Opinion The Way Forward

[Andyy1]

I know we’ve all got our own opinions, who knows what’s right in the end, but here’s my two cents:

• Longmire needs to move on. He’s had his time, has some positives but I genuinely can’t see us winning another GF with him at the helm. As much as I like Cox and his passion, I think we need an outsider.
• No more three tall forwards, Amartey has to go. Although McLean hasn’t been great, he offers more than Joel.
• Logan McDonald has to play full forward, non negotiable.
• If it looks like Chad will go in the near future, move him on and maximise value.
• Sheldrick and Cleary need game time, otherwise it’s pointless having them.
• Have everyone on the table. We have some talented players on the books, but where do they go when it mattered in the biggest game? They disappear.
• Recruitment: Trading has to be maximised, rather than focusing on the draft. Have we built a good team through the draft? Sure. But none of them have that steel, leadership or mental strength to take a hold in a GF.

Could say a lot more, but it’s turning into a long list.

 

[Andyy1]

Agree - can we though get him to be the loose man behind the ball?

I feel he doesn’t have the strength and technique to mark a KPF and doesn’t have the smarts and concentration for the mediums and smalls.

I’d like to see him in an Aliir / Andrew’s role where he is given freedom to be less accountable. To do this though, we would need to tighten the rest of our defence and probably lose one of the ‘midfielder backs’ (eg. Florent, Roberts).

Immediately strengthens our side if done.

 

[The King!]

Can you actually think of Joel Amartey as a premiership player?

Or Florent? Or Hayward?

Sure

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Reflecting deeper on Logan, I’m not sure modern footy has space in the forward line for the Gunston 2nd / 3rd tall role anymore. You either need to be able or clunk a big mark or be lightning quick and dynamic when the ball hits the ground.

So my question is whether Logan will be a perennial tease for a KPF role. I suggested earlier this year that I thought an argument could be made that Amartey and McLean were more important structurally than Logan, and so if one tall needed to make way it could be Logan (even though in many respects he is the most talented).

Still not sure how I feel about all this, but it does get me intrigued about training Logan with the backs in the off season. He might be a better defender who can occasionally swing forward than he will ever be a KPF. To me there are some serious Sam Reid

20

Sam Reid

Age

32

Ht

196cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

6.3

2star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.7

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

12.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

6.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

0.0

1star

G

1.0

4star

D

9.4

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.8

4star

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0.4

3star

vibes. And I think his mentality seems to be more like that of a defender.

Or to put it really starkly, would I be more confident with Stringer up forward or Logan? I think I lean Stringer (if he can get back to fitness) but would really really like to be wrong.

 

[mcs095]

Two words I would love to see in big red and white text in the locker rooms:

• Ruthless
• Relentless

I'd add to this 'Redemption'.

None of this 'we will try to be there again' shit. Recognise what they owe to themselves, to the club and to the fans for what has happened in 2022 and 2024.

The only way this list and this playing group can remove the massive stink and stigma sitting around our club is to go the whole way, and achieve redemption. It probably won't happen in 2025 - history suggests we won't get close. But that should be burnt into every players mind when they walk into those change rooms. The failure of 2022 and 2024 can't be made up for in any reasonable form without achieving redemption.

 

[mcs095]

I think it's as simple as your home ground. While having a uniquely sized home ground can be a big asset during the H & A season, it can create problems in finals. WCE went through it while playing at the long but fairly narrow Subiaco. We had trouble winning on the wide expanses of the MCG. In 2015, we belted Hawks in the first final at Subi but got belted in the GF at the MCG. In 2017, we moved to Optus which is more MCG sized, and became a good away team culminating in the 2018 win. I've always said moving to Optus helped us win that.. I don't know where you'd move to but I reckon it would be a good move if you want to win GF's

I'm sick of hearing the bullshit excuse about ground shapes that too many hide behind in the AFL.

For good teams - it should never even be a thought. The only mantra needed is win any where, any time.

