Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[Dogsman16]

Either staying put or trading up would be a risk, and that's the nature of a risk I guess. You'll always regret the wrong choice. If we trade up for McCartin and he turns out to be a dud, and Lever turns out to be a 250 game backline general, I'll be massively pissed.

Yet Lever could have constant knee injuries whilst McCartin becomes a star. Massive risk either way know. Don't think we can take the risk again of going to short in a finals series.

 

[Dogsman16]

Either staying put or trading up would be a risk, and that's the nature of a risk I guess. You'll always regret the wrong choice. If we trade up for McCartin and he turns out to be a dud, and Lever turns out to be a 250 game backline general, I'll be massively pissed.

Same if we trade Hrovat and he reaches the potential I suspect he has.

Wallis is the man I'd be using, not Hrovat we need the ball use Hrovat provides and outside run he can offer. Picken can come and tag for another couple of seasons.

 

[Tommycash]

It beggars belief that we would be losing 3 players this year who want to move, are rumoured to be losing a fourth and people are trying to trade out some young guns who want to stay?

 

[Wilfork]

Mentioned this trade a couple of times, it really comes down to what people are prefered to have happen in each worse case scenario. Are we less happy to see Hrovat/Wallis become a good player somewhere else and our KPF doesn't turn out the way we wanted, or we get to a prelim and once again we lack another tall option apart from Stringer deep forward, as teams no doubt will identify to drop off their man and protect the space in front of him.

I am not into the whole romaticism of F/S picks as surely when we had pick 14 in 2008 we should have been looking to trade it for a KPF option rather than the 20 games in which 1 or 2 have been at AFL standard from ayce. We can't miss out on another KPF any longer, we have one but the best sides always have 2.

Interested to see peoples thoughts on this, who wants to take the risk and who doesn't.

It's absolutely worth the risk and I'd go as far as saying that it'd be irresponsible to not move up in the draft and go for a KPF if the opportunity's there at a reasonable price. I'd hate to see either of those players go, but I want a flag, not another 300-gamer midfielder's banner in the rafters at Etihad.

 

[Metal]

The concentration on who we might be parting with has to come with a consideration of who we are getting. Losing Cooney will not assist us when general consensus is that we really are a one paced team. I think that if we are considering such a move, we bloody well better have our eye on some certainties with Cooney's knowledge and burst speed.

 

[Mutt]

Yet Lever could have constant knee injuries whilst McCartin becomes a star. Massive risk either way know. Don't think we can take the risk again of going to short in a finals series.

Drafting is a futures market - when you participate you take a risk that the future doesn't turn out the way you planned and hoped.

I trade the financial futures markets for a living. If I knew with absolute certainty the future value of just one asset, I'd soon be richer than god. Same with sports trading: if the recruiters and list managers knew with 100% certainty which players would go on to be stars, their club could never be defeated.

 

[Dogsman16]

Drafting is a futures market - when you participate you take a risk that the future doesn't turn out the way you planned and hoped.

I trade the financial futures markets for a living. If I knew with absolute certainty the future value of just one asset, I'd soon be richer than god. Same with sports trading: if the recruiters and list managers knew with 100% certainty which players would go on to be stars, their club could never be defeated.

Agree with that entirely. In my mind I have made up that we just have to land another KPF and McCartin is the man who takes marks of a contested variety. Macca said that's the first thing we will look for in the offseason. Theres no man better than McCartin. I pray we can do it with picks and I'l consider J Mac a genius if he can. If he can get rid of the dead wood and get that late first rounder we need to get pick 6 to 2 then everything will be worthwhile. Risk it all for the best shot. McCartin is the key.

 

[TedDougChris]

Guys, don't forget that we aren't going to fix ALL our problems in this one trade/draft period. It's just not going to happen.

We need a quality side, across the park and with depth in all areas. We're getting all the pieces in place, and might be looking towards next year for landing the KPF we all desire. Would you rather have Hrovat, Lever/Durdin and one of Carlisle/Cameron - or McMartin/Wright and none of the others ??

We're playing a long term game here.

 

[Flash86]

Fronk, are those photos taken today?
Cause if so, then we would be almost expecting a trade to go down today yeah?
I don't care what club trades with who at the moment. I just wanna see a trade go down. It's been a nothing week so far. So much talk and no action. Free agency was pretty straight forward. only real surprise for me was Malcheski (however u spell it) going to suns.

