The what if thread

[Vdubs]

For the Hawk fan you'd substitute Isaac Smith in 2016. I recall watching that exact moment live, thinking I was about to witness either the absurd extension of that ridiculously awesome era, or the end of the dynasty with that very kick. If we'd won, a week's rest and then a home game v Sydney...you'd think if any side had the ability to manage a week and plan a response it'd be us, but the cracks were huge...I'd bet the Dogs would have done the same to Geelong as they did to us, and we'll keep history intact for the PF...nah...just can't see us lifting the 2016 flag. 2015 was only possible due to our experience and coaching, but two years in a row? Dogs over Swans in that parallel universe too. The most defining moment for me in that finals series as a Hawk fan was Bont's bump on Hodge, an emphatic changing of the guard...we were done...!

The Varcoe scenario...Hawthorn were never seriously troubled by Freo in the GF no matter how close the scores seemed. We could score and they couldn't, and when it counted later on that was what happened. We also used their bottleneck defensive game plan on them. The Cats would have had to do the same thing, and I've never given Chris Scott that much credit to be honest! But it's damned hard to repeat the dose, so if Freo played all their cards and pissed the Cats off in the QF, they would have found it monumentally difficult to win the GF as well...as Steve Waugh said to Herschell Gibbs, you could tell Varcoe he just dropped the premiership cup...!

Not so. Had Varcoe goaled, it would have drawn the score. Absolutely no way you predict the Cats had the legs to keep going into extra time. Hawks were all over us in the last 30 minutes.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Not so. Had Varcoe goaled, it would have drawn the score. Absolutely no way you predict the Cats had the legs to keep going into extra time. Hawks were all over us in the last 30 minutes.

Hawks were all over you all game. Just forgot how to kick a goal for 3 quarters.
Should have been a good 5 goals up, instead down by 20 points at 3/4 time

 

[lumpinee]

For the Hawk fan you'd substitute Isaac Smith in 2016. I recall watching that exact moment live, thinking I was about to witness either the absurd extension of that ridiculously awesome era, or the end of the dynasty with that very kick. If we'd won, a week's rest and then a home game v Sydney...you'd think if any side had the ability to manage a week and plan a response it'd be us, but the cracks were huge...I'd bet the Dogs would have done the same to Geelong as they did to us, and we'll keep history intact for the PF...nah...just can't see us lifting the 2016 flag. 2015 was only possible due to our experience and coaching, but two years in a row? Dogs over Swans in that parallel universe too. The most defining moment for me in that finals series as a Hawk fan was Bont's bump on Hodge, an emphatic changing of the guard...we were done...!

The Varcoe scenario...Hawthorn were never seriously troubled by Freo in the GF no matter how close the scores seemed. We could score and they couldn't, and when it counted later on that was what happened. We also used their bottleneck defensive game plan on them. The Cats would have had to do the same thing, and I've never given Chris Scott that much credit to be honest! But it's damned hard to repeat the dose, so if Freo played all their cards and pissed the Cats off in the QF, they would have found it monumentally difficult to win the GF as well...as Steve Waugh said to Herschell Gibbs, you could tell Varcoe he just dropped the premiership cup...!

young Bonts out manouvering of ageing and battle weary warrior Hodge was the changing of the guard and the symbol for me on the closing chapter on Hawthorns dynasty,that was the defining play,i'll never forget it..just as it was for Francis Bourke and to a lesser extent Richmond in rd.1 of 1981 when a young Peter Bosustow ran rampant over a tired and battle torn 32 yr old Bourke and Carlton smashing us ,the reigning premiers, by 10 goals,our first game after being crowned.

 

[JackFlash]

The should'ves and could'ves of Football, every supporter has a story..

 

[emuboy]

Alternatively, what if South Melbourne had been allocated a much stronger country zone?

This “what if” is actually more interesting than it might seem and to my mind much more so than the corresponding one re Melbourne. Partly for geographic reasons, I have often thought about how the League might have evolved if South Melbourne had been given the zone Hawthorn were in the Mornington Peninsula and West Gippsland.

Of the five poorest clubs in the League as of 1967 – the four “soccer belt” clubs and Hawthorn – South Melbourne possibly would have been in the best position without altered zoning to challenge the “big five” and St. Kilda for a place in the top half of the ladder. The Swans finished fourth in 1970, but the weakness of their country zone meant they collapsed immediately to win just five games in 1971 and 1972 combined, lose 29 in a row from Round 7, 1972 to Round 13, 1973, and finish last in all three grades in 1973. Between 1972 and 1979 South Melbourne’s Under-19s were wooden spooners six times (four in a row from 1973 to 1976) and had an overall record of 30—143—2 or a winning percentage of 17.71%.