Its not like the MCG is particularly unique in its dimensions. Yes its wider than some other grounds, but not that much.

Its a piss weak excuse, rolled out far too often for mine. Yes you need to adjust game plans - but look across most seasons, and its pretty rare (unsurprising I know) outside of the occasional season won by MCG tenants that the Premiers don't win games across grounds of all shapes and sizes.

Sure

View attachment 2126282

View attachment 2126283

Closest this playing group will ever get to winning it if they can't solve their 'shitting bricks' approach to the big day.

 

[mcs095]

So my question is whether Logan will be a perennial tease for a KPF role. I suggested earlier this year that I thought an argument could be made that Amartey and McLean were more important structurally than Logan, and so if one tall needed to make way it could be Logan (even though in many respects he is the most talented).

If we must continue with 3 tall forwards, we need 2 of the 3 to probably get 33% better over the next one or two seasons, and one to probably get 50% better. I'm not talking about output etc here - but ability to impact games consistently. We go from what 7 or 8 goals in the prelim to nothing in the Grand Final.

I fear the ceiling for Amartey has already just about been reached, McLean will never be much more than an honest toiler, and McDonald will never quite reach his peak.

I tend to think we should pick 2 and go for it. If McLean is one of them (Which I think he will be - as we need a decent relief ruck in the side) - then we need to actively manage Grundy far better. Have him take more of the ruck duties, but actually be managed in some games across the season, and have whoever the backup ruck in the squad is play more than an odd game here and there.

I really fear we will never get enough out of those 3 big talls - but equally, I think we aren't anywhere near right with our mix of players around them either. Good teams simply waltz it out at ease against us now when they are on top - the pressure simply isn't there.

Replacing Parker with someone with leg speed like a Cleary or Wicks is a starting point (I'd go the former) is a first step.

 

[Tedeski]

Fagan apparently made the lions write down everything they were carrying in 23 and did a burning ceremony. Guess if they lose it looks dumb, but what did we do with 22.? Probably Watched the replay with Horse talking about a lack of pressure even though the prep was great

We would have celebrated the positives of the 22 loss.
We are all about being nice & not hurting feelings now & bring inclusive yadda yadda yadda & caring for your team mates.
The word toughness must not be spoken about at our club. I just don’t see toughness in our group.

 

[The King!]

We would have celebrated the positives of the 22 loss.
We are all about being nice & not hurting feelings now & bring inclusive yadda yadda yadda & caring for your team mates.
The word toughness must not be spoken about at our club. I just don’t see toughness in our group.

We don't bloody know because they are so insular and don't want to upset each other.

 

[Wazowski]

And according to champion data we had 4 of the top 6 players on the ground .

Sure statistically we won the clearances but surely your eyes were not looking at the game thinking we were even breaking even in the middle .

Who were the top 6?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[mcs095]

We would have celebrated the positives of the 22 loss.
We are all about being nice & not hurting feelings now & bring inclusive yadda yadda yadda & caring for your team mates.
The word toughness must not be spoken about at our club. I just don’t see toughness in our group.

The club has completely forgotten that you can in fact create a clear delineation between the public image of the club, and how it operates as a footy club largely behind closed doors.

The club does an amazing wealth of fantastic things off the park - we are a leader in that regard, and deserve a lot of credit for it. However, it does feel like we've let that seep into the footy side of things, and the toughness element has just wilted away.

There is no reason that maintaining both sides can not be done.

What we needed on Saturday was a leader on the park that stepped up and said 'no more' - maybe got in the face of one or two that made awful efforts early in that second quarter. Put them on the spot to make amends.

I always think of Brett Kirk giving it to Nick Davis on that famous night in 2005. This current squad are too busy giving each other bum taps after they concede a 5th or 6th goal in a row. Yes footy has changed and it isn't the 'tough' game in the same way it once was, but harsh truths still have their place, and a tough leader is something we are desperately calling out for.

 

[Downhill Skier]

Who were the top 6?

I know Fox , Rowbottom snd Grundy we’re 3 of the 4 but can’t remember who the other player was .

