Player Watch Tim Broomhead - (Delisted 2020)

[jackcass]

Decisions are not taken or measurable in isolation. I've discussed it often in other threads before and been told people are sick of it. IMO we zigged when we should have zagged. Of course there are no guarantees of silverware but we couldn't have won less and we wouldn't likely be worse off now.

Agree to disagree, think we'd more likely be wallowing like Carlton if we'd tried to hold our ground and likely to be in line for more timberware, but that's another story for another time.

 

[Scodog10]

Broomhead is well over-rated on output.

We all hope he'll advance but at this point he'll be lucky to be best 22, let alone a mid mainstay. Some people on this board are obsessed with idiosyncratic types who run their own show (I wonder why that might be?) and Broomhead fits that bill.

But he is waaaay off the standard at the moment and doesn't need to be flattered and feted by fans so much as given some very realistic targets to reach and sustain.

So those conversations you've had with Broomhead do share? One would think that to know that someone is a certain type of individual a one on one conversation would need to take place.

 

[doodles98]

It was a joke Joyce, just an extreme extrapolation of his point.

As to better players being available than Shaz and Freeman, well ain't hindsight a wonderful thing... both players obviously came with the pre-draft rider that they'd have injuries that would keep them out of footy for 2 years and potentially longer. They're not the first highly touted draftees to have issues, Menzel, Vardy and McCarthy come easily to mind. How was Petracca's first year? How was Hogan's? And who can say how their careers will pan out going forward. We can't re-write history so I'm not sure why we bother speculating and lamenting about what might of been, particularly when it leads to definitive statements about what we would/should/could have achieved.

Hindsight is what we are talking about here.. and we're just discussing what could have been and where we think we could have done better, or in this case where we were the victims of bad fortune that has set us back. It's all valid discussion for a discussion board in the off season isn't it?

 

[soreplums]

I've got hope for broomy. Shows enough to suggest that he can be a very good small forward, just not consistently.

Even stevie J took a little time to find his feet in the big league.

 

[jackcass]

Hindsight is what we are talking about here.. and we're just discussing what could have been and where we think we could have done better, or in this case where we were the victims of bad fortune that has set us back. It's all valid discussion for a discussion board in the off season isn't it?

Just a bit tiresome rehashing the same old hypotheticals... and the trouble with continually doing so on discussion boards is these hypotheticals gain traction as accepted fact...

I can't understand why people can't accept that Jolly, Didak, Ball, Krakouer et al were cooked. Their performances in their final years showed that. No amount of romance will ever make them the players they were or the players that would have lifted us to greater glory and that's what happens, teams evolve. Look at Lockyer, Fraser et al sitting in the stands during 2010 finals.

Ditto drafting and trading. It's a lottery. For every Nathan Freeman there's a Scotty Burns or Swanny. All you can do is thoroughly research players and make the best possible guess at where each player fits on that spectrum and select based on needs.

 

[PTpie]

Broomhead has a touch of class.

He is far from elite

Doesn't look like a footballer

Doesn't look that interested


I have serious doubts

Hope im wrong

I think I've read this in the Steele Sidebottom thread.

Broomhead will be a fine footballer and I hope he stays at Collingwood.

People seem to think that for every recruit Collingwood draft we have an Ollie Wines, Jaeger O'Meara or Adam Treloar. Those guys are the exception not the rule. Most players take 4 - 5 years (not injury ravaged either) in the system to develop their game and more importantly consistency. Big guys (Corey Gault) have historically taken longer (7 or more years).

Most "potentially elite" players generally show glimpses of magic in patches throughout games or over a few games before having longer periods where their output seems insignificant in their development years.

If we continually trade or de-list players after 4 - 5 years because they aren't A grade elite talent Collingwood will only have about 6 players on the list next year.

 

[Marvel]

I think I've read this in the Steele Sidebottom thread.

Broomhead will be a fine footballer and I hope he stays at Collingwood.

People seem to think that for every recruit Collingwood draft we have an Ollie Wines, Jaeger O'Meara or Adam Treloar. Those guys are the exception not the rule. Most players take 4 - 5 years (not injury ravaged either) in the system to develop their game and more importantly consistency. Big guys (Corey Gault) have historically taken longer (7 or more years).