If South had gained a much stronger country zone, I have ever since (mentally) studying the topic thought that the Swans would not have suffered their crash following that 1970 revival. Instead, the Swans would have remained highly competitive throughout the 1970s, and would not have been targeted for relocation ahead of Fitzroy or Footscray or (if they did not gain such a strong zone as they did) North Melbourne. Even Hawthorn, who were unaffected by Mediterranean and Eastern European immigration but possessed a very small supporter base and no wealthy patrons, might have been more vulnerable to relocation or folding than South.

What I’ve recently grasped, is that if South had stayed at South, there would have been an extra ground with pre-installed lights to cope with the demands of television – in sharp contrast to the other suburban grounds where installing lights was never possible due (I presume) to political opposition by local residents. That would at least potentially mean the Lake Oval could have been maintained even in a fully national competition, especially as it is not inaccessible by pre-existing public transport as Waverley was. So, would Docklands have been needed or built if South Melbourne had been allotted a stronger zone? Would the ground planning have been completely different from an early stage if South had been given a stronger zone?

That's really interesting reading Mianfei, I never knew the full history of South Melbourne during the early 1970s apart from the Swans sliding dramatically after their 1970 finals appearance and struggling from 1971-1975 until improving in the latter half of the decade. I didn't know that they also struggled at Reserves and Under 19's level too, such as the wooden spoon sequence of the Under 19s from 1973-1976 and all three South Melbourne teams finishing at the bottom of the ladder in 1973. It contrasts a lot with Melbourne, because while the Dees really struggled at league level from the mid 1960s to the mid 1980s, their Reserves and Under 19s did pretty well, featuring in plenty of Grand Finals during this era and winning quite a few of them. As one example, Melbourne finished last in 1981 with a dismal 1-21 record, but their Under 19s won the 1981 Grand Final.

Going back 10 years to the early 1960s and before country zoning, do you know some of the reasons why Fitzroy declined so fast after a promising start to that decade? From 1958-1961, things looked pretty good for the Lions. They made the finals in 1958 and 1960, and were very stiff to narrowly miss September action in even seasons in 1959 and 1961. They also were unlucky not to make the 1960 Grand Final against Melbourne, and at the time the Lions' stretch without a flag dating back to 1944 was more a lengthy dry spell than a fully fledged drought. However, in 1962 Fitzroy slumped to 10th with a 5-13 record, then were last in 1963 (1-17) and 1964 (0-18), second last in 1965 (4-14), back to 12th in 1966 (1-17) 11th in 1967 (4-14) and again in 1968 (4-16), and while the Lions 7-13 season in 1969 was an improvement, Fitzroy could still finish no higher than 10th.

Most significantly, I remember reading that in 1964 Fitzroy League and Reserves both went winless, and their Under 19s managed just 1 win for the entire season, and obviously a hat-trick of wooden spoons for the Lions. I'm not sure if Fitzroy's Reserves and Under 19s struggled in other years during this poor era, but the steep decline from the promising very early 1960s is extraordinary and I've never been sure what caused it.

 

[Gibbke]

Not so. Had Varcoe goaled, it would have drawn the score. Absolutely no way you predict the Cats had the legs to keep going into extra time. Hawks were all over us in the last 30 minutes.

Ah yes, it was too. In that case, yeah, Hawks were definitely odds on. If Geelong did finish in front though, a shot to win and not draw, I'd keep what I said...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

What if Rough doesn’t get Cancer and miss all of 2016? 4 peat?

 

[WilloTree]

freo wet dream

fact is freo 2006 side was very ordinary..No way they win the premiership no matter what scenario you come up with

Round 21 2006.

West Coast 8.13 (61)​

def. by

Fremantle 18.10 (118)

ouch

 

[Roylion]

Most significantly, I remember reading that in 1964 Fitzroy League and Reserves both went winless, and their Under 19s managed just 1 win for the entire season, and obviously a hat-trick of wooden spoons for the Lions. I'm not sure if Fitzroy's Reserves and Under 19s struggled in other years during this poor era, but the steep decline from the promising very early 1960s is extraordinary and I've never been sure what caused it.

A very poorly maintained home ground and training facilities during the early and mid 60s made Fitzroy a very unattractive club to play at. That's when they moved... sharing Princes Park in 1967 and 1968. In 1970 they moved the Junction Oval and slowly but surely their on-field performance began to improve.