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Another aspect I think we need to consider is our leadership (long post warning).

I’ll say it so it can be said and we can move on, but making Mills sole captain for this year was a ludicrous decision. It resulted in Mills putting too much pressure on himself to get back from his first set of injuries, and then also to get back for the GF. I also don’t think Mills was ready to be a sole captain. I understand we weren’t sure if Parker and Rampe would be first 22 this year, but we could have selected a number of co-captains and been willing to drop a captain if needed. It’s not like Mills was on the field anyway…

For the future captain/s and leadership group, I think the club needs to take a fresh look and think about what it really values. I’ll be blunt, I think kindness has been over valued by the swans. Kindness has a place, but you need other values to win, which can sometimes come in contradiction: ruthlessness, relentless, accountability, transparency, etc.

I love and adore Rampe, but he is too kind - it becomes weakness. Someone had it right when they said he should have taken out Rayner on the left wing in the first quarter after he overcommitted for the spoil but didn’t get there in time. Sure, it would have been a free kick and even a possible suspension, but the Lions wouldn’t have scored a goal. He also appeared to get softer, not harder, as the players around him started to struggle.

I am also not sure it is fair to expect one person to exhibit all the values we need in just the balance at each moment. I think co-captains is a better idea. It also makes it clear who is leading if the captain gets injured or needs to be dropped. This “you can’t make the captain play reserves” business is a sign of sentimentality that winners cannot afford - you pick your best 23 to win the game, no matter what.

Based on this, who do I think should be in the leadership group? Well interestingly I first tried to see who is in the current leadership group as I couldn’t remember, but the only websites I could find had it that the group hadn’t been announced (only the sole captain. Was it ever announced? If not, not a great sign…

I did say I think there should be a clean slate anyway, so maybe best not to refer to the past. My thinking would be to keep it to five players:

• Mills (co-captain) - retains but shares captaincy. Really needs to focus on being a selfless leader though (another post likely to come on this subject, but to keep it brief for now, I have seen too many things that bring into question his leadership, however I also think it would be dis-stabilising to remove him from the captaincy and there must be a lot of great stuff I miss behind the scenes - and at least he got cranky when our performances were piss poor!)
• Rowbottom (co-captain) - he screams leader for me. I know some on here don’t think he has a presence, but I am pretty sure I read that his teammates say he is loud on the field and a real leader in organising the midfield. Plus he is the toughest and hardest player on our list, and he should be empowered to ruthlessly hold his teammates to his own high standards. He’ll need to learn to be less nice.
• Melican - he was the only back who looked like a leader to me during the GF. I have also always liked him as a player. I think he stands up with a sense of calm and he had his first clean year without injury, and it was very strong. I want the other defenders to want to be more like him. I think he will need to grow his broader game awareness but I think he has it in him, it will also make him a better player.
• Papley - should probably never be captain again, but can be a leader in his own unique way. He is our strongest competitor and other players should look to match him in this regard.
• Rampe - stays as the old sage and mentor to the younger players. Can wrap his arms around players when they need it, but shouldn’t be first seen on field as someone to let them know if they are meeting standards or not. We should be willing to drop him to reserves if he doesn’t make the grade.

Players considered by deliberately not selected:

• Gulden - needs to hear that he got well too far ahead of himself. He needs a year or burn and self development to support him on his long term aspiration of being captain, Goodes style.
• Parker - I am assuming he is off to North. If he stays, I think he plays mostly reserves. I think he sets high intensity standard, but he also does too many dumb things. Don’t want players seeking to replicate his style.
• Heeney - I think he plays best when he can focus on himself. The leaders need to actively monitor him and make sure he doesn’t push himself too hard. I have no idea why. No idea why, but I reckon Melican could be good for this - doesn’t have much to do with him on the field so could be more objective maybe. Or maybe Cox could just do his day job?
• Adams - he was vice-captain at Collingwood when they won the premiership, and I reckon he is one of those players they plays better when they have more responsibility. The reason for leaving him out is that it doesn’t appear like he took his demotion too well (very hard to tell though) and he will likely play a fair bit of reserves next year. I think we missed a trick but not putting him in the leadership group at the start of this year, but now it is too late.

