WSYD The reality of the Western Sydney challenge

[harmesy 37]

You can see how much of an uphill battle they will have when people read opinion pieces from the likes of Roy Masters who says that Australian football is the "invading game" and indirectly likens Australian footballers as being "triffids".

It is a depressing task for GWS when you consider that the Australian game is considered as "foreign" and the English/pommy game is considered as "natural".

Which game was played in Sydney first?
Doesn't this make League the "invading" game if they came AFTER Australian football in Sydney?
Which game is the only Australian game?
Yet all three of the English codes are fawned upon up there in Sydney even though they have a home-grown product to enjoy and treasure. It wouldn't happen in the USA...that is for sure- giving precedence to English football codes.

 

[tonk]

You can see how much of an uphill battle they will have when people read opinion pieces from the likes of Roy Masters who says that Australian football is the "invading game" and indirectly likens Australian footballers as being "triffids".

It is a depressing task for GWS when you consider that the Australian game is considered as "foreign" and the English/pommy game is considered as "natural".

Which game was played in Sydney first?
Doesn't this make League the "invading" game if they came AFTER Australian football in Sydney?
Which game is the only Australian game?
Yet all three of the English codes are fawned upon up there in Sydney even though they have a home-grown product to enjoy and treasure. It wouldn't happen in the USA...that is for sure- giving precedence to English football codes.

Roy has to stir things up, it's how he gets his opinion piece's published and stays vaguely relevant.

 

[Roddy]

You can see how much of an uphill battle they will have when people read opinion pieces from the likes of Roy Masters who says that Australian football is the "invading game" and indirectly likens Australian footballers as being "triffids".

It is a depressing task for GWS when you consider that the Australian game is considered as "foreign" and the English/pommy game is considered as "natural".

Which game was played in Sydney first?
Doesn't this make League the "invading" game if they came AFTER Australian football in Sydney?
Which game is the only Australian game?
Yet all three of the English codes are fawned upon up there in Sydney even though they have a home-grown product to enjoy and treasure. It wouldn't happen in the USA...that is for sure- giving precedence to English football codes.

Only in insecure old Sydney could something that's 100% Australian be seen to be 'invading' Australia...

 

[The AXXXMAN]

Personally I have little time for people who think Western Sydney won't work, or that the AFL should have gone into Tasmania or Canberra instead. To me, GWS is a no brainer in terms of it being the correct decision and in terms of long term success.

The AFL must conquer Sydney and the time to start is right now. There are 2 million people in GWS and the AFL only needs 30,000 to become members and about 400k to embrace GWSFC (in varying degrees from "i follow them them" to "i have a fleeting interest but they are my AFL team of choice"

Rugby League is the dominant code but it is stagnant. They are not growing. They have no money for grass roots football. There are also lots of people who don't like League, lots of people who prefer League but haven't been properly exposed to AFL, and lot's of people who are open to following 2 sports.

Soccer is big in GWS but the NSL don't have a presence. Even if it did it wouldn't make a lot of difference because if you follow soccer it's all about the EPL, Serie A, Champions League etc. AFL has the advantage of being able to bring top level sport and big clubs like Collingwood, Carlton, and Essendon right to their doorstep.

I don't think GWS will win a game in their first year but in 20 years I expect them to be enmeshed in the GWS landscape. With the AFL bankrolling grass roots footy, a bit of success, and a local team in Australia's premier football competition, their long term success is assured in my opinion.

Long term I would expect the AFL to be planning 4 teams in Sydney. The AFL needs to make AFL almost as much a Sydney sport as a Melbourne sport.

I agree that the Western Sydney is a potential growth market for the AFL. But there are issues that are largely out of the AFL's control.

First of all, you're from Sydney, so I'm sure you'll understand much of what I'm about to point out.

Secondly, your reference to NSL. Perhaps you're referring to the recent political agendas that have resurfaced in the game, but if you really want to attract folks who have a main preference for another sport, or even interest them once or twice a year with a live game of AFL, how about showing them the courtesy and respect that you wish will be shown to your preferred sport in the region. you live in Sydney, you obviously cop a bit for following AFL but, going off as they do will not win you or the AFL fans. It will just alienate them even more.

