The war against renewable energy

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Power Raid said:
no it doesn't

firming means delivering for a committed period of time which may mean just seconds and may be fulfilled by gas, batteries, portfolio, coal etc etc

you should do a little more research. The foundations of your opinions needs a little more support.

I appreciate there is lots of misinformation in the sector, especially if your understanding comes from youtube.
Click to expand...

The costing of solar and wind with firming does not include gas in the Gencost report.it includes battery storage!!!! the only person sprouting misinformation is you.

We are discussing cost.

Will gas be used in the transition to 100% renewables yes… please dont post BS.

FMD

reneweconomy.com.au

CSIRO GenCost: Falling costs of solar and batteries confirm integrated renewables are cheapest option

Latest CSIRO GenCost report confirms integrated renewables – including storage and transmission – easily the cheapest option for Australia.
reneweconomy.com.au reneweconomy.com.au
 
nut said:
The costing of solar and wind with firming does not include gas in the Gencost report.it includes battery storage!!!! the only person sprouting misinformation is you.

We are discussing cost.

Will gas be used in the transition to 100% renewables yes… please dont post BS.

FMD

reneweconomy.com.au

CSIRO GenCost: Falling costs of solar and batteries confirm integrated renewables are cheapest option

Latest CSIRO GenCost report confirms integrated renewables – including storage and transmission – easily the cheapest option for Australia.
reneweconomy.com.au reneweconomy.com.au
Click to expand...

would you kindly quote the section supporting your claim?

1733750367165.png


AND - note conventional generators below


1733750580440.png
 
Last edited:
Power Raid said:
would you kindly quote the section supporting your claim?

View attachment 2184903


AND - note conventional generators below


View attachment 2184904
Click to expand...

You are a lost cause …. Those are not from the Gencost report and how they calculated the cost of Solar and wind with firming.
You are the one marking the claim …. Show me in the report where it says it uses fossil fuels for firming when calculating renewables…. How stupid could you be.

 

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nut said:
You are a lost cause …. Those are not from the Gencost report and how they calculated the cost of Solar and wind with firming.
You are the one marking the claim …. Show me in the report where it says it uses fossil fuels for firming when calculating renewables…. How stupid could you be.

Click to expand...

Lol

You argument is "the CSIRO which have published their definition which includes gas and coal" and then link me with a report that has no definition of firming and then claim "prove it" that firming does not include gas and coal.

I have proved it, I posted you the CSIRO's definition. Here is their definition again

1733785634892.png


Here are some of the options for firming


1733785674488.png





Further in your mind firming means reliable power but it may be just seconds or minutes which hardly stacks up for real world needs.


Please be reasonable if for no other reason but your own reputation and integrity
 
Power Raid said:
Lol

You argument is "the CSIRO which have published their definition which includes gas and coal" and then link me with a report that has no definition of firming and then claim "prove it" that firming does not include gas and coal.

I have proved it, I posted you the CSIRO's definition. Here is their definition again

View attachment 2185005


Here are some of the options for firming


View attachment 2185006





Further in your mind firming means reliable power but it may be just seconds or minutes which hardly stacks up for real world needs.


Please be reasonable if for no other reason but your own reputation and integrity
Click to expand...

“Firming’ or integration costs of variable renewables
In this report, where we make a comparison between the costs of variable renewables such as
solar PV and wind and the costs of other technologies we include the cost of firming those
renewables which we call integration costs. These are the additional costs of ensuring supply is
reliable when using intermittent energy sources. These integration costs are itemised in the report
and include storage, transmission, system security and spilled energy.”




Gencost CREATED the report not the CSIRO …
Does gas firm up renewable… presently yes

Does the cost of firm renewables include the cost of gas in the Gencost report .. no
It’s not a hard concept …

We do however have a choice to make… the requirement to have Firm renewables to cover days of poor generation compared to topping up with gas .. in the long term ..this needs to be discussed.
 
Power Raid said:
Lol

You argument is "the CSIRO which have published their definition which includes gas and coal" and then link me with a report that has no definition of firming and then claim "prove it" that firming does not include gas and coal.

