The Worsfold coaching situation mega-thread, now 3 times as mega!

[Geoffe_Miles]

While I don't agree with SDB on the coach points as far as he does not get credit when we perform I do agree with him on some of our younger players.

Ebert, Masten and Swift in my opinion are just average players at this point and you could not even put the tag of Average on Swift.

Swift can hardly get a kick in the WAFL, his awareness and slow tie to react is to be honest something i would expect from a player in c + D grade amatuer football. At this present point he looks to have very little future and can't for the life of me see how anyone can be excited at his prospects other than Possibly Claremont.

Ebert I think did improve last year and seems to get a lot of the ball but his skills are woefull and I still can't swallow AFL players that have such poor skills.
There was a well written document during this season by Damien Hardwick and endorsed by leigh Matthews that said you can't do much for players with poor kicking skills once they reach the AFL, you can teach them decision making and awareness to possibly give them some more time but their actual skills of kicking are near impossible to change. This is something so many don't seem to understand.
Based on that I think Ebert is always going to be a B Grader because he can't kick.

Masten I just don't know about, I watched him a lot as a young player and he played with flair and was very sharp. He has gone to the Eagles and both those things are no longer evident. He rarely plays on the ball which is what he was drafted for and has had on going injuries as it seems all new recruits at the Eagles have. Again until someone gives him more freedom to be the player he is then i think not much will come from him. He is one player that needs anew coach badly that lets him just go and play.

I agree with your points on player with bad disposal GWS. I have said that on here before myself (and got shouted down, of course).

How many times has any of us seen a player with disposal as bad Ebert, Swift, Masten etc at this stage of their careers go on to miracurously cure this problem and become high quality players with good disposal? Not very often in my reckoning. Of all the components that can missing in your young 2-4 season midfielders good disposal is the worst because it is the hardest to correct. It's better if their fitness or decision making or knowledge of where to position themselves etc is lacking because at least then the coaches have a chance to help them.

The evidence of history says that bad kicking is very, very hard to fix and in todays possesion oriented game plans kicking and tackling are the two paramount skills a midfielder must have to succeed. Look at the game plans of clubs on the way up in recent years like Collingwood, Hawthorn and STK. Their game plans are built around accurate disposal, holding on to the footy and forcing turnovers through tackling. I have not completely given up hope with our young players but the signs are not good.

In fact i think Ebert's career will follow the trajectory of Aaron Fiora/ Farren Ray. We will hang on untill his trade value falls to zero and then offload for nothing and then he will have some kind of career renaissance at another club a second tier player in some kind of role other than midfield.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

I guess we have differing definitions of success then.

Laidley never won a flag with 6 and a half years - getting pumped in a prelim was the best he got.

Chris Scott was involved in one Finals win with Freo in 3 years.

That's hardly setting the world on fire.

I will say about C Scott though - that he came across very well when he spoke on the radio - and if reports can be believed was very impressive in the port application.

But there will always be well equipped assistants coming up - and as it stands - Scott Watters has a far more impressive resume

Such a stupid thing to say. So often said on here and so stupid. So what if Laidley never won a flag? Is that supposed to be a direct reflection of his worth as a coach? You do realise that it takes more than just a good coach to win a flag? You do realise you need a whole host of factors to run in your favour at the one time - e.g. the playing list and quality of players, injuries, being at a club with good training and recruiting resources etc.

You talk as though not winning a flag means Laidley is a dud. Would you be saying that about Worsfold is we had lost by a point in 2006? I doubt it. Such a dumb opinion. Because we won a flag by a point that means that everything the coach has ever done and ever will do is brilliant ad correct. Ridiculous.

When it comes to the WCE in 2010 winning a spoon is not a relection on the coach at all, according to you, and it's all about the players and the youth factor and these uncontrollable and outside factors etc. Not fair to blame the coach at all there apparently. But if your Laidley and you don't win a flag in 6 seasons at the Kangaroos then that is a direct reflection on your coaching and all those other factors don't count in your case. It's just your coaching that is to blame. Show some consistency.