Thirdly, 4 teams? Let's see if they can just cope with 1 more without cannibalising support for the existing team.

IMO, the Sydney expansion is flawed in one important aspect and unfortunately, it is a factor that is out of the AFL's control somewhat and indirectly linked to the Sydney roads and transport infrastructure.

From a geographic POV a home ground at Blacktown or other area within the centre of the Western Sydney region would've been the most ideal scenario. This is Western Sydney. The problem with this however is the poor public transport access within the Western Sydney region, as it is in most parts of the Sydney Metro Area.

In contrast, the Olympic Park precinct is easily accessible with pretty much just one change of trains for a large proportion of the population within the Sydney Metro Area, particularly those from the west and south-west, with access from the North-west provided by buses. Much of the rail access from the west must go through Lidcombe station which is the interchange for the Olympic Park line. This was provided for the 2000 games and is the main reason for the AFL choosing the site as the Giants primary home venue. Accessibility. This is a pro.

The drawback is that the Olympic Park precinct is situated on the most eastern boundary of the Western Sydney region, bordering and close to the Inner west local government areas of Canada Bay, Ryde, Strathfield & Burwood. These areas are not classified as Western Sydney. (As a side note, it's interesting to point out that the Giants players live at Breakfast Point within the LGA of Canada Bay). Swans have many fans from this area. Most hardcore supporters in the areas around Olympic Park and even further west won't swap their allegiance to the Giants, but some who prefer easier access to football nearby rather than catch the train or drive into town, those who attend a Swans game here or there, and those that have a keen interest in football and classify themselves as Swans fans may jump the coop for the team playing football nearby. There is also a healthy football community in the Hills District of the Sydney Metro (the Baulkham Hills shire predominantly) which may also switch allegiance to the Giants because home matches at the closer Olympic Park will be easier to access than Moore Park. Basically, games at Olympic Park will erode some of the Swans support, a scenario the Swans and the AFL can ill-afford.

for those who aren't aware of the Sydney Metro Area, the LGA's inclusive and west of Baulkham Hills, Parramatta, Auburn (where Olympic Park is situated on the border with Canada Bay), bankstown, Liverpool and Campbelltown are considered Western Sydney. Baulkham Hills isn't officially included in Western Sydney region of councils from a government perspective, but it is geographically. Outside of the Sydney Metropolitan Area, the Blue mountains LGA west of Penrith, Hawkesbury LGA north of Penrith, and Wollondilly LGA south-west of camden & campbelltown, are considered to be part of Greater Western Sydney. For those interested, the SCG is located within Sydney City LGA on its eastern border with Randwick & Woollahra.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Sydney_councils.png

Further to cannibalising existing AFL support in nearby areas, the venue is still a fair way from major Western Sydney centres and population hubs such as Penrith & Campbelltown and other areas of the region. As I mentioned before, Olympic Park is on the most eastern boundary of Western Sydney. Many residents in these areas put themselves through the daily grind of travelling east everyday of the working week. New AFL fans in the areas the AFL are targeting with the Giants will have to do it more to support the team. This club does not have a sentimental relationship with Western Sydney. Without any emotional attachment to the club or the game, many people will simply lump the task in the too hard basket, IMO.

Finally, the Olympic Park precinct is largely a wasteland on weekends. There's just one pub, and a handful of cafes and takeaways that generally close on sat nights and weekends. There arent any alternative attractions in the area, unlike Melbourne and it's CBD with regard to Docklands and MCG, and what Adelaide is about to experience with the football moving to SACA.

It's not a surprise why weekly sport is poorly attended in Sydney. It is a pain to get around the joint. Sporting administrators can try all they like, but the problems here are inherent in the infrastructure of the metropolitan area. To simply believe that an untapped market of 2m people is guaranteed to deliver results is foolish. Throwing out millions of AFL $$$ might get the terms GWS and Giants onto the street, but it's not going to change the problems existing within the region outside of the AFL's control, and the general apathy towards anything but major events in Sydney.

 

[lamaros]

The above poster makes some really excellent points.

Sydney is a backwater when it comes to sporting facilities and infrastructure. It's really really bad.

 

[cos789]

First of all, you're from Sydney, so I'm sure you'll understand much of what I'm about to point out.

