The war against renewable energy

[nut]

If the factory where i work was to want storage for 12 hours , it would cost us $600 000 Dollars if we wanted to work all night.
They can buy the same amount of power from the grid for $120
It would take us 14 years to pay for it at which point it would be operating at a much reduced capacity.
This would not be considered an economic decision by most commercial companies, NOT CHEAP. Just NOT CHEAP.

So the factory is using 1200KWH a night … @10cents. That’s a great price. If I could get that price I wouldn’t have got a battery.
I’m assuming 1200kw battery… the mistake is having a battery only covering usage. If the factory added solar to replenish the battery and supply power during the day and also added 50% to the battery size.. they could export excess solar and battery capacity to the grid.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

So the factory is using 1200KWH a night … @10cents. That’s a great price. If I could get that price I wouldn’t have got a battery.
I’m assuming 1200kw battery… the mistake is having a battery only covering usage. If the factory added solar to replenish the battery and supply power during the day and also added 50% to the battery size.. they could export excess solar and battery capacity to the grid.

You'd need a 16,800KW battery to supply 1,200KW over 14 hours at night and before you can start charging from the solar.

Then you'd need 3,500KW of solar to recharge that battery in 8 hours and provide power to run the plant - 2,100KW for the battery and 1,200 for the plant. That assume 100% efficiency. Double that to account for variable weather, so you need 7,000KW of solar panels - that's 10,000 industrial panels.

But, if you add 50% to the battery - wow...we're talking about a 24,000KW battery.

 

[nut]

You'd need a 16,800KW battery to supply 1,200KW over 14 hours at night and before you can start charging from the solar.

Then you'd need 3,500KW of solar to recharge that battery in 8 hours and provide power to run the plant - 2,100KW for the battery and 1,200 for the plant. That assume 100% efficiency. Double that to account for variable weather, so you need 7,000KW of solar panels - that's 10,000 industrial panels.

But, if you add 50% to the battery - wow...we're talking about a 24,000KW battery.

I think you misunderstood..

His factory only uses 1200kwh a night. So it only needs a 1200kwh battery.

$600,000 for the battery he said @$500 a KWH = 1200 … over 12 hours is 100kw an hour.

Battery packs are dropping in price .., $480,000 would be break even if they continued to pay 10c a KWH. That’s $400 per KWH of battery storage…

If I was designing a solar and battery system for his factory I’d roughy have 400kw
of solar and a 2000kwh battery.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think you misunderstood..

His factory only uses 1200kwh a night. So it only needs a 1200kwh battery.

$600,000 for the battery he said @$500 a KWH = 1200 … over 12 hours is 100kw an hour.

Battery packs are dropping in price .., $480,000 would be break even if they continued to pay 10c a KWH. That’s $400 per KWH of battery storage…

If I was designing a solar and battery system for his factory I’d roughy have 400kw
of solar and a 2000kwh battery.

In real life we only operate an extended day shift. A 100kw solar array in Victoria should halve our electricity purchasing.
( Which is what i'm pushing for ).

A 200kw array would need storage to be useful.
Unfortunately we're too small to access those best available $500/kw hour systems. ( The kind of prices "big battery" builders get ).

Enough solar to be helpful is cheap.

Trying to increase from that 50% to 100% gets progressively more expensive as you need more and more panels and battery. ( We run out of roof space at 250ish Kw ).

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Agreed, the other problem we have is the emission intensive methods to extract all the materials to get it all to scale.

Can anyone in here point out how far the projection of sodium batteries? Wouldn't these better coz without the chems associated with lithium batteries?

I'm a bit of a novice here, actually far from that even, interested in the conversation though.

Not convinced we have the tech or materials to build renewables to scale - yet.

Gonna fairly speculate............

-Concrete for windfarms - emission intensive
-Infrastructure - intrusive on the environment.
-Mining for materials - emission intensive.

But we gotta start somewhere.

It seems the sodium is pretty close for fixed place ( Grid and Home ) storage.
Due to lower energy density its not ready for car use yet.
Most people wouldn't really care if the battery in their garage was a bit bigger and heavier.

BYD launches sodium-ion grid-scale BESS product

BYD has launched what it claimed is the 'world's first high-performance' sodium-ion BESS product, using its Long Blade Battery cell.

www.energy-storage.news

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

I think you misunderstood..