I suppose the Crows would have been better off not hiring that dud Malcolm Blight given he hadn't won a flag when he went there ... and then went on to lead them to back to back flags.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Let's keep it on topic from now on guys.

 

[CursoryMercenary]

Laidley had one of the worst lists on paper and was great with that team, he should be coaching now still. Chris Scott and the rest of the Freo assistants are the responsible party for getting Freo to where they are today, Harvey will improve as a coach but it's not because of him.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Such a stupid thing to say. So often said on here and so stupid. So what if Laidley never won a flag? Is that supposed to be a direct reflection of his worth as a coach? You do realise that it takes more than just a good coach to win a flag? You do realise you need a whole host of factors to run in your favour at the one time - e.g. the playing list and quality of players, injuries, being at a club with good training and recruiting resources etc.

You talk as though not winning a flag means Laidley is a dud. Would you be saying that about Worsfold is we had lost by a point in 2006? I doubt it. Such a dumb opinion. Because we won a flag by a point that means that everything the coach has ever done and ever will do is brilliant ad correct. Ridiculous.

Laidley took over a side in the finals from 2002 and made the finals 3 out of 6 years - with a best finish of 4th and a worst of 14th. The side was average - remained average and he left with it being average.

Explain to me how that is success in any language.

On Worsfold - i don't think he would have a contract extension if he didn't win a flag. He made significant changes to our gameplan late in 2006 - and made a change in the GF where he left Wirrpanda loose in defence. Without both of these changes we wouldn't have a flag - and Worsfold would have squandered a golden midfield.

Woosha's made plenty of mistakes - but he's made plenty of great decisions.

When it comes to the WCE in 2010 winning a spoon is not a relection on the coach at all, according to you, and it's all about the players and the youth factor and these uncontrollable and outside factors etc. Not fair to blame the coach at all there apparently. But if your Laidley and you don't win a flag in 6 seasons at the Kangaroos then that is a direct reflection on your coaching and all those other factors don't count in your case. It's just your coaching that is to blame. Show some consistency.

Worsfold is absolutely accountable, like everyone else in the club for our position. We've made plenty of mistakes in list management and the regression of some our young players in 2010 from 2009 was disappointing.

What you fail to grasp is that the likelihood of a win with an average age under 23 is almost nil. Is it a surprise that Freo have drafted another 2 mature age players this year?

I'm not pro woosha as you so like to paint me - I'm simply pro letting him see out the final year of his contract. He supposedly sold a vision before the contract, declined a 3 year deal - and we'll know into 2011 whether that is at all likely.

Coaches go stale and others re-invent. If the players don't develop next year - then Worsfold has lost them - and I'll be calling for his removal.

But i'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and hysterically claim the guy is a dud and no matter what he does he is a villain.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Laidley had one of the worst lists on paper and was great with that team, he should be coaching now still. Chris Scott and the rest of the Freo assistants are the responsible party for getting Freo to where they are today, Harvey will improve as a coach but it's not because of him.

Sorry mate can't agree with that, I think Harvey is the one who has gone in and turned it all around.
He has laid down the law, he has laid out a plan and must be given the credit for their consistency and rise up the ladder.

Mate no one wants Worsfold gone as much as me but I will say if he gets us moving in the right direction next year I will give him credit. Even if that means I have to eat some humble pie.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Laidley had one of the worst lists on paper and was great with that team, he should be coaching now still. Chris Scott and the rest of the Freo assistants are the responsible party for getting Freo to where they are today, Harvey will improve as a coach but it's not because of him.

Laidley took over a team that finished 7th.

Worsfold took over a team that finished 14th

lets not overstate it

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Sorry mate can't agree with that, I think Harvey is the one who has gone in and turned it all around.
He has laid down the law, he has laid out a plan and must be given the credit for their consistency and rise up the ladder.