I would be happy if we could just trade Cooney and Jones to Carlton for pick 28. And ideally not giving up our 3rd rounder.
Can't offer 4th rounder. They would of probably given a 4th round pick for Tutt. So why not just Cooney, Jones and Tutt for pick 28?

I would still do the 3rd round pick, Cooney and Jones for a 2nd round pick but think we are paying overs.

I think if we can turn our wantaway players into a 2nd round pick that be good. And is cooney in our best 22 next year? I don't think he is. He will get a game cause he has these little moments when he does great things which other players can't do, but most of games he just goes missing. his strength was his speed and burst from the packs. Can't do that anymore so is pretty much just a average footballer. his foot skills are good. But since he has no pace, he needs to be a contested ball player which he is not. He is a outside player who isn't quick anymore. 1 or 2 times a game he might do this quick run, but then he got for ages.

Get us pick 28 from carlton. Then we are in great form for another trade, or even draft. Even if we don't trade for a top 3 pick, we will have pick 6, pick 26, pick 27 and pick 28. That's like Brisbane last year.

 

[Dogsman16]

Guys, don't forget that we aren't going to fix ALL our problems in this one trade/draft period. It's just not going to happen.

We need a quality side, across the park and with depth in all areas. We're getting all the pieces in place, and might be looking towards next year for landing the KPF we all desire. Would you rather have Hrovat, Lever/Durdin and one of Carlisle/Cameron - or McMartin/Wright and none of the others ??

We're playing a long term game here.

We aren't really at great odds in landing a Cameron/Carlisle next year, I am very hopefull but players we mentioned like a Hrovat + our first pick are going to have to be used to get a Cameron type + even more they would make us bleed for him. I'm hoping we can use picks to get us pick 2 for McCartin, Wallis I am happy to use as well to get us the upgrades we need. Hrovat not so much.

 

[Cave_Man]

Agree with that entirely. In my mind I have made up that we just have to land another KPF and McCartin is the man who takes marks of a contested variety. Macca said that's the first thing we will look for in the offseason. Theres no man better than McCartin. I pray we can do it with picks and I'l consider J Mac a genius if he can. If he can get rid of the dead wood and get that late first rounder we need to get pick 6 to 2 then everything will be worthwhile. Risk it all for the best shot. McCartin is the key.

I'd be pretty happy with Wright. The flexibility of him being able to give a chop out in the ruck just seems more enticing.

 

[doggies ftw]

Good point, but I'm not convinced about the dour "contested ball" bulldogs style, though. It's kind of a mantra that's already going out of fashion.
I'm glad to see Gordon come out and support the coach (about time though?)
But I support and have faith generally in BM and his right to make big calls and set up how he thinks best.

The way I look at it is contested ball isn't a style, it's just a non negotiable, doesn't mean every player has to be an inside ball nut whose one aim is to win the ball, we need players on the outside too but when the ball is there to be own there's not always gonna be someone to feed it out to you so you've gotta get it yourself.

If you want to see our 'style' look at the VFL team, we've said that we want to emulate the same thing in both teams just it's much easier to implement it in the lower level.

Just think of lots of hard running, inside/outside mids and plenty of talls at both ends with a focus on winning every contest but still playing a fast paced, link up game style. It's shown through in a couple of games (Pies and GC this year) and it looks brilliant when it comes off, just obviously not often enough at this stage!

 

[Bulldog1954]

If we trade Coons and Jones to simply move up 17 spots in the draft I will feel like burning down Whitten Oval.

There is obviously something deeply wrong with our club at the moment with so many players wanting out

 

[Mattdougie]

You are the most negative peroson why do you think the bulldogs are so bad? Why are the recruiters so bad? If you think cooney is some sort of superstar and jones?? I think your the one that is deluded as well as half this board thinks you are. Why dont you take your negative Bul@$## and go and barrack for GWS. Seriously if hes a champion your easily pleased.

Your campaign to bugger off mcartney at times is fair but the way they are going about it isspot on.

Just tell me in what way is jones a loss as he wants to leave for apparently more oppertunity? Blokes pathetic VFL Leading Goal Kicker

Tutt never broke in for a game hardly at all....