In 1970 they finished 9th with 9 wins, 1971 6th with 12 wins, 1972 they had another 9 wins. They won the 1974 reserves premiership and then the 19878 night premiership and combined with some recruiting of players of the like of Robert Walls and Bernie Quinlan had a period of sustained success. When forced to leave the Junction Oval at the end of 1984, the downhill slide began again, with the last finals appearance occuring in 1986. In the times when home ground facilities were poor (1960-1966) or non existant due to ground-sharing (1968-1969) and 1985-1996) Fitzroy always found it difficult to attract players of the calibre to make finals and challenge for a premiership.

 

[Vdubs]

Hawks were all over you all game. Just forgot how to kick a goal for 3 quarters.
Should have been a good 5 goals up, instead down by 20 points at 3/4 time

Maybe. I didn't see the first 3 quarters. Got home from work to watch the last quarter. Not quite as bad as 08. At least we went in as not favourites in that prelim.

 

[terrybull]

What if University did not drop out of the VFL/AFL..,

Would they have eventually changed their name in modern times to the suburb they were in? East Melbourne Blacks?

Would they have been first to be shipped of to Sydney?

Or would they eventually have merged with the powerful VFA club North Melbourne who were dying to get into the VFL somehow?. Playing in black, blue and white with a new mascot?

 

[Wallaby]

What if University did not drop out of the VFL/AFL..,

Would they have eventually changed their name in modern times to the suburb they were in? East Melbourne Blacks?

Would they have been first to be shipped of to Sydney?

Or would they eventually have merged with the powerful VFA club North Melbourne who were dying to get into the VFL somehow?. Playing in black, blue and white with a new mascot?

Doubt, it. They would have folded quickly even without WW1. The University sides began in the late 1800s, in the days of strictly amateur sport. There were university sides in many sports and many countries. They started out pretty competetive - being almost exculsively young, reasonably fit blokes in their early 20s. But once teams turned into clubs that had winning as their aim and started paying players, the university teams just weren't a viable concept. With a huge player turnover, and those players not being fully committed to their sport, but rather their studies - they had no hope.
Even without WW1 their decline to uncompetetivemess would just have accelerated as more and more professionalism came into the game.

Thye only place University sports remain a viable financial concern is the US college system - and those are basically professional teams (but of course the players don't get paid - the good ones start getting paid in High school) and the players are at the college for one reason - to get a pro contract.

 

[emuboy]

A very poorly maintained home ground and training facilities during the early and mid 60s made Fitzroy a very unattractive club to play at. Then when they moved... sharing Princes Park in 1967 and 1968. In 1970 they mved the Junction Oval and slowly byt surely their on-field performance began to improve. In 1970 they finished 9th with 9 wins, 1971 6th with 12 wins, 1972 they had another 9 wins. They won the 1974 reserves premiership and then the 19878 night premiership and combined with some recruiting of players of the like of Robert Walls and Bernie Quinlan had a period of sustained success. When forced to leave the Junction Oval at the end of 1984, the downhill slide began again, with the last finals appearance occuring in 1986. In the times when home ground facilities were poor (1960-1966) or non existant due to ground-sharing (1968-1969) and 1985-1996) Fitzroy always found it difficult to attract players of the calibre to make finals and challenge for a premiership.

I remember reading about how some change-rooms and toilet facilities at the dilapidated Brunswick Street Oval were condemned by the council in the mid 1960s, forcing the Lions move to Princes Park in 1967. Still, it's a pretty remarkable slide for a team from a seniors premiership contender in 1960 to winless seniors and reserves and a 1 win under 19s by 1964.

 

[Roylion]

I remember reading about how some change-rooms and toilet facilities at the dilapidated Brunswick Street Oval were condemned by the council in the mid 1960s, forcing the Lions move to Princes Park in 1967. Still, it's a pretty remarkable slide for a team from a seniors premiership contender in 1960 to winless seniors and reserves and a 1 win under 19s by 1964.

They just couldnt attract the players.

Fitzroy Football Club left Brunswick Street Oval in 1966 because the ground facilities became unfit for VFL football and it had no power to fix said facilities.

Unfortunately it was the Fitzroy Cricket Club that controlled the ground...not the Football Club. While the local council refused to spend any money on the ground, the far wealthier Fitzroy Cricket Club also refused to spend any money.

Fitzroy Football Club paid the Fitzroy Cricket Club to use the ground and about a thousand cricket club members got into the ground for free every weekend in the football season to watch Fitzroy Football Club.