I'm from Sydney and don't know what you're on about.

if you really want to attract folks who have a main preference for another sport,

The target is people who don't attend other sports.
There's a lot of them in the GWS.

the Olympic Park precinct is easily accessible.....main reason for the AFL choosing the site as the Giants primary home venue.

We know.

The drawback is that the Olympic Park precinct is situated on the most eastern boundary of the Western Sydney region,

It's the geographical heart of Sydney.

Swans have many fans from this area.

I don't think so. Any evidence of this ?

There is also a healthy football community in the Hills District of the Sydney Metro (the Baulkham Hills shire predominantly) which may also switch allegiance to the Giants because home matches at the closer Olympic Park will be easier to access than Moore Park.

No. People don't generally switch allegences.

This club does not have a sentimental relationship with Western Sydney.

Expansion clubs usually don't, however the Giants have done extremely well in promotely the identity of the WS especially at corporate level.
Hopefully this will filter down to the community.

IFinally, the Olympic Park precinct is largely a wasteland on weekends. ......It's not a surprise why weekly sport is poorly attended in Sydney. .

Most sport is not played at Homebush and sport at Homebush depends primarily on the sporting attraction.

 

[.Shotties.]

I don't think so. Any evidence of this ?

I think so. There's a decent sized footy community in the Canada Bay area.

 

[cos789]

Sydney is a backwater when it comes to sporting facilities and infrastructure. It's really really bad.

Unfortunately Sydney has spent a huge amount on sporting infrastructure with liitle to show for it. Instead of the Melbourne model of a few good stadia, Sydney invested in a multitude of inferior stadia. They developed the SCG and then built the small capacity SFS next door, they upgraded almost every rl and RU stadium and even built more new stadia and when presented with the perfect opportunity at Homebush they produced a cheap flawed design that doesn't provide the great facility for sporting spectators that it should be.

 

[The AXXXMAN]

I'm from Sydney and don't know what you're on about.

yes you do. you're not acknowledging because it doesn't agree with your opinion.

The target is people who don't attend other sports.
There's a lot of them in the GWS.

so then, this targeting 2m population figure that's getting thrown about willy nilly should be reduced significantly then, eh?

We know.

I'm trying to have a discussion. I'm listing pros and cons. I can see the merits of playing matches at Olympic Park and acknowledging this. Obviously, this isn't normal on BF where keyboard warriors are only interested in advancing their opinions and not considering others.

It's the geographical heart of Sydney.

not the geographical heart of western sydney.

I don't think so. Any evidence of this?

no. but i have some mates and work colleagues from that part of the inner west that are/were Swans members. if i know a few, there must be more out there.

No. People don't generally switch allegences.

Probably not for hardcores as I said. it depends how emotionally involved or not involved they are and the relevant ease of access to venues.

Expansion clubs usually don't, however the Giants have done extremely well in promotely the identity of the WS especially at corporate level. Hopefully this will filter down to the community.

no doubt about that. but i wouldn't immediately associate many of the sponsors with western sydney. obviously, these partners realise the AFL are going to be spending a mint to get the GWS and Giants brand out there, and association with it is going to deliver great exposure.

Most sport is not played at Homebush and sport at Homebush depends primarily on the sporting attraction.

weekly sport is generally poorly attended in Sydney, where ever it may be scheduled.


in all, you've skirted around some significant arguments. I should point out that I want the Giants to work. As a football & Swans supporter, having a city rival is going to be fantastic. I'm pointing out some inherent problems within Sydney itself that, IMO, is going to make it difficult to sustain, no matter how much cash the AFL throws at it.

 

[The_Reaper]

You would think so but the empty stands and the utter shit franchise name of "Power" just make me view them as plastic and artificial. By the look of their membership base, the people of Adelaide feel the same way. West Coast, Freo and Adelaide have really been embraced as clubs by the people and media of their cities. Sydney and Brisbane are not quite there although I do feel that they both have pretty solid identities and a decent support core.

Perth has about 1.5x the population of Adelaide.
Adelaide and West Coast are 'representive' sides drawing fans from 7+ state league clubs.
Fremantle represents two strongly supported clubs as well as having a logical geographical split.

 

[cos789]

I think so. There's a decent sized footy community in the Canada Bay area.

