The war against renewable energy

[peetoo]

Let’s keep pumping fossil fuels into the atmosphere


View attachment 2184658

Getting a look at once flowing water on mars should have been a huge wake-up call to us

 

[nut]

Getting a look at once flowing water on mars should have been a huge wake-up call to us

The fact we are discussing cost is pretty stupid… and deciding what’s more profitable is the most insane thing …
We really are the most stupidest animals on the planet… a cancer on the planet.
…. And even when we are provided the most cost affective and environmentally friendly source of electricity.. there are still twits that dont believe it.

 

[Power Raid]

The levelized cost of storage (LCOS) is a way to compare the economic costs of different storage technologies. It's calculated by dividing the total life cycle cost of a system by its total lifetime energy production.

$200 per KWH /4000 cycles = 5cents KWH

Now that 4000 cycles is not its end of life but it’s a standard assumption.

But you and I both no what you’re representing is false

That’s why you won’t address the questions presented

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Getting a look at once flowing water on mars should have been a huge wake-up call to us

Riiiiight. So we're talking about the science here. Those bloody environmentally reckless martians.

 

[nut]

But you and I both no what you’re representing is false

That’s why you won’t address the questions presented

In your mind …..

Gencost have similar figures to my beer coaster figures, so can you explain how my figures are wrong????
It’s not rocket science….

“It's calculated by dividing the total life cycle cost of a system by its total lifetime energy production.”

Also you can’t calculate the cost of solar or wind or battery on their own…. It’s actually pointless.
It’s like calculating hydro with out water.

Larger scale batteries upfront cost is between $80USD and $250USD per KWH…
Life cycles = life time production.
… I’m sure you can work out the rest.
charging them up using Solar is so cheap it’s hardly worth adding it to the cost..

 

[nut]

“Commercially available LiFePO4 batteries last anywhere from 2000 cycles to 10,000 cycles.”

At 10,000 cycles at 1 per day is 27 years!!!!! about a third of the life of a nuclear plant, and they are recyclable.

And soon Sodium batteries will mass produced at 30% cheaper.

 

[peetoo]

Riiiiight. So we're talking about the science here. Those bloody environmentally reckless martians.

So the catastrophe wasn’t Martian- made.. sure I see the difference

 

[Power Raid]

In your mind …..

Gencost have similar figures to my beer coaster figures, so can you explain how my figures are wrong????
It’s not rocket science….

“It's calculated by dividing the total life cycle cost of a system by its total lifetime energy production.”

Also you can’t calculate the cost of solar or wind or battery on their own…. It’s actually pointless.
It’s like calculating hydro with out water.

Larger scale batteries upfront cost is between $80USD and $250USD per KWH…
Life cycles = life time production.
… I’m sure you can work out the rest.
charging them up using Solar is so cheap it’s hardly worth adding it to the cost..

But again you know this is not a true statement is it?

What efficiency rate?
What discount rate?
What inflation rate?
What installation cost?
What servicing costs?
What utilisation rate?
What capacity factor?

What does groups who use BESS claim as cost based on actual reality rather conceptual?



oh and referencing the GenCost after posting links about how grossly dishonest and inaccurate the findings were? Can you add some colour here?

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

The fact we are discussing cost is pretty stupid… and deciding what’s more profitable is the most insane thing …
We really are the most stupidest animals on the planet… a cancer on the planet.
…. And even when we are provided the most cost affective and environmentally friendly source of electricity.. there are still twits that dont believe it.

Lets put cost and profit to one side and focus on the environmental impact, specifically, as you point out, the amount of CO2 produced per energy source. If we are serious about stopping global warming, then we need to go wind and nuclear. They have the lowest gCO2/KWh.

Wind 11g
Nuclear 12g
Tidal 22g
Hydropower 24g
Solar Energy 41g
Biomass 230g
Natural Gas 450g
Coal 910g

 

[Power Raid]

In your mind …..

Gencost have similar figures to my beer coaster figures, so can you explain how my figures are wrong????
It’s not rocket science….

“It's calculated by dividing the total life cycle cost of a system by its total lifetime energy production.”

Also you can’t calculate the cost of solar or wind or battery on their own…. It’s actually pointless.
It’s like calculating hydro with out water.

Larger scale batteries upfront cost is between $80USD and $250USD per KWH…
Life cycles = life time production.
… I’m sure you can work out the rest.
charging them up using Solar is so cheap it’s hardly worth adding it to the cost..

to help you out

 

[Power Raid]

Lets put cost and profit to one side and focus on the environmental impact, specifically, as you point out, the amount of CO2 produced per energy source. If we are serious about stopping global warming, then we need to go wind and nuclear. They have the lowest gCO2/KWh.