I have proved it, I posted you the CSIRO's definition. Here is their definition again

View attachment 2185005


Here are some of the options for firming


View attachment 2185006





Further in your mind firming means reliable power but it may be just seconds or minutes which hardly stacks up for real world needs.


Please be reasonable if for no other reason but your own reputation and integrity
Click to expand...
So according to you … we need to add the entire cost of Hydro to the cost of Solar, Wind and firming because it also helps firm up renewables… disingenuous is what your are.
 
PiCkLeJuiCe said:
Lets put cost and profit to one side and focus on the environmental impact, specifically, as you point out, the amount of CO2 produced per energy source. If we are serious about stopping global warming, then we need to go wind and nuclear. They have the lowest gCO2/KWh.

Wind 11g
Nuclear 12g
Tidal 22g
Hydropower 24g
Solar Energy 41g
Biomass 230g
Natural Gas 450g
Coal 910g
Click to expand...

Lets nationalise the electricity industry then.
Otherwise its all cost and profit.

We need an absolute glut of Solar and Wind.
Given that by the time i build one, there are already heaps of others, how do i propose to pay back my investment. When its sunny , my electricity is worth not much. So i ( and all the other solar generators ) can only make real money on those transitional times or overcast conditions when there is not enough.

Its like buying an ice cream stand at the beach when there are already 100, and the beach is attracting around 200 people.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Lets nationalise the electricity industry then.
Otherwise its all cost and profit.

We need an absolute glut of Solar and Wind.
Given that by the time i build one, there are already heaps of others, how do i propose to pay back my investment. When its sunny , my electricity is worth not much. So i ( and all the other solar generators ) can only make real money on those transitional times or overcast conditions when there is not enough.

Its like buying an ice cream stand at the beach when there are already 100, and the beach is attracting around 200 people.
Click to expand...

Wasn’t one of your previous arguments that people in units can’t install solar?

You can sell electricity to them.

Anyways, it’s obvious you aren’t looking for solutions. Negative Nancy etc.
 

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I'll do my own CSRIO thingy without the benefit of months of procrastination and the huge paycheck.

According to this. ( which is probably on the optimistic side but oh well ).
Cost of a Solar Farm is US$48 per MWH, so AU $75 /MWH.
reneweconomy.com.au

Building new solar now cheaper than keeping existing coal plants open: BNEF

Plunging costs of solar could prompt coal plants in India, China and much of Europe to be shutdown early, delivering another blow to Australia’s huge thermal coal export industry.
reneweconomy.com.au reneweconomy.com.au

The little dot by the CSRIO has "firmed " solar at a maximum of $100 per MWH.
So they've allowed $25/MWH for "firming"

So lets add a future battery that costs half what it costs now, lets say $250/kwh. ( lowest current price i've seen quoted is $500/kwh ).
That gives us a massive 6 minutes of "firming".
If the sun sets at 7pm, lights are out by 7:06.

SOOOOOO.

If you actually want a working power supply , on a still night, you need to include a huge cost of dams or batteries.
Nut, this is what you constantly ignore.

Have i made a mistake in my calculations?
 
Ghost Patrol said:
Wasn’t one of your previous arguments that people in units can’t install solar?

You can sell electricity to them.

Anyways, it’s obvious you aren’t looking for solutions. Negative Nancy etc.
Click to expand...

Do you understand anything about Supply/Demand and selling prices?

Yeah negative Nancy for not ignoring reality.
Play the band , sing a few songs, maybe the titanic won't sink, hate to be negative.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Do you understand anything about Supply/Demand and selling prices?

Yeah negative Nancy for not ignoring reality.
Play the band , sing a few songs, maybe the titanic won't sink, hate to be negative.
Click to expand...

Didn’t the titanic sink because the captain steamed full ahead on coal, despite warnings?
 
SaintsSeptember said:
I'll do my own CSRIO thingy without the benefit of months of procrastination and the huge paycheck.