And with Swans memberships ?
Reflected by a number of JAFCs ?

 

[cos789]

so then, this targeting 2m population figure that's getting thrown about willy nilly should be reduced significantly then, eh?

Why ? Not many people attend professional sports in the WS - do they!

 

[cos789]

. I'm listing pros and cons. I can see the merits of playing matches at Olympic Park and acknowledging this.

It's simple.
Homebush is at the geographical centre of Sydney.
Homebush is well served by public transport.
Homebush is built.

Homebush is far from perfect but what is the alternative ?
There is no real alternative - so what's the point ?

 

[cos789]

i wouldn't immediately associate many of the sponsors with western sydney. obviously, these partners realise the AFL are going to be spending a mint to get the GWS and Giants brand out there, and association with it is going to deliver great exposure.

So you are not just anti- Homebush ,but anti GWS.
You seem to be ignoring the one thing GWS has done really well in establishing a WS brand at coporate level and local government level.

 

[.Shotties.]

And with Swans memberships ?
Reflected by a number of JAFCs ?

By living in the area and knowing a fair few people through juniors.

 

[cos789]

By living in the area and knowing a fair few people through juniors.

I was actually waiting to see if our friend could have said that.
Really, it's not an issue. The SCG is not far on the W/E.
Supporters don't usually jump ship and the Swans have a much better finals chances than GWS. Different matter for someone at Campbelltown maybe.

 

[The AXXXMAN]

Why ? Not many people attend professional sports in the WS - do they!

No they don't. Not that many people attend professional sports in the whole Sydney Metropolitan Area, but it doesn't mean they don't have an allegiance to another sport. Stating that these are the people the Giants and AFL are going to target ignores the many rugby league fans who don't attend matches yet still follow the NRL religiously on TV, and couldn't give a stuff about AFL football. Add those that follow soccer, then 2m is an extremely generous number. They will have exposure to nearly 5m people, they are targeting an area with 2m, how many will actually give a damn with the intention of attending matches is much less than this. I say 'with the intention of attending matches' because obvioulsy, there will be plenty of rugby league supporters who will have an interest in the early on-field performance of the team, and crowd numbers in relation to rugby league.

It's simple.
Homebush is at the geographical centre of Sydney.
Homebush is well served by public transport.
Homebush is built.

Homebush is far from perfect but what is the alternative ?
There is no real alternative - so what's the point ?

That is my point. Success or failure of the Giants venture might not be in the hands of the AFL. It could be hamstrung by Sydney's infrastructure, like everything else in this city.

Olympic Park is at the geographical centre of Sydney, but the Giants target market is west of it.

It is well-serviced by public transport, but being in the far east of the Western Sydney region, it is a distance from some major Western Sydney centres.

So you are not just anti- Homebush ,but anti GWS.
You seem to be ignoring the one thing GWS has done really well in establishing a WS brand at coporate level and local government level.

I'm not ignoring the work of the Giants at all. Far from it. It's not the generic brand of Western Sydney that it is attractive, it is the brand of GWS Giants and their reach and exposure in the Western Sydney region.

 

[bunsen burner]

Secondly, your reference to NSL. Perhaps you're referring to the recent political agendas that have resurfaced in the game, but if you really want to attract folks who have a main preference for another sport, or even interest them once or twice a year with a live game of AFL, how about showing them the courtesy and respect that you wish will be shown to your preferred sport in the region. you live in Sydney, you obviously cop a bit for following AFL but, going off as they do will not win you or the AFL fans. It will just alienate them even more.

Not sure what your point is? As for arrogance and treatment of others, the difference between AFL and Soccer is that both are as arrogant as each other but only one walks the walk.

Thirdly, 4 teams? Let's see if they can just cope with 1 more without cannibalising support for the existing team.

I did say long term. I don't recall advocating new teams until this one is up and running.

IMO, the Sydney expansion is flawed in one important aspect and unfortunately, it is a factor that is out of the AFL's control somewhat and indirectly linked to the Sydney roads and transport infrastructure.

I've heard it all now.

From a geographic POV a home ground at Blacktown or other area within the centre of the Western Sydney region would've been the most ideal scenario. This is Western Sydney. The problem with this however is the poor public transport access within the Western Sydney region, as it is in most parts of the Sydney Metro Area.