Wind 11g
Nuclear 12g
Tidal 22g
Hydropower 24g
Solar Energy 41g
Biomass 230g
Natural Gas 450g
Coal 910g

The issue though is there is not one jurisdiction on the planet with a solar and or wind strategy that doesn't rely upon nuclear or hydro that has achieved clean energy.

Adding solar and wind to nuclear and hydro has also resulted in increased CO2.


This isn't to say without large scale affordable and safe storage, this statement will one day no longer hold true. but to get down to 14-70g CO2 per kWh we need a technology breakthrough.

Rolling out batteries is also rolling out PFAS (cancer, diabetes and foetal mortality) should not be a price of doing business. Hydrogen from electrolysers face the same challenge but carbon and silicon alternatives to PFAS are not far away (this is why FMG pulled out of the immediate race)

 

[nut]

What efficiency rate?

80% …

What discount rate?

5%

What inflation rate?

Batteries have reduce 97% in the last three decades.

What installation cost?

It’s included in the capital costs

What servicing costs?

Bugger all compared to any other energy source.

What utilisation rate?

Basically instant… depending on the grid.

What capacity factor?

Having a decentralised grid will reduce the capacity factor and strengthen grid resistance..

What does groups who use BESS claim as cost based on actual reality rather conceptual?

Refer Gencost .. Lazards…

 

[Power Raid]

80% …


5%


Batteries have reduce 97% in the last three decades.



It’s included in the capital costs



Bugger all compared to any other energy source.


Basically instant… depending on the grid.


Having a decentralised grid will reduce the capacity factor and strengthen grid resistance..




Refer Gencost .. Lazards…

do you get one full cycle per day out of your batteries at home? is $0.35 too low for your installation?

 

[nut]

Lets put cost and profit to one side and focus on the environmental impact, specifically, as you point out, the amount of CO2 produced per energy source. If we are serious about stopping global warming, then we need to go wind and nuclear. They have the lowest gCO2/KWh.

Wind 11g
Nuclear 12g
Tidal 22g
Hydropower 24g
Solar Energy 41g
Biomass 230g
Natural Gas 450g
Coal 910g

I’m assuming you are assuming that because 95% of Solar is produced in china, and they have a high % of coal in its grid, that’s how you get 41g.
So as chinas grid gets greener .. currently 36%… and mines go electric etc… this figure will continue to fall…
Solar panels once built dont produce CO2.

 

[Power Raid]

I’m assuming you are assuming that because 95% of Solar is produced in china, and they have a high % of coal in its grid, that’s how you get 41g.
So as chinas grid gets greener .. currently 36%… and mines go electric etc… this figure will continue to fall…
Solar panels once built dont produce CO2.

The silica for UHPQ for solar panels is mined in North Carolina
The shipped to Norway, as they can not get approval to process the material in the US
The silica is beneficiated in Norway using HF and other unsavouries
The HF is dumped into the Norwegian Sea under 1970s environmental approvals (china kills 20 to 30 people per day trying to replicate what Norway does)
The product is then shipped to China
All of this equals CO2

The silicon is made in Australia using quartz reef the size of golf balls
The quartz is mixed with high quality carbon
This high quality carbon is old growth forest from South America (we use theirs as we can't chop down our forests any more)
This is shipped to Oz
This is processed in submerged arc furnaces using 3,000 degree temps (high CO2)
This is then ground up and HF added
This is then shipped to China
All of this equals CO2 (this alone is 12t of CO2 per tonne of silicon)

China then takes the silicon and adds magnesium (produced using the pigeon process (high CO2 & the dirtiest part))
The silicon and magnesium form magnesium silicide. This is done at high temp.
100kWh of energy and hydrochloric acid is added to convert to the silicon into gas form
This is then precipitated into poly silicon
All of this equals high CO2

The poly silicon is turned in pullers at 2,200 degrees in the UHPQ (refer above) and monosilicon is pulled
The mono is cut, polished and more chemicals added
All of this equals high CO2


Thus cleaning up the grid will not translate to low CO2 for solar

 

[nut]

View attachment 2184835

do you get one full cycle per day out of your batteries at home? is $0.35 too low for your installation?

Per day is irrelevant… but at the moment I am cycling my system from 100% to 10% and averaging $12 a day credit… about $10 a day after day rate and Amber subscription.

I’ll do the numbers for the 5th time…
$16000/19.2=$833.33 per kWh

$833/4000cycles =$0.21 cents

So I’ve got no idea how you can come up with higher costs for large scale commercial batteries.

 

[nut]

to help you out

View attachment 2184816

You are the one who needs help… those figure are exactly the same as mine….

