and who will ruck for North in his place?
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 9 - Indigenous Round - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Recommitted Todd Goldstein
- Thread starter benbanjo
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Banned
- #202
Was there something wrong with this thread?
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/todd-goldstein.1070479/page-8
- Dec 2, 2014
- 19,281
- 32,841
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Delete or merge please mods.
- Banned
- #204
'Young' developing ruck Cal Sinclair who you traded last year turned 27 today, Goldy turns 29 on July 1 2017.
Nic Nat is 26 and will be coming off an ACL as a 27 year old who relies on his spring.
Marc_Remillard
Maderator
- Jan 4, 2015
- 6,783
- 7,711
- AFL Club
- Melbourne
Where did I say that Goldstein would 'fall off a cliff'?
You still haven't replied to that
- Banned
- #206
Goldstein is one of the 5 most valuable players in the comp?
I don't think many would agree with that.
Would be worth the Bulldogs first pick or a top ten pick plus a good first 22 player,
Really would be worth two first rounders between 10-14 and a fringe player to the dogs imo.
It's what they are missing
Really would be worth two first rounders between 10-14 and a fringe player to the dogs imo.
It's what they are missing
- Oct 3, 2012
- 12,950
- 25,098
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Good point. His age means there is only a few teams that would be willing to give up what hes worth.
Dogs lack a ruck, Cats dont have anything to trade for him, Hawks are going for other players already, GWS already have Mumford, Swans maybe could.
Dogs dont need draft picks desperately, an elite player like Goldstein would take their weakest area and make it top 4 in the comp.
100action
Norm Smith Medallist
For his age I'd say a pick between 10 and 15.
Those saying 5 years of quality service, that is overly optimistic.
Those saying 5 years of quality service, that is overly optimistic.
- Banned
- #210
His value is determined by what a club is willing to pay.
Not what you, others or I think.
Think of it like a Monet... You have 1 interested party and it's value is $10m, but you have two Russian oligarchs competing and a Chinese billionaire who wants to buy it for his daughter and it could easily be 'worth' $25m.
He is worth a lot more to some clubs than he would be to the big birds because you already have a top 5 ruck in the comp. Well you had, whether he returns to that mantle is debatable given the reliance on his spring post ACL.
My assertion is if he played for the Gold Coast in 2017, they would make finals and if he went to the dogs, they would be $4 for the 2017 flag.
If he left us, we'd absolutely finish bottom 4.
I'm not sure some of you quite grasp the concept of value.
Correct.
I'd happily take Stringer and their 1st.
- Banned
- #211
Of course. And how does that make him top 5?
This analogy is unnecessary. Do you think you're revealing some hidden truth here?
Of course trade value is tied to what another party is willing to give up. I don't see how that puts Goldstein in the top 5.
His value is determined by what a club is willing to pay. Not what you, others or I think. Sound familiar?
Rubbish. It's perfectly straightforward. You've just pulled 'top five' out of thin air and then added some other baseless assertions.
Don't try to tell people they don't understand the 'concept of value', as though it's so nuanced and complicated, when you're just waffling.
- Banned
- #212
He was the 2nd best player in the game last year.
Finished 2nd in AFL MVP voting.
He split up with his missus leaving 3 kids at home and had a down year.
On official player ranking he is currently @ #6
Waffle or no waffle, I haven't called your assessment incorrect, you're entilted to your own opinion but I think if all players were lined up against the wall and 2 captains were selecting their teams he would go in the first 5.
The only people who are questioning this are Melbourne fans (Gawn) and Big bird fans (Nic Nat).
Most other supporters accept he is the top handful of footballers in the game.
- Banned
- #214
http://m.afl.com.au/stats/player-ratings/overall-standings
Do you really think JPK and Gray are more valuable?
Please.
- Banned
- #215
Why is any of this relevant?
The "official player ranking"? Are you kidding? What does his domestic situation have to do with anything?