Easter show gets packed. Seen big AFL crowds at homebush before. People do have cars you know.

It's not a surprise why weekly sport is poorly attended in Sydney. It is a pain to get around the joint.

I have a better reaon:

1. Rugby League is a second rate game
2. As good as soccer is, it's a feeder league. Plonk Man Utd at Homebush every week and you'll sell it out everyweek.

I agree the infrastructure is far from ideal but it's not the deal breaker you make it out to be.

Sporting administrators can try all they like, but the problems here are inherent in the infrastructure of the metropolitan area. To simply believe that an untapped market of 2m people is guaranteed to deliver results is foolish.

Obviously you have no idea how big and deep the AFLs war chest is and how much money they will sink into grass roots football in the region.

Throwing out millions of AFL $$$ might get the terms GWS and Giants onto the street, but it's not going to change the problems existing within the region outside of the AFL's control, and the general apathy towards anything but major events in Sydney.

If I had a dollar for every Sydney Sider who made excuses why their sporting codes get por crowds i'd be able to fund the Giants myself.

The cold hard truth is that the biggest factors are they have either second tier football codes on offer (Rugby codes), or second tier (at best) competition on offer (soccer).

 

[The AXXXMAN]

Not sure what your point is? As for arrogance and treatment of others, the difference between AFL and Soccer is that both are as arrogant as each other but only one walks the walk.

Keep the natives happy. Calling a soccer supporters league the NSL when it's the A-league is hardly going to win fans. At the moment, Sydney FC's supporters come from all over the Sydney Metro, including Western Sydney. The A-league schedule their season in the AFL off-season. Western Sydney soccer supporters could very well be interested in following the Giants, but get enough AFL types disrespecting their sport, and they might end up doing same to AFL.

I did say long term. I don't recall advocating new teams until this one is up and running.

That's very long-term IMO. So long, I think you and I will have well passed on.

I've heard it all now.

Don't discount it.

Easter show gets packed. Seen big AFL crowds at homebush before. People do have cars you know.

Easter show is a once a year major event. More recently, Swans crowds have been dwindling in games at Olympic Park.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/sydney-crowds-are-a-giant-problem/story-fn7si05c-1226095541377

even the V8 supercar crowds are getting smaller in the 3 years I've been going out there.

The supporters the Giants are going to attract to most of their Showground games will be those living around the Olympic Park precinct. This includes LGA's not even classified as Western Sydney as I mentioned in an earlier post - Canada Bay, Ryde, Strathfield, Burwood (these should be Swans areas) - as well as some probably within the eastern areas of Western Sydney such as Auburn, Fairfield & Parramatta. It'll be GWS in name only as main support will come from Inner West/Centre West of Sydney, with people living in the real Greater West still needing to travel long distances to games. One game in Blacktown against West Coast will bring out the curious, but then it's back to the Olympic Park which is borerline Inner West.

I have a better reaon:

1. Rugby League is a second rate game
2. As good as soccer is, it's a feeder league. Plonk Man Utd at Homebush every week and you'll sell it out everyweek.

I agree the infrastructure is far from ideal but it's not the deal breaker you make it out to be.

There you go again.

No. Not many Penrith supporters will even travel to Olympic Park to watch their team against South Sydney or Canterbury. What makes you certain they'll travel the 45km in droves regularly to watch GWS? They'll come for derbies. The test will be all the other Olympic Park games.

And if Sydney Manchester Utd were to charge the same for ticket prices as they do at Old Trafford, then I would think they wouldn't get too many patrons going to all 38 league matches. Just as not many in Melbourne would continue attending AFL matches if ticket prices became so ridiculous.

Obviously you have no idea how big and deep the AFLs war chest is and how much money they will sink into grass roots football in the region.

Grassroots and playing the game is one thing. Getting mums and dads paying to get their kids to the game is another. All those Auskickers in Bay 1 at the SCG are freebies, not paid up.

If I had a dollar for every Sydney Sider who made excuses why their sporting codes get por crowds i'd be able to fund the Giants myself.

The cold hard truth is that the biggest factors are they have either second tier football codes on offer (Rugby codes), or second tier (at best) competition on offer (soccer).

the rugby codes are, in fact, top tier leagues.

