Tom Hawkins 350 games - What is his standing in the game?

[SuperMal]

Seasonal avges

Hawkins - Games 350 - Marks 5.4, Goals 2.3, HO 1.7

N Riewoldt - Games 338 - M 8.8, G 2.1, HO 1.2

Kernahan - Games 251 - M 7, G 2.9, HO 1.8

I’ve always said Hawkins was a reasonably good fwd, but not elite - this proves it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Seasonal avges

Hawkins - Games 350 - Marks 5.4, Goals 2.3, HO 1.7

N Riewoldt - Games 338 - M 8.8, G 2.1, HO 1.2

Kernahan - Games 251 - M 7, G 2.9, HO 1.8

I’ve always said Hawkins was a reasonably good fwd, but not elite - this proves it.

Kernahan played in an era of 100-goal forwards and 80-goal CHFs so his figures are absolutely irrelevant.

Riewoldt was one of the best forwards of the millennium so what’s your point?

‘Hawkins has similar numbers and does it taking less marks than one of his contemporaries’

 

[SuperMal]

Kernahan played in an era of 100-goal forwards and 80-goal CHFs so his figures are absolutely irrelevant.

Riewoldt was one of the best forwards of the millennium so what’s your point?

‘Hawkins has similar numbers and does it taking less marks than one of his contemporaries’

You’re talking about goal square players who led fast to the ball.

Kernahan played the majority of his football btwn FF & true CHF - if you think the game has changed so much that this type of role is irrelevant - I recommend you watch a few of Tex Walker/Daniher/McKay/King/Jackson games.

Of course now you’ll split hairs over each players game style- but the reality is there’s very little difference between the way Hawkins gets the ball and the way Kernahan did - short leads out to the wing or flank…..or standing under a bomb going one to one.

I’m sorry my point with Riewoldt went over your head - it was to show that playing 50 ggames less than not 1 but 2 ‘perceived champions’ shows what a truly elite player can do….and why neither Hawkins or Riewoldt should be put in the Kernahan/Carey/Hart stratosphere.

 

[PhatBoy]

You’re talking about goal square players who led fast to the ball.

Kernahan played the majority of his football btwn FF & true CHF - if you think the game has changed so much that this type of role is irrelevant - I recommend you watch a few of Tex Walker/Daniher/McKay/King/Jackson games.

Of course now you’ll split hairs over each players game style- but the reality is there’s very little difference between the way Hawkins gets the ball and the way Kernahan did - short leads out to the wing or flank…..or standing under a bomb going one to one.

Ok mate he’s not elite.

 

[SuperMal]

Ok mate he’s not elite.

He’s not. Unless you think he’s produced the same quality of football as Carey? Or Ablett? Or Brereton?

 

[PhatBoy]

He’s not. Unless you think he’s produced the same quality of football as Carey? Or Ablett? Or Brereton?

Sorry two of those guys are widely considered among the best 10 players of all time.

You’re saying that out of 16,000+ AFL/VFL players, you need to be among the best 10 to be elite?


Not sure where you plucked Brereton from. Seems an odd comparison.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

Second best forward of this generation behind Buddy.

Brilliant player over such a long period.

 

[BringFevBack2021]

He isn’t behind Fev. That’s crazy

Fev was brilliant individually but Hawkins is a way better team player with a way better career

For mine, Hawkins is up there as one of the better 350 gamers. They’re all amazing obviously, but it’s the consistency that gets me.

He is good for 2-3 a game and has been for his entire career. Not only that, he provides assists and is the player his team moves the ball around. The smalls are dictated by his movement, the midfield moves around him. He is a figurehead and honestly, he looks like he could play next year if he wanted to. He looks like he could play multiple seasons if he wanted.

 

[Catsnlakers]

Seasonal avges

Hawkins - Games 350 - Marks 5.4, Goals 2.3, HO 1.7

N Riewoldt - Games 338 - M 8.8, G 2.1, HO 1.2

Kernahan - Games 251 - M 7, G 2.9, HO 1.8

I’ve always said Hawkins was a reasonably good fwd, but not elite - this proves it.

He is universally seen as a top 3 forward since the start of this millennium, in my eyes (but of course I’m biased) he is second after Buddy. If that doesn’t enable a guy to be “elite” nothing will, and just on stats, soon enough Hawkins will become the only guy in league history to be an 800 goal forward, with 300 goal assists (second all time), add to the fact he’s top 2 all time in contested marking & you’re looking at an out an out champion of the game.