His factory only uses 1200kwh a night. So it only needs a 1200kwh battery.

$600,000 for the battery he said @$500 a KWH = 1200 … over 12 hours is 100kw an hour.

Battery packs are dropping in price .., $480,000 would be break even if they continued to pay 10c a KWH. That’s $400 per KWH of battery storage…

If I was designing a solar and battery system for his factory I’d roughy have 400kw
of solar and a 2000kwh battery.

You're right, I did misread the usage.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

In real life we only operate an extended day shift. A 100kw solar array in Victoria should halve our electricity purchasing.
( Which is what i'm pushing for ).

A 200kw array would need storage to be useful.
Unfortunately we're too small to access those best available $500/kw hour systems. ( The kind of prices "big battery" builders get ).

Enough solar to be helpful is cheap.

Trying to increase from that 50% to 100% gets progressively more expensive as you need more and more panels and battery. ( We run out of roof space at 250ish Kw ).

Why are you even considering this when you're paying 10c KWh?

The capital cost of solar is better invested elsewhere - even giving staff a small pay rise to deal with cost of living.

 

[nut]

Why are you even considering this when you're paying 10c KWh?

The capital cost of solar is better invested elsewhere - even giving staff a small pay rise to deal with cost of living.

The break even price is 15c a kWh for a $600,000 1200kwh batter … So it’s getting close.
Just need battery packs to drop more.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Why are you even considering this when you're paying 10c KWh?

The capital cost of solar is better invested elsewhere - even giving staff a small pay rise to deal with cost of living.

Corporate demand to reduce CO2.
Water use is there too and that's incredibly hard to do economically.

Also i forgot that there are some network charges that will reduce with less electricity purchased from the grid.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The break even price is 15c a kWh for a $600,000 1200kwh batter … So it’s getting close.
Just need battery packs to drop more.

We'd want breakeven far quicker than that to get the capital.

 

[nut]

We'd want breakeven far quicker than that to get the capital.

@10c a KWH I agree…
Battery pack costs are predicted to continue to fall and night time rates will start to rise over the next 5-10 years.

 

[nut]

A 60kw home battery on wheels for $27k ….

At this price, this EV is effectively a mobile battery with a free car thrown in

The GWM Ora extended range is being offered for $26,490 drive away with a 63kWh LFP battery - that’s $420/kWh for the battery with the rest of the car thrown in for free.

thedriven.io

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

A 60kw home battery on wheels for $27k ….

At this price, this EV is effectively a mobile battery with a free car thrown in

The GWM Ora extended range is being offered for $26,490 drive away with a 63kWh LFP battery - that’s $420/kWh for the battery with the rest of the car thrown in for free.

thedriven.io

With an NMC battery, it might only has 1,000 or at best 2,000 cycles. Plus the higher risk of thermal runaway, it's probably not great idea for a home battery

 

[peetoo]

With an NMC battery, it might only has 1,000 or at best 2,000 cycles. Plus the higher risk of thermal runaway, it's probably not great idea for a home battery

Worth a look for people who only run the car occasionally. Don’t do enough km for savings over ice car

 

[nut]

With an NMC battery, it might only has 1,000 or at best 2,000 cycles. Plus the higher risk of thermal runaway, it's probably not great idea for a home battery

I’m not great fan of NMC batteries either but how many Tesla powerwall 2s have had thermal runaways or fires? If it is such a high risk?

 

[nut]

EV sales down according to Murdoch media …

But what’s actually happening

Global EV Sales Shatter Records In November Thanks To China's Unstoppable Growth | Carscoops

The Chinese market accounts for over 70% of global EV sales year-to-date in 2024, while North America’s sales have grown by 10%

www.carscoops.com

 

[SaintsSeptember]

EV sales down according to Murdoch media …

But what’s actually happening

Global EV Sales Shatter Records In November Thanks To China's Unstoppable Growth | Carscoops

The Chinese market accounts for over 70% of global EV sales year-to-date in 2024, while North America’s sales have grown by 10%

www.carscoops.com

Reporting always lags a lot in Australia, and MG4 may have made a difference, but here's Australia mid year.
Big utes, 2 and a half tonnes of them with 6 cylinder engines, largely used for commuting and grocery shopping.