 

[cos789]

they are targeting an area with 2m, how many will actually give a damn with the intention of attending matches is much less than this.

I thought that would be obvious.
1% of 2 million is 20k.
The catchment area is 2 million people.
The target is a small percentage of the catchment.
Memberships are coming along and might ramp up towards the start of the season.

 

[cos789]

The supporters the Giants are going to attract to most of their Showground games will be those living around the Olympic Park precinct.

Why ?

 

[cos789]

Not many Penrith supporters will even travel to Olympic Park to watch their team against South Sydney or Canterbury. What makes you certain they'll travel the 45km in droves regularly to watch GWS?

People attend the SCG which isn't transport friendly.
Why wouldn't people travel to Homebush ?

 

[bunsen burner]

Keep the natives happy. Calling a soccer supporters league the NSL when it's the A-league is hardly going to win fans. At the moment, Sydney FC's supporters come from all over the Sydney Metro, including Western Sydney. The A-league schedule their season in the AFL off-season. Western Sydney soccer supporters could very well be interested in following the Giants, but get enough AFL types disrespecting their sport, and they might end up doing same to AFL.


That's very long-term IMO. So long, I think you and I will have well passed on.


Don't discount it.


Easter show is a once a year major event. More recently, Swans crowds have been dwindling in games at Olympic Park.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/sydney-crowds-are-a-giant-problem/story-fn7si05c-1226095541377

even the V8 supercar crowds are getting smaller in the 3 years I've been going out there.

The supporters the Giants are going to attract to most of their Showground games will be those living around the Olympic Park precinct. This includes LGA's not even classified as Western Sydney as I mentioned in an earlier post - Canada Bay, Ryde, Strathfield, Burwood (these should be Swans areas) - as well as some probably within the eastern areas of Western Sydney such as Auburn, Fairfield & Parramatta. It'll be GWS in name only as main support will come from Inner West/Centre West of Sydney, with people living in the real Greater West still needing to travel long distances to games. One game in Blacktown against West Coast will bring out the curious, but then it's back to the Olympic Park which is borerline Inner West.


There you go again.

No. Not many Penrith supporters will even travel to Olympic Park to watch their team against South Sydney or Canterbury. What makes you certain they'll travel the 45km in droves regularly to watch GWS? They'll come for derbies. The test will be all the other Olympic Park games.

And if Sydney Manchester Utd were to charge the same for ticket prices as they do at Old Trafford, then I would think they wouldn't get too many patrons going to all 38 league matches. Just as not many in Melbourne would continue attending AFL matches if ticket prices became so ridiculous.


Grassroots and playing the game is one thing. Getting mums and dads paying to get their kids to the game is another. All those Auskickers in Bay 1 at the SCG are freebies, not paid up.


the rugby codes are, in fact, top tier leagues.

How about I leave you to go follow whatever second rate sport you are into.

 

[cos789]

Grassroots and playing the game is one thing. Getting mums and dads paying to get their kids to the game is another.

Another obvious statement.
It's difficult, but it does happen.

 

[The AXXXMAN]

When foundation memberships closed on October 31 last year, more than 40 per cent were based in Canberra, where the club will play three matches this season. Just 25 per cent were from the 14 local government areas that make up GWS regions, including Liverpool, Blacktown, Penrith, Parramatta, Fairfield, Auburn, Bankstown and Campbelltown, with the rest of Sydney, and Australia, making up the remainder. But of their 6027 members, 2304 - or 38 per cent - come from western Sydney area, while 1718 - or 29 per cent - are from Canberra, with the remaining 2005 from other parts of Sydney and Australia.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...hip-figures-20120305-1uedu.html#ixzz1oKDIWy6a

I wonder how many of the 2005 memberships from other parts of Sydney and Australia have been purchased by residents living in local government areas near Olympic Park that are not Western Sydney, such as previously mentioned Canada Bay, Ryde, Strathfield, Burwood, Hunters Hill, etc. Would be great to know.

Would also be great to know how many of the actual memberships that come from the Greater Western Sydney area are attributed to the Hills Shire, which is probably the strongest of the footballing regions in Western Sydney.