 

[Catsnlakers]

He’s not. Unless you think he’s produced the same quality of football as Carey? Or Ablett? Or Brereton?

Gary Ablett and Wayne Carey are better than elite, they’re top 5 players of all time. Legends of the game. Dermott is not in that bracket, I’d say Hawkins sits alongside Dermott for quality and importance, but remember that footy is played so much differently now, there’s a strong case to suggest if Hawkins played in the 80-90’s like Derm he’d be a 1000 goal forward.

 

[SuperMal]

He is universally seen as a top 3 forward since the start of this millennium, in my eyes (but of course I’m biased) he is second after Buddy. If that doesn’t enable a guy to be “elite” nothing will, and just on stats, soon enough Hawkins will become the only guy in league history to be an 800 goal forward, with 300 goal assists (second all time), add to the fact he’s top 2 all time in contested marking & you’re looking at an out an out champion of the game.

Id say he was nothing close to top 3 until Geelong won their premiership under Thompson - his improvement has been steady but certainly not top class in the 1st half of his career - and having a game plan structured around the cattery has certainly helped.

How will he be the only ‘800 goal fwd’….not sure what you mean there?

And how long have contested marks been a stat - although I confess I’m surprised by this anyway.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

 

[SuperMal]

Gary Ablett and Wayne Carey are better than elite, they’re top 5 players of all time. Legends of the game. Dermott is not in that bracket, I’d say Hawkins sits alongside Dermott for quality and importance, but remember that footy is played so much differently now, there’s a strong case to suggest if Hawkins played in the 80-90’s like Derm he’d be a 1000 goal forward.

Top 10 of all time I consider elite.

A lot of people would not consider Kernahan in the top 10 - but that would certainly rule out Hawkins and Riewoldt.

 

[Catsnlakers]

Id say he was nothing close to top 3 until Geelong won their premiership under Thompson - his improvement has been steady but certainly not top class in the 1st half of his career - and having a game plan structured around the cattery has certainly helped.

How will he be the only ‘800 goal fwd’….not sure what you mean there?

And how long have contested marks been a stat - although I confess I’m surprised by this anyway.

The 800 goal forward comment was alongside the fact he’s about to reach 300 goal assists, Eg he’s kicked an enormous amount himself, whilst being the most unselfish of all players in his position.

 

[SuperMal]

Gary Ablett and Wayne Carey are better than elite, they’re top 5 players of all time. Legends of the game. Dermott is not in that bracket, I’d say Hawkins sits alongside Dermott for quality and importance, but remember that footy is played so much differently now, there’s a strong case to suggest if Hawkins played in the 80-90’s like Derm he’d be a 1000 goal forward.

The 800 goal forward comment was alongside the fact he’s about to reach 300 goal assists, Eg he’s kicked an enormous amount himself, whilst being the most unselfish of all players in his position.

Thats a very strong point in his favour.

My feelings on Brereton are based on the # of times I saw him take a game by the throat and literally dismantle a back line with pace, aggression and strength of will - very few players except Matthews, Carey, Ablett and Franklin could do it as well - not even Lockett or Kernahan or Dunstall - and certainly not Hawkins, Walker or Riewoldt

 

[PhatBoy]

Id say he was nothing close to top 3 until Geelong won their premiership under Thompson - his improvement has been steady but certainly not top class in the 1st half of his career - and having a game plan structured around the cattery has certainly helped.

How will he be the only ‘800 goal fwd’….not sure what you mean there?

And how long have contested marks been a stat - although I confess I’m surprised by this anyway.

The Cattery is an excuse for his success?

Well goal-wise he averages a massive 0.18 goals more there than he does everywhere else…… and he’s played 117 games there and 243 everywhere else. So yeah, it’s had a huge impact, being able to play one third of his career games on the ground where he kicks an extra 5th of a goal per match.

Their premiership under Thompson? Do you mean Scott?
What are you talking about? We won in 07 and 09 under Thompson, Hawkins played in 09. We won in 11 under Scott and 2022 under Scott, Hawkins playing in both.

 

[SuperMal]

The Cattery is an excuse for his success?

Well goal-wise he averages a massive 0.18 goals more there than he does everywhere else…… and he’s played 117 games there and 243 everywhere else. So yeah, it’s had a huge impact, being able to play one third of his career games on the ground where he kicks an extra 5th of a goal per match.

