The war against renewable energy

[nut]

They have a lot of renewable capacity, but they still use gas, coal and Nuclear to fill the holes/
And Sweden and Finland have a crazy water to population ration that makes them irrelevant to most other countries.

Those countries also have limited space and sun for solar….

Australia is extremely lucky with its space and sun.
Nuclear is a good option for some
Countries that aren’t rich in renewables …
If you could ask any country what would they prefer… all would say renewables.
Why would you waste money on Nuclear when you have much cheaper options.

Storage is the key. And that’s coming.

 

[Carn The Berries]

What annoys me is posts like this, when all the information about the cost of renewables is there for every person to see…

Oh.... That's right... The ALP policies will supposedly save households $275 per year.

Political shizenhousery is symmetrical across both sides of the aisle...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Those countries also have limited space and sun for solar….

Australia is extremely lucky with its space and sun.
Nuclear is a good option for some
Countries that aren’t rich in renewables …
If you could ask any country what would they prefer… all would say renewables.
Why would you waste money on Nuclear when you have much cheaper options.

Storage is the key. And that’s coming.

Germany built a Nuclear Power station right on a fault line, should not have got built but i think there was some palm greasing involved. They never brought it up to capacity and was eventually dismantled. ( Not easy dismantling active nuclear power stations ).
Now that was an incredible waste of money.

Yallourn W Station can produce 1450MW. If it runs all night in winter, 5pm to 7am that's 20 300 MWh.
The Melbourne big battery cost $160 Million for 450MWh.

There is no economics of scale, if you want a battery twice the size, it takes twice the space, it costs twice as much.
To allow us to shut down Yallourn W, we need 20 300MWH, so that's 45 Big Batteries.
45 Big batteries costs, $7.2 Billion Dollars.

That amount of Nuclear would cost around $25-30 Billion, so you are correct, It costs more, but its false to consider that battery based story will give you cheap energy at night. ( Honestly if they built it in Australia we'd find a way to make it cost twice that much, and it would probably be dodgier than the ones in India and China ).

 

[nut]

Germany built a Nuclear Power station right on a fault line, should not have got built but i think there was some palm greasing involved. They never brought it up to capacity and was eventually dismantled. ( Not easy dismantling active nuclear power stations ).
Now that was an incredible waste of money.

Yallourn W Station can produce 1450MW. If it runs all night in winter, 5pm to 7am that's 20 300 MWh.
The Melbourne big battery cost $160 Million for 450MWh.

There is no economics of scale, if you want a battery twice the size, it takes twice the space, it costs twice as much.
To allow us to shut down Yallourn W, we need 20 300MWH, so that's 45 Big Batteries.
45 Big batteries costs, $7.2 Billion Dollars.

That amount of Nuclear would cost around $25-30 Billion, so you are correct, It costs more, but its false to consider that battery based story will give you cheap energy at night. ( Honestly if they built it in Australia we'd find a way to make it cost twice that much, and it would probably be dodgier than the ones in India and China ).

Cost of batteriesis falling

Watt density is getting better making batteries smaller

New tech on horizon increasing life cycles

Austria built a reactor and it never came online.

Let’s say half way through building rectors in Aus, some rogue country or terrorist decide to bomb a plant somewhere in the world and the Australian populations decides it no longer wants nuclear…

The risks with nuclear are on so many different levels makes it stupid IMO.

 

[barreness]

I remember a lot of faceook boomers talking about Germany when the war broke out.

Claims European countries are 'abandoning' renewables don't add up | AAP

www.aap.com.au

Looks like their transition, along with most of the EU is going gangbusters.

They were given no choice with nord stream, their industrial sector has been smashed though

Yeh the boomer shit about shutting down nuclear was always trash, those plants were done

 

[barreness]

Germany built a Nuclear Power station right on a fault line, should not have got built but i think there was some palm greasing involved. They never brought it up to capacity and was eventually dismantled. ( Not easy dismantling active nuclear power stations ).
Now that was an incredible waste of money.

Yallourn W Station can produce 1450MW. If it runs all night in winter, 5pm to 7am that's 20 300 MWh.
The Melbourne big battery cost $160 Million for 450MWh.

There is no economics of scale, if you want a battery twice the size, it takes twice the space, it costs twice as much.
To allow us to shut down Yallourn W, we need 20 300MWH, so that's 45 Big Batteries.
45 Big batteries costs, $7.2 Billion Dollars.