Top 100 new cars sold in Australia so far in 2024: Ford Ranger leads Toyota HiLux and RAV4 - Car News

We’re already halfway through 2024 and it is shaping up to be a record year for new-car sales as the car industry bounces back from supply restrictions. June may have shown a sales dip compared to 12 months ago but this year remains ahead of 2023 by 8.7 per cent, with 632,412 new cars registered...

www.carsguide.com.au

 

[nut]

Reporting always lags a lot in Australia, and MG4 may have made a difference, but here's Australia mid year.
Big utes, 2 and a half tonnes of them with 6 cylinder engines, largely used for commuting and grocery shopping.

Top 100 new cars sold in Australia so far in 2024: Ford Ranger leads Toyota HiLux and RAV4 - Car News

We’re already halfway through 2024 and it is shaping up to be a record year for new-car sales as the car industry bounces back from supply restrictions. June may have shown a sales dip compared to 12 months ago but this year remains ahead of 2023 by 8.7 per cent, with 632,412 new cars registered...

www.carsguide.com.au

I’m not a fan of hybrids but with a 30kw battery the BYD shark will offer the majority of tradies etc… an alternative to pure ICE with 100km range on battery and it is about to hit those numbers hard.

BYD Shark 6 ute approaches 4000 orders in Australia, deliveries now expected in 2025

The Chinese carmaker said Shark 6 ute deliveries are expected to start in late January 2025.

www.drive.com.au

Solid state batteries have half the weight of current EV batteries… hybrids will be dead with in 4-5 years imo.

 

[nut]

Another patrol truck on fire on Hume hwy Friday.

https://www.mansfieldcourier.com.au/truck-fire-closes-hume-freeway-northbound-lanes

 

[Power Raid]

Another great story on how battery storage is helping the grid…

Battery storage grabs growing share of peak supply in world's most renewable grid | RenewEconomy

Battery storage is gaining a growing share of the peak demand market, edging out traditional gas generators, as market rule maker lifts market price cap to ensure more is built.

reneweconomy.com.au

Yes batteries can do $0.05kWh, that’s why a $22,800kWh is needed

Otherwise than that, I agree with the sentiment but add this technology needs to improve or find itself obsolete due to cost and the PFAS

 

[Power Raid]

My sun tax

View attachment 2185359

Your gain is societies loss

That’s clearly a symptom of the burden of unreliable power

 

[nut]

Your gain is societies loss

why? I’ve added power to the grid when it needed it and took profit from unreliable fossil fuels. More batteries discharging at peak times is bring the wholesale price down.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I’m not a fan of hybrids but with a 30kw battery the BYD shark will offer the majority of tradies etc… an alternative to pure ICE with 100km range on battery and it is about to hit those numbers hard.

BYD Shark 6 ute approaches 4000 orders in Australia, deliveries now expected in 2025

The Chinese carmaker said Shark 6 ute deliveries are expected to start in late January 2025.

www.drive.com.au

Solid state batteries have half the weight of current EV batteries… hybrids will be dead with in 4-5 years imo.

Yep.

BYD seem to make some nice vehicles.
Plug in hybrids give a lot of versatility.
Other hybrids , like the Toyota's are really just an IC engine with a more efficient drive train.

 

[nut]

Ev sales snow balling in Aus… 10% of sales now.

EV sales reach new highs in Australia, making up nearly 10% of car market

Report by EV Council expects popularity to double by 2026 due to influx of cheaper electric vehicle models and increased number of charging stations

www.theguardian.com

 

[nut]

again you don't understand what you are representing

a fuel or electrical fire on a combustion engine is not the same as a METAL FIRE from a battery. In risk management systems one looks at likelihood (as you have done) but also measure the risk if it occurs.

A metal fire is a complete other level in terms of outcome and even the ability to manage.




and zero cars catching fire whilst recharging. Wow, MinRes and their insurers must be confused.

Just scaremongering

“The Australian Building Codes Board, the EV Council and EV fire-safety experts broadly agree that EVs are no more likely to catch fire than petrol or diesel cars.”

EVs in apartment carparks a battleground amid fight over right to charge

Strata owners are increasingly banning electric vehicles from charging in basement carparks as fire safety authorities disagree over the risk of battery fires.

www.abc.net.au