Cooney will just leave next year anyway in FA looking for a flag why not move him on?? There is no point what so ever in keeping him.

Yep let's dump anyone who has given great service to the club coz rye may be near the end shall we!

Well why not Boyd murph Morris while we at it

Let's just become a recycling plant for players who can't perform to their higher level at older age and not show loyalty to blokes that deserve it.

Wow I guess ou blokes were happy seeing Dougy in a fitzroy jumper also even though he was done.

Clubs still need heart and this completely ruthless approach I do not like.

And for the record is rather a 39 year old Coobey with one leg opposed to Jong you will be dumped the second a new coach comes in.

 

[DognBones]

Point of order chaps.

At the present we have picks 6, 26 and 27. Picks 8 (Moore), 18 (Heeney) and 19 (Frawley) have already been used up. This means we will get 3 out of the best 22 players in the draft if we hold fire and just use these picks wisely. We are already in a very strong position so let's get this desperate trade talk out of the equation (except for Cooney who could get us yet another really good pick).

 

[Clay]

Trading out Hrovat out is short sighted. He's going to be very good for a long time. In my mind he's a blue chip A-grader.

 

[Mutt]

Agree with that entirely. In my mind I have made up that we just have to land another KPF and McCartin is the man who takes marks of a contested variety. Macca said that's the first thing we will look for in the offseason. Theres no man better than McCartin. I pray we can do it with picks and I'l consider J Mac a genius if he can. If he can get rid of the dead wood and get that late first rounder we need to get pick 6 to 2 then everything will be worthwhile. Risk it all for the best shot. McCartin is the key.

I understand all you've said and you make a good case. Just remember that not everyone will agree that it's a good idea - giving up a potential future Macrae (pick 6) plus Hrovat (or two future Hrovats if pick 25 is included) to get a chance (not a guarantee, just a chance) of drafting McCartin, who may or may not end up being a superstar.

We may be aiming to do what fronkalicious has been hinting at on here - loading up and waiting next season to lure a proven gun forward (or two) who comes out of contract.

I know that you know this, so I'm not trying to be patronising here, but we must all remember that the club's plan probably doesn't aim to fix all of our list issues in the 2014 draft and trade periods.

 

[Mattdougie]

Got to love how many people seem to know what the club, players and our recruiters are thinking.\

You say all this now, but I bet you'll be the first person to deliver the pats on the back when we get success.

Pathetic.

Really will I?

I've said numerous ones I will stand up and admit my mistakes IF what the club is doing works.

Will you stand up and apologise to me and others if it doesn't work??

Bet my left you won't mate.

4th pre season under this regime and NOW they do a full sweep !!

Wow talk about wasting 3 years

But I agree I'm actually so k if the negative my self, I will refrain until trade period is done and then we shall discuss.

Deal?

 

[goodcop badcop]

Going down the Melbourne path? I had to laugh at this. We still have an AFL captain with 10 years experience and a great support staff in Boyd, Morris, Murphy, Minson. Who did Melbourne have? They had a couple 20 year olds leading the club in Trengrove and Grimes with duds like Maloney in support. In comparison it would be like having Jackson Macrae and Clay Smith leading the club for next year.

We are going no where near the Melbourne path. If Boyd, Morris, Murphy retire next year we will still have an AFL captain with 10 years of experience and then we have guys like Libba, Wallis, Crameri, Wood and Roughead should be old enough to start moving into leadership roles. In fact some of those guys listed should be moving into leadership roles of some form this year if they haven't already.

Losing Cooney would be no great loss, both from a leadership stand point and a playing stand point. On the playing stand point, he was very lucky not to be dropped a few times this year, and let's face it, his form is most likely only going to go down hill from this point. From a leadership view point he didn't have a big role to play and going from some of his past antics nor should he.

If Cooney seems happy to go, then so be it. It's no good holding on to a player that's half hearted. Get whatever value we can get out of him and move on. Start afresh, try a new player that will buy into the culture.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Ok......my read on things at this stage.

The top 6 players all look pretty set in most Phantoms and amongst the experts in general and on here. Petracca, Brayshaw, McCartin, Lever, Laverde and Wright. I know we want a potential power forward youngster, but I'd be very happy with any of those although I'm least excited by Brayshaw to be honest.