That amount of Nuclear would cost around $25-30 Billion, so you are correct, It costs more, but its false to consider that battery based story will give you cheap energy at night. ( Honestly if they built it in Australia we'd find a way to make it cost twice that much, and it would probably be dodgier than the ones in India and China ).

Yes batteries are never going to be great, limits to chemical storage. Could keep the hospital on
The option of course is energy rationing but capitalism ya know

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Cost of batteriesis falling

Watt density is getting better making batteries smaller

New tech on horizon increasing life cycles

Austria built a reactor and it never came online.

Let’s say half way through building rectors in Aus, some rogue country or terrorist decide to bomb a plant somewhere in the world and the Australian populations decides it no longer wants nuclear…

The risks with nuclear are on so many different levels makes it stupid IMO.

Watt Density isn't really useful for Batteries that support the electricity grid.
The price probably isn't falling as much either at that level.

The main issue with Nuclear is that it "does" cost several times more than Battery.

 

[nut]

Watt Density isn't really useful for Batteries that support the electricity grid.

It is space is a consideration.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It is space is a consideration.

Not as much as weight is a consideration in cars.
And there is a lot of dead space in a large battery, because you don't want the individual modules too close to each other.
( There was a fire at the Melbourne large battery , but it was designed in such a way that it didn't spread ).

 

[Seeds]

Yes batteries are never going to be great, limits to chemical storage. Could keep the hospital on
The option of course is energy rationing but capitalism ya know

You want to energy ration? Do you want people to live miserable lives?

Thankfully there is no need for that. Batteries and renewables together are cheap and getting cheaper.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You want to energy ration? Do you want people to live miserable lives?

Thnakfully there is no need for that. Batteries and renewables together are cheap and getting cheaper.

Since originally released around 6 years ago, Powerwall (2) has proven very popular in Australia. There were hopes the arrival of Powerwall on the scene would accelerate price reductions in solar battery storage. And it looked like this would be the case for a short while when you could get one installed for under $10,000.

But in 2018 the price jumped significantly. There were more increases than decreases from that point and the cost of Powerwall shifted into ludicrous mode late last year. In October 2022, it jumped to more than $16,000 without installation. However, after three consecutive price increases over a period of 7 months, good news arrived late last week in an email from Tesla to installers, which stated:

“We are pleased to inform you that due to ongoing improvements in supply chains and foreign exchange, the price of Powerwall will decrease as of Friday 24th February 2023.”

The reduction isn’t just a token amount – it has dropped from a previous recommended retail price of $16,230 inclusive of GST to $14,599; so a reduction of $1,631. That’s on par with pricing in May last year, but still significantly more than it was prior.

Tesla Powerwall Price Takes A Tumble In Australia

Shock! Horror! But in a good way. Rumours of a Tesla Powerwall price drop turned out to be correct. Now it's just expensive.

www.solarquotes.com.au

 

[Seeds]

Since originally released around 6 years ago, Powerwall (2) has proven very popular in Australia. There were hopes the arrival of Powerwall on the scene would accelerate price reductions in solar battery storage. And it looked like this would be the case for a short while when you could get one installed for under $10,000.

But in 2018 the price jumped significantly. There were more increases than decreases from that point and the cost of Powerwall shifted into ludicrous mode late last year. In October 2022, it jumped to more than $16,000 without installation. However, after three consecutive price increases over a period of 7 months, good news arrived late last week in an email from Tesla to installers, which stated:


The reduction isn’t just a token amount – it has dropped from a previous recommended retail price of $16,230 inclusive of GST to $14,599; so a reduction of $1,631. That’s on par with pricing in May last year, but still significantly more than it was prior.

Tesla Powerwall Price Takes A Tumble In Australia

Shock! Horror! But in a good way. Rumours of a Tesla Powerwall price drop turned out to be correct. Now it's just expensive.

www.solarquotes.com.au

Im taking grid level batteries and solar power.

Rooftop setups are too expensive and a waste of money.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Im taking grid level batteries and solar power.

Rooftop setups are too expensive and a waste of money.

The Government love rooftop, because people buy it and help build the surplus solar we need. No commercial entity would build surplus solar with so little payback.
( Or if there is payback, its because the charge rates are so high in the first place ).

In Perth, they are actually having a problem where there is too much rooftop solar electricity being generated on a sunny day for the grid to handle.. Which means you need to build a big battery you dumbasses running the place.

 

[barreness]

You want to energy ration? Do you want people to live miserable lives?

Just sustainable ones

Thankfully there is no need for that. Batteries and renewables together are cheap and getting cheaper.