The football club proposed a number of initiatives to try and stay at the BSO which obviously was their heartland. They suggested that the Fitzroy Cricket Club and the Fitzroy Football Club form one club, which the cricket club rejected. (this happened at Carlton). An offer by Fitzroy Football Club to borrow $400,000 from the Fitzroy council to upgrade the ground was also rejected by the Cricket Club. The football club also wanted a forty year lease which was opposed by the Council, although the council had agreed to give them a 21 year lease with no funds for subsequent improvement, which the football club found unacceptable, given that the Cricket Club still controlled the ground.

Meanwhile of course prospective VFL players didn’t want to play for Fitzroy because of the poor facilities and often went to neighbouring clubs Carlton and Collingwood because of their better facilities and ground arrangements, and according to Billy Stephens, their better ability to find them jobs from industry and other places located in their larger geographical area. Note that when Fitzroy was on or close to the bottom of the ladder in 1963-66, this co-incided with the worst disrepair of Brunswick Street in its history.

After the Brunswick Street football rooms were finally condemned by the local council health officer, which made them unusable, Fitzroy Football Club made a number of approaches to share grounds with Northcote and Preston in the VFA. But these came to nothing.

Fitzroy would have moved to the Junction Oval for the 1967 season where the St Kilda Cricket Club wanted them as a tenant, but a large number of St Kilda Cricket Club members and supporters opposed the move and it was quashed. Fitzroy instead had no choice but to go to Princes Park instead for the 1967, 1968 and 1969 seasons, when it finally negotiated a successful move to the Junction Oval for the 1970 season.

Interestingly in 1969 when the Fitzroy City Council heard that Fitzroy were set to leave Princes Park, they made an approach to the Fitzroy to return to the Brunswick Street Oval. Fitzroy Football Club agreed to return if ground works, including extensive improvements to the outer were carried out and new player rooms and public toilets were built. Unfortunately no agreement could be reached between the Council, the Cricket Club and the Football Club over what ground improvements were needed.

At the Junction Oval there was a real sense of Fitzroy community, even though it was in St Kilda. It was our ground, one we shared with no-one else. It was a superb ground to play on, especially after the mud-heap of Brunswick Oval. I never actually saw a VFL match at the Brunswick Oval, but there are plenty of stories of how much of a mud-slog it was. Standing in front of the Kevin Murray Stand at the Junction Oval surrounded by thousands of Fitzroy people at a game was a fantastic experience. One that was certainly not replicated at Victoria Park and Princes Park. Fitzroy players such as Paul Roos concur.

Fitzroy were forced to move from the Junction Oval in 1984 as part of VFL's ground rationalisation policy, beginning the process of the Club depending on other clubs such as Carlton and Collingwood (their traditional rivals) to generate significant revenue from a home ground. It wasn't until 1994 that they actually made reasonable money from a shared home ground when they went out to the Western Oval.

 

[Pessimistic]

What if zoning was still the way to recruit players.
From a Geelong perspective, who knows how powerful they would have been over the years with players including this side.
The 'best of the Geelong Falcons' side:
FB: Steven Baker, Matthew Scarlett, Matt Maguire
HB: Luke Hodge, Nick Maxwell, Chris Heffernan
C: Travis Boak, Gary Ablett Jnr, Cameron Ling
HF: Patrick Dangerfield, Jonathan Brown, Brent Moloney
FF: Amon Buchanan, Scott Lucas, Gary Rohan
FO: Matt Primus, Jimmy Bartel, Jordan Lewis
INC: Ben Cunnington, Shaun Higgins, Darcy Parish, Sam Walsh, Taylor Adams (sub)

probably need the entire rest of australia zone to match that

 

[Pessimistic]

Ironically Fitzroy have a nice little amateur set up these days

 

[Scotland]

Round 21 2006.

West Coast 8.13 (61)​

def. by

Fremantle 18.10 (118)

ouch

15 years later and Freo fans still think this is a thing.

Freo lost to Adelaide and Sydney in the 2006 finals. WC beat Adelaide and Sydney in the 2006 finals.

Geelong flogged Richmond in 2019 then lost to them in a prelim. They beat them in 2017 and then got flogged by them in a prelim. Richmond beat Collingwood easily twice in 2018 then got flogged by them in a prelim.

H&A results only matter in terms of what ladder position they give you, that's it.

 

[Roylion]

Ironically Fitzroy have a nice little amateur set up these days

They are as they started in 1883. An amateur club with their home ground at the Brunswick Street Oval representing the suburb of Fitzroy.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

What if Buckley went to another club to be an assistant coach instead of Collingwood.

 

[WilloTree]

15 years later and Freo fans still think this is a thing.

Did you read the OP?

It's kind of what the thread is about.

Freo beat WC twice in 2006, including a thumping in Round 21 by 10 goals, that's it.