I’ve gotta say, it was hard to find 5 players for the leadership group. We obviously have a young-ish list, but I remember back when we had 8 players and most of them selected themselves. Growing our leaders needs to be a big priority, but also drafting and trading need to value these qualities higher.

 

[WillHayward]

I do like this except Blakey covers up an awful lot of our inability to defend the bigger forwards one on one. It’s very often him that’s coming across to spoil the big lads who might be wrestling with mccartin. We don’t really have anyone else who can do this. I think we all agree that the rampe of 2016 isn’t coming back any time soon

But we've had years to do something about getting a bigger defender and done nothing. People.on this board keep telling me McCartin is a key defender.
He's not. He's a third defender.

 

[WillHayward]

Another aspect I think we need to consider is our leadership (long post warning).

I’ll say it so it can be said and we can move on, but making Mills sole captain for this year was a ludicrous decision. It resulted in Mills putting too much pressure on himself to get back from his first set of injuries, and then also to get back for the GF. I also don’t think Mills was ready to be a sole captain. I understand we weren’t sure if Parker and Rampe would be first 22 this year, but we could have selected a number of co-captains and been willing to drop a captain if needed. It’s not like Mills was on the field anyway…

For the future captain/s and leadership group, I think the club needs to take a fresh look and think about what it really values. I’ll be blunt, I think kindness has been over valued by the swans. Kindness has a place, but you need other values to win, which can sometimes come in contradiction: ruthlessness, relentless, accountability, transparency, etc.

I love and adore Rampe, but he is too kind - it becomes weakness. Someone had it right when they said he should have taken out Rayner on the left wing in the first quarter after he overcommitted for the spoil but didn’t get there in time. Sure, it would have been a free kick and even a possible suspension, but the Lions wouldn’t have scored a goal. He also appeared to get softer, not harder, as the players around him started to struggle.

I am also not sure it is fair to expect one person to exhibit all the values we need in just the balance at each moment. I think co-captains is a better idea. It also makes it clear who is leading if the captain gets injured or needs to be dropped. This “you can’t make the captain play reserves” business is a sign of sentimentality that winners cannot afford - you pick your best 23 to win the game, no matter what.

Based on this, who do I think should be in the leadership group? Well interestingly I first tried to see who is in the current leadership group as I couldn’t remember, but the only websites I could find had it that the group hadn’t been announced (only the sole captain. Was it ever announced? If not, not a great sign…

I did say I think there should be a clean slate anyway, so maybe best not to refer to the past. My thinking would be to keep it to five players:

• Mills (co-captain) - retains but shares captaincy. Really needs to focus on being a selfless leader though (another post likely to come on this subject, but to keep it brief for now, I have seen too many things that bring into question his leadership, however I also think it would be dis-stabilising to remove him from the captaincy and there must be a lot of great stuff I miss behind the scenes - and at least he got cranky when our performances were piss poor!)
• Rowbottom (co-captain) - he screams leader for me. I know some on here don’t think he has a presence, but I am pretty sure I read that his teammates say he is loud on the field and a real leader in organising the midfield. Plus he is the toughest and hardest player on our list, and he should be empowered to ruthlessly hold his teammates to his own high standards. He’ll need to learn to be less nice.
• Melican - he was the only back who looked like a leader to me during the GF. I have also always liked him as a player. I think he stands up with a sense of calm and he had his first clean year without injury, and it was very strong. I want the other defenders to want to be more like him. I think he will need to grow his broader game awareness but I think he has it in him, it will also make him a better player.
• Papley - should probably never be captain again, but can be a leader in his own unique way. He is our strongest competitor and other players should look to match him in this regard.
• Rampe - stays as the old sage and mentor to the younger players. Can wrap his arms around players when they need it, but shouldn’t be first seen on field as someone to let them know if they are meeting standards or not. We should be willing to drop him to reserves if he doesn’t make the grade.