Just so we're clear, we're talking about his trade value, right? And you reckon he's top 5 in the league in terms of trade value?
Again, I thought we were talking about his trade value. Have I got that wrong?
What happened to your line that: "His value is determined by what a club is willing to pay. Not what you, others or I think."
Apparently you've shelved that for an imaginary scenario where we're picking teams in the playground. At least be consistent.
What complete rubbish.
You claimed he is one of the five most valuable players in the league, bleated some banalities about the 'concept of value' and then simply restated your view in a couple of different ways without substantiating it at all.
Last edited:
- Banned
- #216
Wait, is your whole argument based on that list?
If so, who has higher trade value out of Matt Priddis and Tom Lynch from the Suns? Who has a higher trade value out of Dayne Zorko and Jesse Hogan? What does your magic list say?
I haven't mentioned JPK or Gray. Why rebut a suggestion I never made? Is it easier for you that way?
- Banned
- #217
I love your prose... You write well!
Mazel Tov to you and schkoyach to you and all your extended family.
He went into the year as the highest ranked player on Supercoach.. That works for me, how's that?
But I'm not sure how else anyone can measure the value of a player other than a combination of independant sources:
1. Official player ratings
2. MVP voting from the previous season
3. Average supercoach scores
Yes it's all arbitrary, but so is your opinion.
He is IMO, worth 2 x top 10 selections. He is contracted and if another team wants him they would have to pay overs in order to get him, irrespective of your own opinion, notwithstanding the fact that you argue your irrelevant point very well.
The fact is, there is not a definitive measure of a players worth until after the point at which they are traded or selected in the draft.
That's as definitive as you are going to get... Do I need to get the general counsel in to go over my post in order to clear this up further, your honour?
No, Good.
The ratings are based on the last 3 years, not a single season. So yes, there are some parculiar rankings, but if Danger is at 1, it's clearly on the right track.
The defence rests.
- Banned
- #218
Sorry, are you now using SuperCoach ratings to determine trade value? Are you kidding?
You started by bleating about the 'concept of value' and how it is determined by what another club would give up in exchange. Now you're talking about SuperCoach. It's hilarious.
But you already established that trade value is determined by what another club would give up in exchange.
You said the opposite previously.
Again, we're talking about trade value, right? We're talking about what another club would give up in return. So what does SuperCoach have to do with anything?
You say he's worth two top 10 selections but really you're just pulling that out of thin air. That would be a lot for a guy who will turn 29 next year.
But your absurd emphasis on SuperCoach ratings and the "official player ratings" doesn't take age into account, does it? Don't you think that's a bit of a problem given that age is a factor in determining trade value?
I would argue Fyfe, Bontempelli, Hogan, Lynch and Dangerfield all have higher trade value than Goldstein. That's five right there.
Sure. That doesn't make SuperCoach scores a justifiable gauge.
No need for general counsel. But it would help if you didn't contradict yourself or completely ignore the age of players, despite it being an obvious factor in determining trade value. So maybe you do need general counsel after all?
Is this a joke?
You agree with the guy at No.1 so that automatically makes the rest of the rankings a sensible guide to trade value?
So Priddis over Lynch and Zorko over Hogan. That's solid. Can't argue with that.
I'd like to hear more from you about the 'concept of value' because your views are clearly finely honed on that subject.
Last edited:
- Banned
- #219
Mate it's not an exam, you simply asked how does one determine value, I've given you a whole bunch of independent data on how one would evaluate a players worth.
That is all... I don't have a magic dice..
Neither of us can be proven correct or incorrect, so it's all just a waste of bandwith.
GWS offered two top 10's for Stevie J a few years ago, based on that, I'm prepared to believe that Goldsteins value at a similar age to SJ is considerably more than what you think it is.
And that's OK.
You are entitled to think he is worth a late first rounder and fringe player, if that is what you believe.