According to this. ( which is probably on the optimistic side but oh well ).
Cost of a Solar Farm is US$48 per MWH, so AU $75 /MWH.
reneweconomy.com.au

Building new solar now cheaper than keeping existing coal plants open: BNEF

Plunging costs of solar could prompt coal plants in India, China and much of Europe to be shutdown early, delivering another blow to Australia’s huge thermal coal export industry.
reneweconomy.com.au reneweconomy.com.au

The little dot by the CSRIO has "firmed " solar at a maximum of $100 per MWH.
So they've allowed $25/MWH for "firming"

So lets add a future battery that costs half what it costs now, lets say $250/kwh. ( lowest current price i've seen quoted is $500/kwh ).
That gives us a massive 6 minutes of "firming".
If the sun sets at 7pm, lights are out by 7:06.

SOOOOOO.

If you actually want a working power supply , on a still night, you need to include a huge cost of dams or batteries.
Nut, this is what you constantly ignore.

Have i made a mistake in my calculations?
Click to expand...



I’m not sure how you came up with 6 minutes.

Yes you need a lot of solar and wind if you want to be 100% renewables.

Let’s take my system in isolation.
I’ve over compensated massively with solar 15kw .. it will produce 250% more power than I will use on average. Some of that excess will go into the grid, but a lot will be lost to curtailment.
But I wanted to be able to produce power on overcast days… and it still does. My worst solar days this year were the 9-10th July and I still produced 17kw of power on the 10th. I used electric heating on these days and drew minimal from the grid.. about 4-5KW…
The extra investment I made probably wasn’t worth it on paper.. best ROI is to try and match consumption as close as possible. But I took a calculated risk and went big.. selling back excess power to grid.
I worked out my ROI was 7 years with out any feed in credit. Now with data behind me and factoring in feed in, I’m looking at ROI better than going small.

19kwh battery gives me more than 6 minutes.. 95% of the time it lasts all night. I could go off grid if I wanted to, if I went with out heating 2-3 nights a year where I live (misses might complain).

It’s all about excess solar and enough storage.
Now if I was able to have wind on those cold nights and some hydro I’d be all good.

My home situation wouldn't be much different to the national grid…you just need to do the numbers…. And having lived with just 1 source of renewables with storage (which has black out protection) I can see how it can work, as silly as that sounds.

Solar is cheap
Storage is cheap
Wind is cheap
Hydro is cheap
Pumped hydro is cheap back up power.
 
Last edited:
nut said:
I’m not sure how you came up with 6 minutes.

Yes you need a lot of solar and wind if you want to be 100% renewables.

Let’s take my system in isolation.
I’ve over compensated massively with solar 15kw .. it will produce 250% more power than I will use on average. Some of that excess will go into the grid, but a lot will be lost to curtailment.
But I wanted to be able to produce power on overcast days… and it still does. My worst solar days this year were the 9-10th July and I still produced 17kw of power on the 10th. I used electric heating on these days and drew minimal from the grid.. about 4-5KW…
The extra investment I made probably wasn’t worth it on paper.. best ROI is to try and match consumption as close as possible. But I took a calculated risk and went big.. selling back excess power to grid.
I worked out my ROI was 7 years with out any feed in credit. Now with data behind me and factoring in feed in, I’m looking at ROI better than going small.

19kwh battery gives me more than 6 minutes.. 95% of the time it lasts all night. I could go off grid if I wanted to, if I went with out heating 2-3 nights a year where I live (misses might complain).

It’s all about excess solar and enough storage.
Now if I was able to have wind on those cold nights and some hydro I’d be all good.

My home situation wouldn't be much different to the national grid…you just need to do the numbers…. And having lived with just 1 source of renewables with storage (which has black out protection) I can see how it can work, as silly as that sounds.

Solar is cheap
Storage is cheap
Wind is cheap
Hydro is cheap
Pumped hydro is cheap back up power.
Click to expand...

Solar is cheap. Yes, give you that.
Storage is cheap. FALSE. Storage costs $500/kwh if you get a great deal.
If the factory where i work was to want storage for 12 hours , it would cost us $600 000 Dollars if we wanted to work all night.
They can buy the same amount of power from the grid for $120
It would take us 14 years to pay for it at which point it would be operating at a much reduced capacity.
This would not be considered an economic decision by most commercial companies, NOT CHEAP. Just NOT CHEAP.

Wind is cheap, but only for commercial wind farms. Its problematic for small operators.