Players considered by deliberately not selected:

• Gulden - needs to hear that he got well too far ahead of himself. He needs a year or burn and self development to support him on his long term aspiration of being captain, Goodes style.
• Parker - I am assuming he is off to North. If he stays, I think he plays mostly reserves. I think he sets high intensity standard, but he also does too many dumb things. Don’t want players seeking to replicate his style.
• Heeney - I think he plays best when he can focus on himself. The leaders need to actively monitor him and make sure he doesn’t push himself too hard. I have no idea why. No idea why, but I reckon Melican could be good for this - doesn’t have much to do with him on the field so could be more objective maybe. Or maybe Cox could just do his day job?
• Adams - he was vice-captain at Collingwood when they won the premiership, and I reckon he is one of those players they plays better when they have more responsibility. The reason for leaving him out is that it doesn’t appear like he took his demotion too well (very hard to tell though) and he will likely play a fair bit of reserves next year. I think we missed a trick but not putting him in the leadership group at the start of this year, but now it is too late.

I’ve gotta say, it was hard to find 5 players for the leadership group. We obviously have a young-ish list, but I remember back when we had 8 players and most of them selected themselves. Growing our leaders needs to be a big priority, but also drafting and trading need to value these qualities higher.

Adams is cooked. I doubt he ever plays another AFL game. Too slow.

 

[BloodySwan]

We can't just make a couple adjustments and expect to improve. This result I feel is really going to hurt us.

I'm not necessarily calling for Horse to leave but we need to make a big shift. Horse stepping down will definately have an immediate impact.

A couple players will retire but an aggressive trade period may also be needed. Push players out to bring the in.

We are also targetting Horse but the rest of the coaching staff also deserve a look into. Our assistant coaching staff is largely the same as 2022. Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

43

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

, Don Pyke, Jarrad McVeigh

Jarrad Mcveigh

Age

39

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.3

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

8.2

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.1

5star

MG

327.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.4

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.8

4star

and Ben Mathews

Ben Mathews

Age

45

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.8

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

1.0

3star

were mostly there the last time too.

 

[zyzzbruh]

If we must continue with 3 tall forwards, we need 2 of the 3 to probably get 33% better over the next one or two seasons, and one to probably get 50% better. I'm not talking about output etc here - but ability to impact games consistently. We go from what 7 or 8 goals in the prelim to nothing in the Grand Final.

I fear the ceiling for Amartey has already just about been reached, McLean will never be much more than an honest toiler, and McDonald will never quite reach his peak.

I tend to think we should pick 2 and go for it. If McLean is one of them (Which I think he will be - as we need a decent relief ruck in the side) - then we need to actively manage Grundy far better. Have him take more of the ruck duties, but actually be managed in some games across the season, and have whoever the backup ruck in the squad is play more than an odd game here and there.

I really fear we will never get enough out of those 3 big talls - but equally, I think we aren't anywhere near right with our mix of players around them either. Good teams simply waltz it out at ease against us now when they are on top - the pressure simply isn't there.

Replacing Parker with someone with leg speed like a Cleary or Wicks is a starting point (I'd go the former) is a first step.

Wicks has to be in the team long term. May not always be guaranteed a vintage performance but you can take it to the bank that he would've been the most tenacious swans player out there on Saturday

 

[Kiama Chris]

I don't think we need wholesale or drastic changes to the best 23. Imo 1 change across each line

Something like...
Defence: Mills
Mids: Sheldrick or Adams
Fwd: Cleary

Outs: Amartey, Parker, Fox

I'd trial Florent in the fwd line, Gulden pure wing & Warner more fwd time.