 

[Whisper in the Wind]

What if Priority Picks were not given between 2004-2009?

2004 - Franklin to Collingwood?
#4 - Tambling (Rich)
#5 - Franklin (Haw)
#6 - Williams (WBD)

Deledio, Roughead and Griffin go top 3.

Hawthorn would have had the #4 pick (was Pick #7), which gets them Buddy, but they would miss out on Jordan Lewis

Jordan Lewis

Age

38

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

11.5

5star

M

5.5

5star

T

2.7

4star

MG

310.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.0

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

5star

, who would likely end up at Carlton or Collingwood.

However, Hawthorn got their pick in a trade from Collingwood. Would Collingwood have traded pick #4 if they knew Buddy would be available - probably not.

2005 - Judd to Essendon?
#4 - Josh Kennedy (CAR/WCE)
#5 - Pendlebury (COLL)
#6 - Dowler (HAW)

Murphy, Thomas and Ellis go top 3.

Essendon would have had pick #4, with the option of Josh Kennedy or Scott Pendlebury

10

Scott Pendlebury

Age

36

Ht

191cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.5

5star

K

13.2

5star

HB

13.3

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.9

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.3

3star

CL

3.6

4star

D

12.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

.
Lloyd and Lucas were coming to the end so I assume they would’ve taken Kennedy. Kennedy was part of the Judd trade, and Essendon were in the race. Judd eventually chose between Carlton and Collingwood - but Essendon would have had 15 years with an eventual Coleman winning forward.
Essendon happened to draft Paddy Ryder, who may have ended up at Fremantle.

Richmond would have had pick #5 - giving them Pendlebury.

2009 - Martin and Fyfe to North?
#2 - Jack Trengove

Jack Trengove

Age

33

Ht

186cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.5

5star

K

9.4

4star

HB

9.1

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

4.5

5star

MG

188.9

3star

No current season stats available

D

20.6

5star

K

8.6

4star

HB

12.0

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

3.6

5star

"Tom Scully

21

Tom Scully

Age

33

Ht

181cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.7

5star

K

9.9

4star

HB

10.8

5star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.5

5star

CL

2.3

4star

D

12.6

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.1

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.1

2star

CL

0.8

3star

D

19.8

5star

K

8.8

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.6

5star

CL

3.8

5star

has been touted at the Number 1 pick for almost the entire season.
Trengove - strong performances in the National Carnival where he lead SA to 2nd place, and strong BOG performances in the latter stages of the SANFL season with his club side Sturt, have lead many to tout him on par with Scully."

"If Scully or Trengove miraculously fell through, the Tigers would snaffle either. That won’t happen.”

#1 Scully - Melbourne
#2 Trengove - Richmond
#3 Morabito - Fremantle pick the local
#4 Martin - North
Players are then picked in the same order they were drafted and Fyfe lands at North in the second round.

Yes, there's a contradiction - Fremantle would likely pick Fyfe as a local as well with the pick before North - but what if?

More likely that Fremantle take Martin at #3, then the local Fyfe at #19 and they could've both played for Fremantle.

 

[Scotland]

Did you read the OP?

It's kind of what the thread is about.

Freo beat WC twice in 2006, including a thumping in Round 21 by 10 goals, that's it.

So your 'what if' is 'what if Freo weren't rubbish in finals?'?

It's not really a 'what if' that you beat us in the H&A season. I guess you could've lost to us in Rd 21, finished 7th and then gone out in the first week...?

 

[Blues177]

What if Fitzroy had hung on to win the thrilling qualifying final in 1983 against eventual premier Hawthorn?
Given that North finished top but was thrashed in both finals it would have been the Roys best chance of winning a premiership in our lifetime.

 

[cannavo]

What if University did not drop out of the VFL/AFL..,

Would they have eventually changed their name in modern times to the suburb they were in? East Melbourne Blacks?

Would they have been first to be shipped of to Sydney?

Or would they eventually have merged with the powerful VFA club North Melbourne who were dying to get into the VFL somehow?. Playing in black, blue and white with a new mascot?

Poll - "What If" Wednesdays: Week 1 - University

Excellent haul for week 1 This week we asked........ Poll will run for 1 week Winner picks next team from this list Done - University Yet to be done - Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy Lions - Sydney Lions - Melbourne Hawks - Melbourne Lions - North Fitzroy Kangaroos - Fitzroy Bulldogs - Tasmanian...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[RedmanWasHere]

2008 - Martin and Fyfe to North?

To nit-pick, Martin and Fyfe were taken in 2009.

2008 had Watts, Naitanui and Hill as top 3.