Most "potentially elite" players generally show glimpses of magic in patches throughout games or over a few games before having longer periods where their output seems insignificant in their development years.

If we continually trade or de-list players after 4 - 5 years because they aren't A grade elite talent Collingwood will only have about 6 players on the list next year.

bravo. Correct.

 

[Gone Critical]

I think I've read this in the Steele Sidebottom thread.

Broomhead will be a fine footballer and I hope he stays at Collingwood.

People seem to think that for every recruit Collingwood draft we have an Ollie Wines, Jaeger O'Meara or Adam Treloar. Those guys are the exception not the rule. Most players take 4 - 5 years (not injury ravaged either) in the system to develop their game and more importantly consistency. Big guys (Corey Gault) have historically taken longer (7 or more years).

Most "potentially elite" players generally show glimpses of magic in patches throughout games or over a few games before having longer periods where their output seems insignificant in their development years.

If we continually trade or de-list players after 4 - 5 years because they aren't A grade elite talent Collingwood will only have about 6 players on the list next year.

My view would be more like if Broomy makes it he is likely to be a average to good footballer who can contribute.

I think your time scales are wrong here. 4-5 years to develop most players and big guys 7+ years is way overs. The good players, think most top 10 draft picks and others say like an Elliott, Fasolo, Langdon (if we think Collingwood) become establised in the 22 pretty quickly. Look at players coming into the system form picks in the 20's where Broomy came, an occasional star who plays seniors early, some average to good players who generally take 2-3 seasons to get a best 22 spot and a fair few who dont make it or are depth players who never pin down a best 22 spot. Big guys take a little longer but I would think if you are not playing seniors by season 4 you probably don't become a regular AFL player.

Your example of Gault is interesting. Entering his 5th season in the AFL its really make or break. Good start with NAB 1, which is the easiest match of the season. Hope he can replicate this week but realistically he needs to do a fair bit this season to be considered for a spot on the list in 2017. I hope he can make his start count but unfortunately its more likely he will play the vast majority of the year in the VFL and be off the list at the end of the year. Thats what happens to most players in his position. Hope he is an exception.

Broomys position isnt as tough but he still needs to boost his output in 2016 to be sure of a spot in 2017. Its likely he will start the season in the VFL and as Howe and Elliott filter back positions will be tough to earn. Truth is most good footballers are showing more than Broomy by this stage and of the very good group who can go onto be the top guys at their club they are shining already. At Collingwood think De Goey, Moore, Langdon, Grundy, Aish who are same draft or younger and these are the group from where our next A graders are likely to appear.

 

[jmac70]

Decisions are not taken or measurable in isolation. I've discussed it often in other threads before and been told people are sick of it. IMO we zigged when we should have zagged. Of course there are no guarantees of silverware but we couldn't have won less and we wouldn't likely be worse off now.

This is the most accurate thing I have ever read from you.

 

[PTpie]

My view would be more like if Broomy makes it he is likely to be a average to good footballer who can contribute.

I think your time scales are wrong here. 4-5 years to develop most players and big guys 7+ years is way overs. The good players, think most top 10 draft picks and others say like an Elliott, Fasolo, Langdon (if we think Collingwood) become establised in the 22 pretty quickly. Look at players coming into the system form picks in the 20's where Broomy came, an occasional star who plays seniors early, some average to good players who generally take 2-3 seasons to get a best 22 spot and a fair few who dont make it or are depth players who never pin down a best 22 spot. Big guys take a little longer but I would think if you are not playing seniors by season 4 you probably don't become a regular AFL player.

Your example of Gault is interesting. Entering his 5th season in the AFL its really make or break. Good start with NAB 1, which is the easiest match of the season. Hope he can replicate this week but realistically he needs to do a fair bit this season to be considered for a spot on the list in 2017. I hope he can make his start count but unfortunately its more likely he will play the vast majority of the year in the VFL and be off the list at the end of the year. Thats what happens to most players in his position. Hope he is an exception.