Mate no one wants Worsfold gone as much as me but I will say if he gets us moving in the right direction next year I will give him credit. Even if that means I have to eat some humble pie.

Read your summation on a few of our youngsters and thought it made interesting reading.

Swift makes an interesting case - the end of 2009 he was almost BOG for us in Rd 22

2010 - he looked like a pleb.

That's a fair regression in 6 months.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Read your summation on a few of our youngsters and thought it made interesting reading.

Swift makes an interesting case - the end of 2009 he was almost BOG for us in Rd 22

2010 - he looked like a pleb.

That's a fair regression in 6 months.

This is the problem with many of our young players Falcon. They play a standout game and then are not seen for sometime and in Swifts case again to this point.

The good players can go into a side and perform at a reasonable level to maintain walk up start status even through their so called 50 game hiatus.

Many of our young players just are not developing or are not good enough.

I just don't know yet.

What were your thoughts on my comments on Swift , Masten and Ebert?

 

[CursoryMercenary]

Sorry mate can't agree with that, I think Harvey is the one who has gone in and turned it all around.
He has laid down the law, he has laid out a plan and must be given the credit for their consistency and rise up the ladder.

Mate no one wants Worsfold gone as much as me but I will say if he gets us moving in the right direction next year I will give him credit. Even if that means I have to eat some humble pie.

His smugness this year, telling the fans to toughen up, his shambolic team selections and his lack of apology to us the fans really got me angry and beyond the point of no return for me wanting him to stay on as our coach.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

This is the problem with many of our young players Falcon. They play a standout game and then are not seen for sometime and in Swifts case again to this point.

The good players can go into a side and perform at a reasonable level to maintain walk up start status even through their so called 50 game hiatus.

Many of our young players just are not developing or are not good enough.

I just don't know yet.

What were your thoughts on my comments on Swift , Masten and Ebert?

I agree largely

Ebert will never be a great kick - but i don't think that is catastrophic to being a decent player. Rob Harvey had a poor kick - but had a power running to make up for it. Craig Lambert barely kicked the ball but managed a decent career. The challenge for Brad is to find a way to best utilise his skill set. He actually looked alright when he went up forward late in the year - he has a decent size - and his kicking improved surprisingly.

Swift - i just dunno - i see occasional signs where he ghosts through a pack on an angle in plenty of time that looks fantastic. But he then doesn't take the option that presents and he gets pinged. When he debuted i remember watching him kick - or should I say 'try to kick'. He improved largely through 2009 to the point where his kick was adequate. But i just dunno

Masten - i think will make it - it's between his ears IMO. I know people whinged that he was played out of position - but half forward is pretty much wing nowadays. If you're in form you'll find the pill. I'll go against the grain here and say i think his kicking is fine - it's just that his decision making this year was atrocious. I remember some of his kicking inside 50m. The kicks would have actually been good and hit a target - had a defender not dropped across and intercepted. So it wasn't a skill issue - just a vision/decision issue.

2011 will be an interesting year indeed for those 3.

I might add - I tend to be a little more lenient with Swift - playing bugger all games in 4 years will do that to you.

He was a high risk/high reward selection given he hadn't played footy in 2 years

 

[Pat_Footy]

His smugness this year, telling the fans to toughen up, his shambolic team selections and his lack of apology to us the fans really got me angry and beyond the point of no return for me wanting him to stay on as our coach.

That is really taking things out of context. He said that in response to a question - it was played up. Team selections were forced on most occasions. Apology? He did not apologise which I wouldn't want or expect. He did however say that WC fans craved success and he was trying to win a premiership sooner rather than later.

Worsfold rejected an extension on his contract because he knew 2011 would be the year to make solid improvement. He's already stated if there is no improvement, he will step aside. What more do you want? Would you like him to lay down and die like a sick dog?

 

[Mattman93]

Swift will be fine, he (along with the whole side pretty much) was just playing completely devoid of confidence this season. Needs to go into this pre-season basically just forgetting everything about this year and playing/training on instinct and confidence.

