of this tour really does have shit for brains. Will he use this pardon as pretext for releasing anybody in prisoned because of Jan 6th? Of course he will. Was he going to do it anyway? Of course he was.

This where I can give Trump credit.
He has told everyone he requires total fealty ,and if he doesn’t get it , he will come after you.
He is very honest and upfront in this regard.

Biden couldn’t leave his son at the mercy of a deranged Trump and his sycophants.

 

[charcoalchicken]

Joe Biden pardons son Hunter in final weeks in office, despite insisting he would not

The White House says US President Joe Biden has issued a pardon for his son Hunter Biden.

www.abc.net.au

Nothing to see here

 

[King Harold]

Plenty to see here !

Here Are Some of the People Trump Pardoned

Steve Bannon, Anthony Levandowski and Lil Wayne were among those granted clemency in the final hours of the Trump administration. The former president did not announce pardons for himself or his children.

www.nytimes.com

 

[_Cerberus_]

Plenty to see here !

Here Are Some of the People Trump Pardoned

Steve Bannon, Anthony Levandowski and Lil Wayne were among those granted clemency in the final hours of the Trump administration. The former president did not announce pardons for himself or his children.

www.nytimes.com

My favorite one is the war criminal he pardoned, and then gave a high end role to. So much of a s**t bloke, that his own fellow soldiers had to confiscate his weapon, because they felt he was shooting people for fun. Like the guy in the helicopter scene on Full Metal Jacket.

I have no issue with Biden pardoning his son. It was clear he has been on the end of relentless political hit jobs by that trash MAGA party that has infiltrated a once proud, and strong, conservative republican party that had morals. Years of investigations both politically, and by the FBI have picked up nothing.

The republicans are nothing but hypocrites given they routinely ignore people with major red flags over their heads, and give them all cushy jobs. Why won't they release Matt Gaetz house report? Trump has done pardoning of much more trashier characters in the past, but their base seems silent on that. Only pipe up when its anything related to the Dems.

 

[Gold Coast Doggies]

My favorite one is the war criminal he pardoned, and then gave a high end role to. So much of a s**t bloke, that his own fellow soldiers had to confiscate his weapon, because they felt he was shooting people for fun. Like the guy in the helicopter scene on Full Metal Jacket.

I have no issue with Biden pardoning his son. It was clear he has been on the end of relentless political hit jobs by that trash MAGA party that has infiltrated a once proud, and strong, conservative republican party that had morals. Years of investigations both politically, and by the FBI have picked up nothing.

The republicans are nothing but hypocrites given they routinely ignore people with major red flags over their heads, and give them all cushy jobs. Why won't they release Matt Gaetz house report? Trump has done pardoning of much more trashier characters in the past, but their base seems silent on that. Only pipe up when it’s anything related to the Dems.

All 76.5 million Americans hypocrites who voted for him

 

[yebach]

In other news - The Committee on Oversight and Accountability has released a 520 page report on the likely origins of COVID and how effective the response was for those that are interested.

 

[Pugz89]

In other news - The Committee on Oversight and Accountability has released a 520 page report on the likely origins of COVID and how effective the response was for those that are interested.

I just checked. It is a republican dominated committee. So many won't give it creedence.
Interestingly though, they've said it is very likely the virus escaped from a lab.