Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Virgin Dog]

Makes me laugh even more thinking about the number of nuffies on this board saying shit like "trust me guy, Kelly has made a verbal offer", "trust me guys, Kelly and Bont are gay lovers and want to play together", "trust me guys, we're a destination club, he's coming here"

Kelly was never coming to the Dogs. It was 90% GWS, 10% any other club (except North)

 

[Cadillac]

If Jamie Elliott stays fit all year, I'd be going after him. Won't cost us a draft pick and will only be 27 when next season starts. Might be hard to wrench outta the black and white but think he'd be pretty handy for us.

We have the worst medico’s in the league. Unless we were offering him 400k a year more than anybody else, why would he even consider it?

 

[Yojimbo]

Makes me laugh even more thinking about the number of nuffies on this board saying shit like "trust me guy, Kelly has made a verbal offer", "trust me guys, Kelly and Bont are gay lovers and want to play together", "trust me guys, we're a destination club, he's coming here"

Kelly was never coming to the Dogs. It was 90% GWS, 10% any other club (except North)

You have to come to the stark realization that most of the players who have come to the Dogs are either seen
as not best 22 by their former clubs and therefore expendable or have some sort of homesick issues. Look at
what we coughed up for Boyd, Kelly would cost more than the current Captain and pick 6. Of all the spit outs
from the expansion clubs not many have improved as players and quite a few are barely hanging on to their
current list spots.

 

[BRWB]

You have to come to the stark realization that most of the players who have come to the Dogs are either seen
as not best 22 by their former clubs and therefore expendable or have some sort of homesick issues. Look at
what we coughed up for Boyd, Kelly would cost more than the current Captain and pick 6. Of all the spit outs
from the expansion clubs not many have improved as players and quite a few are barely hanging on to their
current list spots.

We have also picked up the odd aging star like Winmar, Hall and Aker. But as you say often players were rejected by their old clubs.

We arent a destination club and talk of putting aside cap for Kelly or that Kelly was our mysterious big fish was always fanciful.

As 16 showed recruiting stars in their prime is not a pre requisite for a flag but I would suggest recruiting guns in their prime is absolutely a requirement for sustained success that includes regular finals and multiple flags.

Interesting if we can break the mold.

​

​

With the development and emergence of Schache, Naughton and English (with Boyd and Trengove as.backups and a gun mid grp) I would suggest that if we could recruit a gun key back in his prime and a gun sm fwd, we could just about win the flag as early as next yr.​

​

​

Next yr we should 100% roll.the dice to pick up a good key back and sm fwd via draft pick trading and FA.​

​

The time is now and it will be interesting to see if the club can break from its past and attract a gun in their prime. I suspect we wont but that we may be able.to attact a good player in his prime or an aging champ.​

​

A good test for Power.​

 

[Yojimbo]

We have also picked up the odd aging star like Winmar, Hall and Aker. But as you say often players were rejected by their old clubs.

We arent a destination club and talk of putting aside cap for Kelly or that Kelly was our mysterious big fish was always fanciful.

As 16 showed recruiting stars in their prime is not a pre requisite for a flag but I would suggest recruiting guns in their prime is absolutely a requirement for sustained success that includes regular finals and multiple flags.

Interesting if we can break the mold.

​

​

With the development and emergence of Schache, Naughton and English (with Boyd and Trengove as.backups and a gun mid grp) I would suggest that if we could recruit a gun key back in his prime and a gun sm fwd, we could just about win the flag as early as next yr.​

Most sustained success in terms of flags is build on a solid core of players or solid foundation obtained through drafting,
sometimes that continuity of success needs a boost or subtle change in thinking or positioning. Geelong this year so
far are a good example, I did not think Dahlhaus and Rohan would have a big impact, but when you throw round the
players and make people play different roles boom there it is, will it be sustained can the big heads handle lesser
roles we will have to wait and see. The subtle understanding of what makes a player the perfect fit for your list is
something we have lacked over time, but a lot of that was based on the financial image of the club at the time.

 

[D Mitchell]

.... 16 showed recruiting stars in their prime is not a pre requisite for a flag but I would suggest recruiting guns in their prime is absolutely a requirement for sustained success that includes regular finals and multiple flags.

...

The current strategy looks to be relying on developing from the draft / recruiting young players from state leagues and bringing in experienced players to fill specific needs. Bringing in the odd star hasn't worked e g Barry Hall. The Club was playing finals before he came and continued to play finals during his stay, at the same level. Whilst Tom Boyd was hardly a star, we treated him as one, overpaid massively, Gordon blinked. He played a blinder of a month but apart from that has had no impact on the Club's position. Better to develop a team than rely on a saviour.

 

[BRWB]

The current strategy looks to be relying on developing from the draft / recruiting young players from state leagues and bringing in experienced players to fill specific needs. Bringing in the odd star hasn't worked e g Barry Hall. The Club was playing finals before he came and continued to play finals during his stay, at the same level. Whilst Tom Boyd was hardly a star, we treated him as one, overpaid massively, Gordon blinked. He played a blinder of a month but apart from that has had no impact on the Club's position. Better to develop a team than rely on a saviour.

You have to be extremely lucky to only draft guns in positions of need and have them all develop together at the same time while picking up trade cheapies. Its why pretty much no one has delivered sustained success doing this.

IMO we absolutely have to have a massive crack at the end of this season. A quality (not necessarily gun) back and a sm fwd.

That should be achievable.