Having said that, he still showed glimpses this year. Where I sit at the ground (forward pocket) you can't see much of the play too distictly up the other end. One game I was watching a bunch of figures in blue and gold jumpers running around in circles missing handpasses, dropping it and generally selling each other into trouble while the opposition waited, ready to pounce and score. I'm thinking "here we go again", when one player scoops it up one handed, sidesteps someone and directs play until suddenly we have the ball in space and are on the attack.
Sure enough that player was Swift. From that moment on I've been convinced he will be a top player.

inb4 cool story bro/tldr.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

Laidley took over a side in the finals from 2002 and made the finals 3 out of 6 years - with a best finish of 4th and a worst of 14th. The side was average - remained average and he left with it being average.

Explain to me how that is success in any language.

On Worsfold - i don't think he would have a contract extension if he didn't win a flag. He made significant changes to our gameplan late in 2006 - and made a change in the GF where he left Wirrpanda loose in defence. Without both of these changes we wouldn't have a flag - and Worsfold would have squandered a golden midfield.

Woosha's made plenty of mistakes - but he's made plenty of great decisions.



Worsfold is absolutely accountable, like everyone else in the club for our position. We've made plenty of mistakes in list management and the regression of some our young players in 2010 from 2009 was disappointing.

What you fail to grasp is that the likelihood of a win with an average age under 23 is almost nil. Is it a surprise that Freo have drafted another 2 mature age players this year?

I'm not pro woosha as you so like to paint me - I'm simply pro letting him see out the final year of his contract. He supposedly sold a vision before the contract, declined a 3 year deal - and we'll know into 2011 whether that is at all likely.

Coaches go stale and others re-invent. If the players don't develop next year - then Worsfold has lost them - and I'll be calling for his removal.

But i'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and hysterically claim the guy is a dud and no matter what he does he is a villain.

Be fair. Laidley inherited a team that was old and on the way down from a golden era. It's also fair to say that they made some trading blunders that may not necessarily have had anything to do with Laidley. Worsfold inherited a team that was already well into the rebuilding phase and had had several recent top 5 draft picks.

Laidleys mistake wasn't anything to do with his coaching. It was taking a job at a financially struggling club on the way down with an old list who would not give him permission to bottom it out. He was on a hiding to nothing from the start.

Interesting that there are several highly experienced assisants that have been and are on the market and prepared to accept an assisants role - Laidley himself and Matthew Knights. Worsfold says he wants experience. I don't see us making an offer to those guys. I wonder why?

 

[GO EAGLES]

TOm Swift started to hit good form in the middle of the year, including a very good game against Geelong.

Then the
APPENDISTIS - STOMACH PAIN hit him and could not play the Richmond game. Our midfield really struggled that game.

After that - mmmmmmmmm.
REALLY STUFFED HIM UP THE STOMACH THING.

 

[Mattman93]

TOm Swift started to hit good form in the middle of the year, including a very good game against Geelong.

Then the
APPENDISTIS - STOMACH PAIN hit him and could not play the Richmond game. Our midfield really struggled that game.

After that - mmmmmmmmm.
REALLY STUFFED HIM UP THE STOMACH THING.

Funnily enough I kind of agree with what I think you might be trying to say. He was down on form, but still looking promising before he was out with that illness, and then after that looked pretty useless.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Be fair. Laidley inherited a team that was old and on the way down from a golden era. It's also fair to say that they made some trading blunders that may not necessarily have had anything to do with Laidley. Worsfold inherited a team that was already well into the rebuilding phase and had had several recent top 5 draft picks.

You mean MacDougall?

Gardiner and Banfield were the other top 5 picks Worsfold inherited, but you wouldn't call either of them recent.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

That is really taking things out of context. He said that in response to a question - it was played up. Team selections were forced on most occasions. Apology? He did not apologise which I wouldn't want or expect. He did however say that WC fans craved success and he was trying to win a premiership sooner rather than later.