Hydro is only cheap when you have already built your Dam.

Pumped hydro is storage , like a battery. Its not cheap. Snowy II ( using existing dams ) 12 Billion.
Start from scratch from a Greenfields site, and its up there with Nuclear.
 
nut said:
I’m not sure how you came up with 6 minutes.

Yes you need a lot of solar and wind if you want to be 100% renewables.

Let’s take my system in isolation.
I’ve over compensated massively with solar 15kw .. it will produce 250% more power than I will use on average. Some of that excess will go into the grid, but a lot will be lost to curtailment.
But I wanted to be able to produce power on overcast days… and it still does. My worst solar days this year were the 9-10th July and I still produced 17kw of power on the 10th. I used electric heating on these days and drew minimal from the grid.. about 4-5KW…
The extra investment I made probably wasn’t worth it on paper.. best ROI is to try and match consumption as close as possible. But I took a calculated risk and went big.. selling back excess power to grid.
I worked out my ROI was 7 years with out any feed in credit. Now with data behind me and factoring in feed in, I’m looking at ROI better than going small.

19kwh battery gives me more than 6 minutes.. 95% of the time it lasts all night. I could go off grid if I wanted to, if I went with out heating 2-3 nights a year where I live (misses might complain).

It’s all about excess solar and enough storage.
Now if I was able to have wind on those cold nights and some hydro I’d be all good.

My home situation wouldn't be much different to the national grid…you just need to do the numbers…. And having lived with just 1 source of renewables with storage (which has black out protection) I can see how it can work, as silly as that sounds.

Solar is cheap
Storage is cheap
Wind is cheap
Hydro is cheap
Pumped hydro is cheap back up power.
Click to expand...

The CSRIO suggested that Solar with Firming would cost around $100 per KWH. Since the lowest costs for Solar without firming are around $75 per KWH , the CSRIO have only allowed $25 per KWH for firming.
The amount of LiIon battery you can get for $25/kwh is around 6 minutes ( Allowing $250 /kwh , that's $250/60KWminutes = $25/6 kw minutes . At the moment you won't get battery for less than $500/kwh.
 
nut said:
It’s happening .. but we are 10 years behind where we could be thanks to the LNP and the fossil fuel lobby.

View attachment 2185040
Click to expand...
Agreed, the other problem we have is the emission intensive methods to extract all the materials to get it all to scale.

Can anyone in here point out how far the projection of sodium batteries? Wouldn't these better coz without the chems associated with lithium batteries?

I'm a bit of a novice here, actually far from that even, interested in the conversation though.

Not convinced we have the tech or materials to build renewables to scale - yet.

Gonna fairly speculate............

-Concrete for windfarms - emission intensive
-Infrastructure - intrusive on the environment.
-Mining for materials - emission intensive.

But we gotta start somewhere.
 
nut said:
“Firming’ or integration costs of variable renewables
In this report, where we make a comparison between the costs of variable renewables such as
solar PV and wind and the costs of other technologies we include the cost of firming those
renewables which we call integration costs. These are the additional costs of ensuring supply is
reliable when using intermittent energy sources. These integration costs are itemised in the report
and include storage, transmission, system security and spilled energy.”




Gencost CREATED the report not the CSIRO …
Does gas firm up renewable… presently yes

Does the cost of firm renewables include the cost of gas in the Gencost report .. no
It’s not a hard concept …

We do however have a choice to make… the requirement to have Firm renewables to cover days of poor generation compared to topping up with gas .. in the long term ..this needs to be discussed.
Click to expand...

yes the word include is important and consistent with the information I presented

1733816413324.png

firming also includes conventional generators which includes coal and gas
 
nut said:
It’s happening .. but we are 10 years behind where we could be thanks to the LNP and the fossil fuel lobby.

View attachment 2185040
Click to expand...

yes yes we are ten years behind despite as you claim, 2 years into a journey. does that add up.

further given there is no jurisdiction on the planet with clean energy based on solar and wind, are you suggesting we should have adopted a technology that works such as hydro or nuclear?

or would you prefer to wait until the technology develops providing new pathways to clean energy?

PS 6GW equals around 15 minutes
 

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The war against renewable energy

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