Broomys position isnt as tough but he still needs to boost his output in 2016 to be sure of a spot in 2017. Its likely he will start the season in the VFL and as Howe and Elliott filter back positions will be tough to earn. Truth is most good footballers are showing more than Broomy by this stage and of the very good group who can go onto be the top guys at their club they are shining already. At Collingwood think De Goey, Moore, Langdon, Grundy, Aish who are same draft or younger and these are the group from where our next A graders are likely to appear.

I think we may have different views on this GC, which is fine because that is what makes this place so interesting.

Personally I see very few draftees making a mark in their first 3 years. Those that do are exceptional and are a minority - even top 10 picks. If new draftees are coming into your list and commanding best 22 spots in their first 2 - 3 seasons there is something wrong with your previous recruiting strategies. If you look at Geelong and Hawthorn over the last 5 - 10 years (Fremantle last 5) new players have struggled to make the first team and if they do it is because they earned it after proving themselves in the seconds.

That is how you build for sustained success. By having players who show potentially elite talent honing their craft and being mentored by the likes of Swan, Pendlebury and Sidebottom. Then when opportunity comes the way of someone like Kennedy (2014 and 2015) or Broomhead they fit in almost seamlessly. It should be a question of who misses out, not these guys are clearly better, pick them.

That way the performance of an individual during a game as less impact on the result of the team. The Pies are in the process of reducing the gap between our best and worst. Players like Broomhead buy into that knowing that at some stage if they work on improving their positives and reducing their deficiencies they will have a spot in a team that will achieve consistent results.

 

[Apex36]

You are the only one suggesting this. He didn't mention retaining old players once in his post. He was critical of the 2012/13 drafting. 2012 was a pass in my book but 2013 has hurt us (great late picks aside) because there were much better picks we overlooked in taking Freeman and Shaz.

Harsh assessment given neither have had a real opportunity to show what they're capable of. In 5 years we could be looking back and think that those two ended up being the pick of that draft despite their stalled starts to their careers.

 

[Mark W]

I think we may have different views on this GC, which is fine because that is what makes this place so interesting.

Personally I see very few draftees making a mark in their first 3 years.

Got to agree with this, there is much much gnashing of teeth on this thread cause a kid, whose career has been hampered by injury and has played a grand total of 19 games, had a quiet NAB cup game. ITs unsurprising a 19 gamer has been inconsistent in his AFL career to date. What do punters expect?

Jack Crisp did bugger all in his first 3 years in Brisbane, and was xlnt this year. Swanny managed 3 games his first 2 years, had 30 mediocre games under his belt after 4, till a breakthrough in 2006, year 5. Taylor Adams showed in his first 3 years that he was moderately good at finding the footy (averaging around 20 disposals) and terrible at disposing it. Both his numbers, and the quality of his disposals skyrocketed in year 4. Levi Greenwood had 4 modest years as a mid averaging sub 20 disposal games before a marked improvement in year 5 (with 46 games under the belt). Despite playing in pretty good Geelong sides, Varcoe's output was modest in his first 3 years, patchy in his next 5, and his best year was for us, last year, year 9.

So Broomhead's, progress to date is neither surprising or unusual. Particularly when you take into account the lack of continuity in his footy. Many players don't come good till year 4 or 5. Broomy is quick, uses the ball well, and has an eye for goals, and was dominating VFL games in his 2nd year. Im confident, with games under the belt and some continuity, he will be a very good player for us...

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

We have one dud from this draft in Kennedy and Broomhead threatens to add to the tally. He doesn't seem to play with any kind of intensity and contributes little for someone in his 4th season with the club. Having great skills is insufficient if you don't get the ball often enough to be damaging. He was a bit of a left field pick at the time and it's now apparent why he was not expected to be selected in the top 20. He has time to vindicate his selection but I think he will be lucky to be considered best 22 by the end of the season. Comparisons with Didak are a bit ridiculous given that Didak was regarded as the best smaller player in the draft and had an excitement to his play that I am yet to feel watching Broomhead.