It's highly likely that Wright will slip to us but I am not sure we'd take him, Wright like Grundy could be the big slipper. I reckon Lever is the one we want if McCartin is gone and Laverde woud be a great result. I am really not that interested in a trade of the pick 6 up or down I think it will cost too much for little overall benefit.

Would like an extra pick in the 20's to go with 25 and 26 because there are some good prospects all the way to 30 I think.

Cooney trade does not bother me in the slightest but it has to be a good deal. A pick in the 20's will do it for me. Now that it's clear he's up for trade I expect to see more than just the Blues interested. We should be able to get at least a pick in the 30's for Jones and I think Tutt will get us a pick anywhere from 50 to 70, or could be a sweetener for another deal.

We got Zaine Cordy for nothing, he was rated number 24 overall by Calum Twomey and we got him for 63!

I like the look of Caleb Daniel and Touke Miller, both being small counts against them but we'd be mad not to grab one of them. They have all the attributes you want in a player. Daniel in particular is freakish.

I do like Connor Menadue and I still like Kyle Langford and Tom Lamb but I have cooled a little on both. They are unlikely to be there in the 20's. There is a question mark on Lamb in terms of attitude, but it seems to be just hearsay.

Of the talls....well Matthew Hammelmann has stood out and Keitel is solid but I worry about the WA factor. Reece McKenzie seems a no brainer if we can grab him in the 20's. Seems unlikely.

I also think we will be looking for a mature age player or 2. Otherwise our list gets very very young.

That is my take on things to date.

 

[Mattdougie]

Got to love how many people seem to know what the club, players and our recruiters are thinking.\

You say all this now, but I bet you'll be the first person to deliver the pats on the back when we get success.

Pathetic.

Really will I?

I've said numerous ones I will stand up and admit my mistakes IF what the club is doing works.

Will you stand up and apologise to me and others if it doesn't work??

Bet my left you won't mate.

4th pre season under this regime and NOW they do a full sweep !!

Wow talk about wasting 3 years

But I agree I'm actually so k if the negative my self, I will refrain until trade period is done and then we shall discuss.

Deal?

 

[Dogsman16]

I understand all you've said and you make a good case. Just remember that not everyone will agree that it's a good idea - giving up a potential future Macrae (pick 6) plus Hrovat (or two future Hrovats if pick 25 is included) to get a chance (not guarantee, just a chance) of drafting McCartin, who may or may not end up being a superstar.

We may be aiming to do what fronkalicious has been hinting at on here - loading up and waiting next season to lure a proven gun forward (or two) who comes out of contract.

I know that you know this, so I'm not trying to be patronising here, but we must all remember that the club's plan probably doesn't aim to fix all of our list issues in the 2014 draft and trade periods.

Its a risk either way, I don't want to get rid of Hrovat at all, as I said I want it to be through picks/older players to get us that prized pick 2. We have a great developing midfield arguably the envy of the competition, lets build a forward line of similar ability too. If we can't get it done by the method I just described then I am 50/50 on using a Wallis and heavily against using Hrovat to do it. I have changed my mind several times but my mind has constantly thought that getting pick 2 is our shot at building the team we need.

 

[Nath09]

Really will I?

I've said numerous ones I will stand up and admit my mistakes IF what the club is doing works.

Will you stand up and apologise to me and others if it doesn't work??

Bet my left you won't mate.

4th pre season under this regime and NOW they do a full sweep !!

Wow talk about wasting 3 years

But I agree I'm actually so k if the negative my self, I will refrain until trade period is done and then we shall discuss.

Deal?

Take the deal. For the love of God TAKE THE DEAL!!!

 

[Flash86]

Just read Kyle Hardingham wants out. It is on the age. He is one of the 34 players who have a show cause notice given to him.
26 years of age.
I know its Essendon and are impossible to deal with.
but would anyone be interested?

 

[Zephiisdaman]

Trading out Hrovat out is short sighted. He's going to be very good for a long time. In my mind he's a blue chip A-grader.

He will be a good player but he isn't going to be a blue chip A grader. If we can get a better for "us" going forward then it isn't short sighted. Not trading him is actually short -sighted, this is where people have to understand something. If you offer rubbish other clubs are not going to offer a diamond. If you offer a diamond then the chances are a diamond will come back. We have to respect the whole process otherwise we will be like Essendon who nobody wants to trade with.