Yes yes the magic pudding, it just gets bigger and cheaper, limits do not exist on this infinite planet

 

[nut]

.

Rooftop setups are too expensive and a waste of money.

What a silly statement, we have probably the cheapest roof top solar in the world, about a third of the costs of the USA… and Biden just put tariffs on solar and batteries.

A waste of money is paying for something you can get for free.

My total system with solar and batteries has cost me 30k
And I now save $4.5k a year and look like making about $1k tax free credit.
That’s a payback of under 6 years.
It’s great having blackout protection too

 

[Seeds]

Im taking grid level batteries and solar power.

Rooftop setups are too expensive and a waste of money.

Grid level batteries can be used to mop up the extra power from either rooftop or grid level solar. You dont need to use powerwalls just because the solar is on roofs.

And utility solar is much cheaper then rooftop solar. But if people dont know any better or wont wait for governments to build it then we will end up with more expensive solar then we should have. But if we already have enough of it then there is no need for nuclear in any case is there? And if we dont have enough of it we build cheap grid and solar batter units combined and the private owner makes its money from owning the battery and selling power at night back to the grid at a price that in combination with the solar makes a reasonable profut but is still cheaper then nuclear power.

 

[Seeds]

What a silly statement, we have probably the cheapest roof top solar in the world, about a third of the costs of the USA… and Biden just put tariffs on solar and batteries.

A waste of money is paying for something you can get for free.

My total system with solar and batteries has cost me 30k
And I now save $4.5k a year and look like making about $1k tax free credit.
That’s a payback of under 6 years.
It’s great having blackout protection too

I should rephrase. Its a waste compared to the power price that would occur if we were running a grid on wind, solar, batteries and some hydro. That grid would provide cheaper power prices and you would be losing money. However, that grid does not yet exist thus why you would make money against a mostly fossil fuel based grid. In the future, if logic and truth prevails, we will have the cheapest grid run off renewables.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

For something a bit lighter, ( not literally ), the Tesla at 5:35 goes ok.

 

[nut]

I should rephrase. Its a waste compared to the power price that would occur if we were running a grid on wind, solar, batteries and some hydro. That grid would provide cheaper power prices and you would be losing money. However, that grid does not yet exist thus why you would make money against a mostly fossil fuel based grid. In the future, if logic and truth prevails, we will have the cheapest grid run off renewables.

regardless of feed in tariffs, rooftop solar + batteries, sized properly for household usage is still very viable, and will continue to be as the costs continue to fall.

Grid prices need to be competitive to stop people going completely off grid..

 

[sdfc]

regardless of feed in tariffs, rooftop solar + batteries, sized properly for household usage is still very viable, and will continue to be as the costs continue to fall.

Grid prices need to be competitive to stop people going completely off grid..

They'll charge ever increasing prices for the grid.

 

[Seeds]

They'll charge ever increasing prices for the grid.

Who is they? The grid price is based off competitive bidding.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

regardless of feed in tariffs, rooftop solar + batteries, sized properly for household usage is still very viable, and will continue to be as the costs continue to fall.

Grid prices need to be competitive to stop people going completely off grid..

Going off grid with solar and battery can be done but unless you are prepared for the odd blackout, you need some sort of backup generation, at the moment with fossil fuel. ( Potentially ammonia/hydrogen ).

Wind power doesn't really lend itself to small scale applications.

 

[Seeds]

Going of grid with solar and battery can be done but unless you are prepared for the odd blackout, you need some sort of backup generation, at the moment with fossil fuel. ( Potentially ammonia/hydrogen ).

Wind power doesn't really lend itself to small scale applications.

And this is the main reason why the grid should be much better. Wind does work well as a complement to solar on the grid. Its not viable as a solar complement for off grid. Economies of scale of the grid also helps lower costs.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

And this is the main reason why the grid should be much better. Wind does work well as a complement to solar on the grid. Its not viable as a solar complement for off grid. Economies of scale of the grid also helps lower costs.

Ten solar panels on 100 rooftops, no different from 1000 in a paddock. Only the installation costs.
Often (Usually ) rooftop can use existing infrastructure, where a solar farm may need something built.

 

[sdfc]

Who is they? The grid price is based off competitive bidding.

No that would be the marginal cost not the fixed cost. I don't know what it's like in the east but in Perth the tariff has been upped because of the penetration of roof top solar.

Do you really think we are going to be permitted to have free power after capital cost? The grid will need to be paid for.