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So the catastrophe wasn’t Martian- made.. sure I see the difference

You really don't understand our existence.
We're like a bunch of tadpoles living in a deep puddle on the edge of a freeway.


We just happen to live in a world with oxygen and water.
Its pure luck that all the water isn't frozen, and the oxygen is mixed in an atmosphere we can breathe.
The planet has changed temperature a lot, but freakishly it has remained fairly constant for maybe 10 000 years, during which our civilization has happened.

Add infinite planets in existence , and there is plenty of life elsewhere. But it was never Mars and your discussion of mars is totally irrelevant to the current discussion.

 

[Power Raid]

Per day is irrelevant… but at the moment I am cycling my system from 100% to 10% and averaging $12 a day credit… about $10 a day after day rate and Amber subscription.

I’ll do the numbers for the 5th time…
$16000/19.2=$833.33 per kWh

$833/4000cycles =$0.21 cents

So I’ve got no idea how you can come up with higher costs for large scale commercial batteries.

1) you are referring to an arbitrage rather than a cost These are very different concepts.
2) home use you come up with $0.21 whilst the installers come up with $0.35 but regardless both numbers are in line with the $0.24 to $0.40 range I presented
3) The commercial scale has the advantage of subsidies, scale and optimisation (regular tweaks to the control system and pull in pull out) but have the cost of land, buildings, EPC, finance, lawyers, operators, insurance, permits and the holding costs awaiting connection (especially if connected to the grid). I travelled through China with BESS operators globally (Oz, SAfr, Israel, US, EU etc) including to CATL and they all said $0.24 to $0.40. Remember commercial scale is just more of the little cells that make up your unit.

I agree batteries are improving and solid state will be the giant leap required as this not only = better performance but as I understand means no PFAS.

 

[peetoo]

You really don't understand our existence.
We're like a bunch of tadpoles living in a deep puddle on the edge of a freeway.


We just happen to live in a world with oxygen and water.
Its pure luck that all the water isn't frozen, and the oxygen is mixed in an atmosphere we can breathe.
The planet has changed temperature a lot, but freakishly it has remained fairly constant for maybe 10 000 years, during which our civilization has happened.

Add infinite planets in existence , and there is plenty of life elsewhere. But it was never Mars and your discussion of mars is totally irrelevant to the current discussion.

Thanks for the tips o great one.

Who mentioned life?

 

[nut]

1) you are referring to an arbitrage rather than a cost These are very different concepts.
2) home use you come up with $0.21 whilst the installers come up with $0.35 but regardless both numbers are in line with the $0.24 to $0.40 range I presented
3) The commercial scale has the advantage of subsidies, scale and optimisation (regular tweaks to the control system and pull in pull out) but have the cost of land, buildings, EPC, finance, lawyers, operators, insurance, permits and the holding costs awaiting connection (especially if connected to the grid). I travelled through China with BESS operators globally (Oz, SAfr, Israel, US, EU etc) including to CATL and they all said $0.24 to $0.40. Remember commercial scale is just more of the little cells that make up your unit.

I agree batteries are improving and solid state will be the giant leap required as this not only = better performance but as I understand means no PFAS.

So my home battery is cheaper than large scale… rightio. According to you and your mates…
Yet Gencost and lazards have firm renewables… Solar and battery together at under $200 a megawatt …
Please just stop.

 

[nut]

1) you are referring to an arbitrage rather than a cost These are very different concepts.

I have access to 19.2KWH 4000 times ..
which is 76800KWH … I’ve paid upfront for those.
It cost me $16000.

My total system cost $30,000 which includes 15kw of solar and the 19.2KWH battery.
It’s saving me at least $4500 in power bills per year… and im on target to make $1200 credit in the first 12 months …
$30000/5700=5.26 years

 

[Power Raid]

So my home battery is cheaper than large scale… rightio. According to you and your mates…
Yet Gencost and lazards have firm renewables… Solar and battery together at under $200 a megawatt …
Please just stop.

View attachment 2184859

with firming includes gas AND only for a "committed period of time" which may just mean seconds. so completely irrelevant to the debate at hand.

and are these numbers from the Gencost Report you posted links to discrediting?

 

[nut]

with firming includes gas

and are these numbers from the Gencost Report you posted links to discrediting?

Firming is STORAGE !!!!! seriously are you being deliberately stupid?

 

[Power Raid]

Firming is STORAGE !!!!! seriously are you being deliberately stupid?

no it doesn't

firming means delivering for a committed period of time which may mean just seconds and may be fulfilled by gas, batteries, portfolio, coal etc etc

you should do a little more research. The foundations of your opinions needs a little more support.

I appreciate there is lots of misinformation in the sector, especially if your understanding comes from youtube.