 

[Apex36]

We have one dud from this draft in Kennedy and Broomhead threatens to add to the tally. He doesn't seem to play with any kind of intensity and contributes little for someone in his 4th season with the club. Having great skills is insufficient if you don't get the ball often enough to be damaging. He was a bit of a left field pick at the time and it's now apparent why he was not expected to be selected in the top 20. He has time to vindicate his selection but I think he will be lucky to be considered best 22 by the end of the season. Comparisons with Didak are a bit ridiculous given that Didak was regarded as the best smaller player in the draft and had an excitement to his play that I am yet to feel watching Broomhead.

Completely disagree with your assessment and think you're being overly harsh considering his run with illness and injury. It's pretty easy to forgets that he was close to establishing himself as genuine best 22 last year before he injured his shoulder.

 

[MarkT2]

This is the most accurate thing I have ever read from you.

Thanks jmac,
it's comforting to know that after 15 years and more than 10,000 posts I've got one right. Look out for my 2031 revelation.

 

[anshell]

I remember in the Hawthorn game last year he snapped a beautiful goal off the pack from about 45 metres out from goal.I remember thinking at the time that he's probably the only player on our list who could kick that type of crumbing goal.So I think he needs to be preserved with.He just needs a better run with injuries and to string five or six games in a row in the seniors to prove his worth.

 

[NT.Thunder]

he's been around a while and whilst he has had injuries, the clock is ticking.

I can see him being traded to SA at seasons end if he doesn't have a good year.

But for what?

If he has another poor year we can't expect anything for him really but I bet many will be calling for a late 1st rounder early second rounder based on potential. If any trade is based on potential wouldn't we be better off keeping him.

 

[jackcass]

Completely disagree with your assessment and think you're being overly harsh considering his run with illness and injury. It's pretty easy to forgets that he was close to establishing himself as genuine best 22 last year before he injured his shoulder.

Agree, 29 possessions in the intra-club was a good performance despite the fact he was quieter down at the cattery. Broomy would have been in contention for a round 1 senior berth and may well still be depending on how serious the shoulder issue is.

My only concern with Broomy is he doesn't work as hard defensively as he does offensively.

Way too early to make a call on Kennedy as well.

 

[pablo disco bar]

I remember in the Hawthorn game last year he snapped a beautiful goal off the pack from about 45 metres out from goal.I remember thinking at the time that he's probably the only player on our list who could kick that type of crumbing goal.So I think he needs to be preserved with.He just needs a better run with injuries and to string five or six games in a row in the seniors to prove his worth.

Can u post this goal?

 

[jmac70]

Thanks jmac,
it's comforting to know that after 15 years and more than 10,000 posts I've got one right. Look out for my 2031 revelation.

Hope we have won a flag by then.

 

[anshell]

Can u post this goal?

Sorry,i can't find it on the internet.Maybe Dave could find it somewhere,he's very good at doing that.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Sorry,i can't find it on the internet.Maybe Dave could find it somewhere,he's very good at doing that.

Find it and post it or it didn't happen. That's what I was told about the Chris Dawes interview in which he said he had been asked to move on. Given that Broomhead was selected with the pick 20 we got for Dawes, it seems reasonable to expect his admirers to produce evidence of this legendary feat.

 

[TW Sherrin]

But for what?

If he has another poor year we can't expect anything for him really but I bet many will be calling for a late 1st rounder early second rounder based on potential. If any trade is based on potential wouldn't we be better off keeping him.

early first round pick obviously

 

[jmac70]

Find it and post it or it didn't happen. That's what I was told about the Chris Dawes interview in which he said he had been asked to move on. Given that Broomhead was selected with the pick 20 we got for Dawes, it seems reasonable to expect his admirers to produce evidence of this legendary feat.

He did get a rising star award last year. Not sure if Dawes ever got one...

 

[TW Sherrin]

Agree, 29 possessions in the intra-club was a good performance despite the fact he was quieter down at the cattery. Broomy would have been in contention for a round 1 senior berth and may well still be depending on how serious the shoulder issue is.

My only concern with Broomy is he doesn't work as hard defensively as he does offensively.

Way too early to make a call on Kennedy as well.

kennedy kicking was terrible. fair call to move him. good for both parties.

broomhead has skills but looks soft and going through the motions sometimes.