Was thinking exactly this kind of thing in the shower this morning! Assuming Parker and Warners are gone (just for discussion):
Back 7
Cunningham Edwards Rampe
McCartin Melican Blakey Roberts
Ruck Grundy
Middle 8 (5 on the bench)
Heeney Rowbottom Mills Sheldrick
Gulden McInerney Lloyd Florent
Forward 7
Jordon McDonald Campbell
Papley Buller Hayward McLean

More height and bulk down back.
More grunt inside.
More speed up forward (except McLean).
Heeney roaming forward, Mills resting back.
McCartin can play more the intercept role.
Roberts and Blakey for kick ins.

 

[grimlock]

Who were the top 6?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

AFL Match Stats

AFL Match Stats

www.wheeloratings.com

Grundy, Rowbottom, Fox, Parker

However if you take away Q4 it's only 3 of the top 13.

 

[mcs095]

Wicks has to be in the team long term. May not always be guaranteed a vintage performance but you can take it to the bank that he would've been the most tenacious swans player out there on Saturday

Don't really care if its Wicks, Cleary or someone else. But we have definitely have to get some pressure and tenacity back into that forward line. It was embarrassing watching the Lions waltz it out after we kicked for the umpteenth time to a 3 on 1 against us.

 

[Punts]

Rampe isn’t the answer down back now

He should have retired this year imo

 

[MF]

Two words I would love to see in big red and white text in the locker rooms:

• Ruthless
• Relentless

Whenever our current crop of players are asked what the bloods ethos means they always say something along the lines of "It's about being team first, and playing for each other".

Back in the early 2000's when Maxfield, Kirk and co were driving our standards the playing group came up with 3 words... Hard, disciplined & relentless. (apparently somewhere around the mid 2000's the word relentless was changed to 'united')

When those players were asked about the bloods culture back then they basically said that it's about respect, more than results. Knowing that other sides would hate having to face them because they always came to play for the full 120 minutes and if they walked away with the 4 points then they'd have earned it the hard way.

I could have coped with a loss on Saturday, but not like that. There was nothing hard or relentless about what happened in that game or in 2022. It's time for someone at the club to step up and start driving some of those old standards.

 

[melbournehammer]

Great reflections little john - thank you.

If Longmire was an EPL coach, he would be seen as indisputably one of the best of his generation, if not the best (I honestly don’t know the minor premiership records of other teams).

Which isn’t to absolve him of responsibility for GF fails, as whether we like it or not, the minor premiership is almost worthless as an end in itself in the AFL. In fact, you are probably better coming in second so you still get two home finals but you don’t get the noose around your neck if you fail to take out the premiership.

This isnt true.

EPL teams move on successful coaches all the time.

AFL Match Stats

AFL Match Stats

www.wheeloratings.com

Grundy, Rowbottom, Fox, Parker

However if you take away Q4 it's only 3 of the top 13.

This would be the most pointless data ever. to think a single swan did better than ah chee or lohmann...

I know who had an impact on the match and didnt.

 

[Tedeski]

Whenever our current crop of players are asked what the bloods ethos means they always say something along the lines of "It's about being team first, and playing for each other".

Back in the early 2000's when Maxfield, Kirk and co were driving our standards the playing group came up with 3 words... Hard, disciplined & relentless. (apparently somewhere around the mid 2000's the word relentless was changed to 'united')

When those players were asked about the bloods culture back then they basically said that it's about respect, more than results. Knowing that other sides would hate having to face them because they always came to play for the full 120 minutes and if they walked away with the 4 points then they'd have earned it the hard way.

I could have coped with a loss on Saturday, but not like that. There was nothing hard or relentless about what happened in that game or in 2022. It's time for someone at the club to step up and start driving some of those old standards.

Now we have the word “diverse” up on the walls.

“Share the premierships around all of the AFL teams”.

North, West Coast, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Geelong, Brisbane””.

“Because we care about all the teams in the competition.”

 

[mcs095]

I could have coped with a loss on Saturday, but not like that. There was nothing hard or relentless about what happened in that game or in 2022. It's time for someone at the club to step up and start driving some of those old standards.

Our standards are now frankly framed around 'one game won't define us' and 'its amazing we got there again'.....