Worsfold rejected an extension on his contract because he knew 2011 would be the year to make solid improvement. He's already stated if there is no improvement, he will step aside. What more do you want? Would you like him to lay down and die like a sick dog?

So because Worsfold made those disgracefull comments "in response to a question" they are not relevent and don't count. Can you tell us what the question was and why, if the answer was in response to this question, it somehow mitigates the arrogance, contempt and conceit it is full of? That was the moment Worsfold showed his true colours towards the members. They treat us with contempt. Where have Worsfold and Nisbett been since the end of the home and away season? Anybody heard from them? If this was a less well off club the coach and chief exec would be out there communicating with members and telling us what the plan is.

Where does this "Worsfold rejected a contract extension" rumour come from? Is it substantiated in detail and from a credible source somewhere? Or is it just a rumour started on BF that has festered into fact. I would find it basically impossible to believe that any coach or player would turn down a longer contract in favour of a shorter one. Unless the long contract had stipulations and conditions they didn't like, such as maybe a large performance based component, and so they negotiated a shorter term but more fixed price contract as a compromise.

There is no way Worsfold turned down a longer contract. If he says he did he is just bulll****ing. Just like he BS'ed several times this year trying to claim to be unconcerned about his job and happy to walk away if the club asks when the reality is, from what i have heard from several Perth journos this year, he and his manager were actively and desperately lobbying power brokers all year and shoring up support for him to continue in 2011 and at one point were asking for a written guarantee that he would see out his contract. He wasn't "comfortable with where it's at" and "unconcerned" at all. He was very concerned about his job. That was all an act for teh public and media and i am sure we will see it again next season.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

You mean MacDougall?

Gardiner and Banfield were the other top 5 picks Worsfold inherited, but you wouldn't call either of them recent.

And Judd and Sampi.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Sampi was pick 6. And Woosh was the coach at the time they were picked, so Im not sure how you could say he inherited them.

 

[kranky al]

Interesting that there are several highly experienced assisants that have been and are on the market and prepared to accept an assisants role - Laidley himself and Matthew Knights. Worsfold says he wants experience. I don't see us making an offer to those guys. I wonder why?

laidley doesnt want to leave melb

knights= do not want

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Be fair. Laidley inherited a team that was old and on the way down from a golden era. It's also fair to say that they made some trading blunders that may not necessarily have had anything to do with Laidley. Worsfold inherited a team that was already well into the rebuilding phase and had had several recent top 5 draft picks.

We have the exact same number of top 5 draft picks now (3) as we did in 2001 and apparently haven't rebuilt now - but were well on the way in 2001 - so how does that work?

And you don't think Worsfold came in at the end of a golden era? A golden era topped up with such winners as Prior, Merenda, Sierakowski, Collica, Taylor, Harding

That squad was rubbish - we were getting pumped regularly - with a mature side. To suggest Worsfold came in to a great squad is a erroneous.

If you think Worsfold's list management was bad - how about giving up 1st rounders in successive drafts for Daniel McConnell, Jonathan Hay and Nathan Thompson.

He also traded in such winners as Sam Power.

Worsfold's record is a mile ahead of Laidley - no matter which way you spin it.

 

[Crow-mo]

The Worsfold thread has opposing views, but it's the pro-Worsfold crowd that can't accept an opposing view.

substitute Worsfold for Craig and you could be on our board.

difference is Craig didn't make 2 GF's or win a flag in his 2 years on top

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

substitute Worsfold for Craig and you could be on our board.

difference is Craig didn't make 2 GF's or win a flag in his 2 years on top

More than a little because of us

 

[SwiftforPM]

laidley doesnt want to leave melb

knights= do not want

No it's a conspiracy between Nisbett and Worsfold, they know if Laidley or Knights were to be employed at WC their dastardly plans to bring the club to it's knees would be exposed.
Source Brad Havabet on 6GM radio