He turned 28 on July 1. Not exactly an old man, could still have 7 seasons left.
Prochard123
Norm Smith Medallist
- Jul 28, 2014
- 7,147
- 5,773
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
Let me add to the list, assuming the buy er has no list deficiency.
-Fyfe
-Bontempelli
-Hogan
-Lynch
-Dangerfield
-Sloane
-Talia
-Weitering
-Cripps
-Pendlebury
-Moore
-Treloar
-Neale
-Cameron
-Shiel
-Greene
-Conigilio
-Lobb
-Gunston
-Petracca
-Brayshaw
-Viney
-Gawn
-Wines
-Gray
-Martin
-Rance
-Hannebury
-Parker
-Rampe
-Franklin
-Gaff
-Mcgovern
-Naitanui
-Both Kennedys
-Tom Boyd
-Mills
-Heeney
Essentially every young gun will beat Goldstein in terms of trade value given Goldstein has 3 more elite years TOPS. It's a consensus to 99% of supporters that rucks have their prime years between 25-29 (except that one North supporter I cant remember who). Just look at how quickly players like Minson, Maric dropped off despite being top 5 rucks not long ago. Young high KPF and KPD picks especially beat Goldstein in value. Coleman medelist contenders will also exceed Goldstein's value such as Franklin and Kennedy. Goldstein at this stage is probably worth a pick in the 6-12 range, nothing more. If he was 25, maybe 2 first rounders may seem reasonable, but even then 2 1st rounders for a ruck?
- Banned
- #221
But in your opening treatise about the 'concept of value', you already established that value is determined by what another club would be willing to give up in exchange. And I agree - that goes without saying.
So I don't know why you're now talking about SuperCoach scores when you already outlined that trade value is determined by what another party would offer in return.
That seems like a weird climbdown when you were so smug in the first place about other people not understanding the 'concept of value'. Apparently you didn't even understand your own statements because you're now making an entirely different argument.
I'll settle for pointing out that your arguments are nonsensical and contradictory.
You're just pulling things out of thin air again. Not sure what Stevie J has to do with it or how this demonstrates that Goldstein is one of the five most valuable players in the league.
I don't recall making any statement to this effect.
I did, however, list five players who I contend have higher trade value than Goldstein, which you've ignored.
Like I said, he'll be 29 next year. But for some reason you omit age entirely from your assessment of trade value. It's a bizarre oversight.
Bulldog1954
Brownlow Medallist
Veteran
10k Posts
BeanCoiNFT Investor
SuperCoach Club Board Championship League Member
Western Bulldogs - Honeychurch/Austin/Prudden Player Sponsor 2014
Western Bulldogs - Christian Howard/Mark Austin Player Sponsor 2013
Western Bulldogs - Christian Howard/Mark Austin 2012 Player Sponsor
Western Bulldogs - Ryan Hargrave 2007 Player Sponsor
Like Maric, Minson and Jamar this year?
- Sep 9, 2003
- 27,578
- 28,760
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- FGR
No, not like those players.
He's a fantastic player but North won't get real value due to age and by his standards a poor year. It's a bit like Deledio, every team would take him but he doesn't have many productive seasons left so the price isn't going to meet expectations.
- Banned
- #225
Sweet Jesus
On June 30 2019, what will Goldstein's age be?
Ie: the 3rd year of a new contract should he be traded in this trade period.
If you think that AGE is relevant in this discussion about Goldstein you're kidding yourself.
Yes..he will be 30.
Suggesting age is a a factor re: Goldstein is disingenuous.
Was Dean Cox any good in 2011 or 2012?
On June 30 2019, what will Goldstein's age be?
Ie: the 3rd year of a new contract should he be traded in this trade period.
If you think that AGE is relevant in this discussion about Goldstein you're kidding yourself.
Yes..he will be 30.
Suggesting age is a a factor re: Goldstein is disingenuous.
Was Dean Cox any good in 2011 or 2012?