Their premiership under Thompson? Do you mean Scott?
What are you talking about? We won in 07 and 09 under Thompson, Hawkins played in 09. We won in 11 under Scott and 2022 under Scott, Hawkins playing in both.

Sigh…..Some wonderful research there - but ultimately there have been a significant number of better fwds in the game - enough to ensure he is not and never will be in the top 10.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sigh…..Some wonderful research there - but ultimately there have been a significant number of better fwds in the game - enough to ensure he is not and never will be in the top 10.

Again, the game has been going for 126 years. Being not in the top 10 players, or forwards, does not make you not elite.

Each year there are roughly 500 players that play AFL football. The afl picks a team of 22 as All Australians. That’s 4.5 per cent of players.

I would consider being All Australian as a sign that you’ve had an elite season.

So out of 16,000 players - it’s more now I can’t remember the exact figure but it’s somewhere between 16-17k I think that have played AFL/VFL, 4.5 per cent works out to 720 players.

that’s 32 teams worth of AFL footballers to cover the top 4.5 per cent of players to ever reach AFL/VFL level. If you were to pick ONLY 2 key forwards in each of those teams, you’re saying that you couldn’t find room for Tom Hawkins among those 64 players. That’s if you ONLY picked two key forwards. No Ablett’s on flanks, Franklins in pockets, Pavlich at CHB etc etc.

Even if you halved it to say that only the top half of the AA 22 are elite, and therefore only the best 2.25 per cent of players are elite, and as such you couldn’t find room for him in the best 32 forwards?


You have the strictest definition of elite I have ever come across in team sport

 

[SuperMal]

Again, the game has been going for 126 years. Being not in the top 10 players, or forwards, does not make you not elite.

Each year there are roughly 500 players that play AFL football. The afl picks a team of 22 as All Australians. That’s 4.5 per cent of players.

I would consider being All Australian as a sign that you’ve had an elite season.

So out of 16,000 players - it’s more now I can’t remember the exact figure but it’s somewhere between 16-17k I think that have played AFL/VFL, 4.5 per cent works out to 720 players.

that’s 32 teams worth of AFL footballers to cover the top 4.5 per cent of players to ever reach AFL/VFL level. If you were to pick ONLY 2 key forwards in each of those teams, you’re saying that you couldn’t find room for Tom Hawkins among those 64 players. That’s if you ONLY picked two key forwards. No Ablett’s on flanks, Franklins in pockets, Pavlich at CHB etc etc.

Even if you halved it to say that only the top half of the AA 22 are elite, and therefore only the best 2.25 per cent of players are elite, and as such you couldn’t find room for him in the best 32 forwards?


You have the strictest definition of elite I have ever come across in team sport

 

[SuperMal]

You’ll get over it.

 

[The King!]

Saw his Debut randomly in person (don't live in Victoria was just lucky )

He was marked pretty harshly initially .

I think he has probably underrated and slipped under the radar with other forwards like Buddy about and his own superstar teammates?

Because I think he is actually one of the best tall forwards to play the game. Not many can stop him . Arguing the 2022 grand final was basically done when he bullied Hickey in the first quarter to goal.

 

[Catsnlakers]

I think he is actually one of the best tall forwards to play the game. Not many can stop him . Arguing the 2022 grand final was basically done when he bullied Hickey in the first quarter to goal.

He has been a crucial (arguably deciding) factor in our last two premierships, he started off win the first two goals to set the tone in the 2022 GF, and his second half in the 2011 GF was the difference no doubt about it, so being a big game player provides another reason why he’s an all time great.

 

[The King!]

He has been a crucial (arguably deciding) factor in our last two premierships, he started off win the first two goals to set the tone in the 2022 GF, and his second half in the 2011 GF was the difference no doubt about it, so being a big game player provides another reason why he’s an all time great.

Agree

 

[mumblingpie]

On par with the likes of J.Riewold and Kennedy.

Below the likes of Lloyd, Richo, Fev, Pav, and N.Riewoldt.

lol Hawkins standing in the game is definitely higher then Fevs

 

[Lunchtime]

Seasonal avges

Hawkins - Games 350 - Marks 5.4, Goals 2.3, HO 1.7

N Riewoldt - Games 338 - M 8.8, G 2.1, HO 1.2

Kernahan - Games 251 - M 7, G 2.9, HO 1.8

I’ve always said Hawkins was a reasonably good fwd, but not elite - this proves it.

Hawkins, Jack and Nick Riewoldt and Josh Kennedy would of had a higher goal per game Average if they played in the 1980s or prior to that I think.