 

[Mofra]

You have to come to the stark realization that most of the players who have come to the Dogs are either seen
as not best 22 by their former clubs and therefore expendable or have some sort of homesick issues. Look at
what we coughed up for Boyd, Kelly would cost more than the current Captain and pick 6. Of all the spit outs
from the expansion clubs not many have improved as players and quite a few are barely hanging on to their
current list spots.

Boyd was a one off - our club was on it's knees and had to do something bold.
We had the currency of a captain (bad back still largely unknown to the football world) wanting out which is a huge trading chip, and more cap space than Caleb Daniel wearing Bob Katter's Akubra.

Right now we don't have a desperate need in the team, just pieces that would make us better which makes the trading puzzle a lot easier. We can concentrate on player retention and the draft with 'cheap' pick ups that improve us over time (I'm a big Crozier fan, Doc i a Roarke upgrdae, Lloyd is fantastic as a high forward which isn't easy to play at the highest level). Later picks/ rookie picks can be used to try and find a gem that fills a need (e.g. Sweet as a developing ruck to give us some depth there).

Our weakest area (forwardline) suddenly looks good, albeit the key pillars are young.
As long as English is fit we're set in the ruck for a decade, with either Schache or even Boyd from next year able to chop out as the R2. Trengove gives us 2-3 years of legitimate competitive injury/rest cover for Timmy.
Our defence is solid although another quality KPD would help - I really really like Cordy, Lewie Young shows promise but I'm not sure he'll ever be a good body on body player so we need one more and as much as I like Fletch, he's depth. If we get desperate, Naughton can go back too.

Our issue over legspeed in the midfield may well be solved by a combination of Bailey Smith in the centre and Richards on the wing. One more genuine speedster would be nice, Ghosty shows promise forward or back but still has work to do. Rhylee isn't slow either but he'll play inside and with Wally Libba nd Dunks in the side he'll have to bide his time or develop his forward craft first.

We're still the youngest side most weeks so time will actually solve more issues for us than most clubs.

 

[Mofra]

We have the worst medico’s in the league. Unless we were offering him 400k a year more than anybody else, why would he even consider it?

I can't imagine him leaving after Collingwood stuck by him for so long.

Small forward is perhaps the one position in the comp where good ones can be found mid draft or later, and they can play early as they're less reliant on physical development.
We don't even know if we need one once Caverra gets a crack at it which might be a while as our line up is looking settled at the moment. Ghosty shows glimpses too.

 

[doggies ftw]

Just say Boyd comes back and finds form in the VFL over the coming weeks and Naughty/Schache keep playing good footy what do people want to do? Boyd in form is definitely best 22, his back up ruckwork will be massive for English. No doubt Naughty can slot back into HB and probably solve a lot of our problems but im reluctant to move him back. Best key forward prospect weve had on our list since Grant.

Can anyone see Boyd, Naughty and Schache working up forward? Noting that Schache can play very high and Boyd would spend at least 40% of the game in the ruck. And Naughys ground work/defensive pressure being borderline elite already for a key forward. Id like to see it tried but again if the forward line is still firing by the time Boyds ready itd be risky to mix it up.

 

[Yojimbo]

and more cap space than Caleb Daniel wearing Bob Katter's Akubra.

Nice, gave me a laugh. Or lol as the young people would say.

 

[BRWB]

Just say Boyd comes back and finds form in the VFL over the coming weeks and Naughty/Schache keep playing good footy what do people want to do? Boyd in form is definitely best 22, his back up ruckwork will be massive for English. No doubt Naughty can slot back into HB and probably solve a lot of our problems but im reluctant to move him back. Best key forward prospect weve had on our list since Grant.

Can anyone see Boyd, Naughty and Schache working up forward? Noting that Schache can play very high and Boyd would spend at least 40% of the game in the ruck. And Naughys ground work/defensive pressure being borderline elite already for a key forward. Id like to see it tried but again if the forward line is still firing by the time Boyds ready itd be risky to mix it up.

We are playing russian roulette a bit with our weakish backline currently. If Boyd can come back this yr and be as good as Naughton fwd that would be amazing as Nauhhton could go back.
However Boyds best games were rucking. And people would know my views on Boyd being an effective fwd. Havent seen it much and not sure we wiĺl unless he increases aggression, resilience, kicking, mobility and marking.

So IMO we have to list plan for a team not including Boyd. His fragility and limitations make him depth for mine. Injuries and player management should still see him play a bit if he is fit and has some form.

But who knows Boyd may come good which could be a nice problem to have.

Longer term would love to see us persist with Naughton fwd. Love his mobility, aggression and marking. A surprisingly good set shot as well.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Just say Boyd comes back and finds form in the VFL over the coming weeks and Naughty/Schache keep playing good footy what do people want to do? Boyd in form is definitely best 22, his back up ruckwork will be massive for English. No doubt Naughty can slot back into HB and probably solve a lot of our problems but im reluctant to move him back. Best key forward prospect weve had on our list since Grant.

Can anyone see Boyd, Naughty and Schache working up forward? Noting that Schache can play very high and Boyd would spend at least 40% of the game in the ruck. And Naughys ground work/defensive pressure being borderline elite already for a key forward. Id like to see it tried but again if the forward line is still firing by the time Boyds ready itd be risky to mix it up.

Depends what you mean by finds form. I think he would need to be close to his very best which is 2016 finals form to break in or justify swinging Naughton back to defence.

 

[AFDogs]

So we need to go hard at a big fish in the off-season.

Not a gun mid, but a player type like a Jamie Elliot, Zac Williams, Darcy Moore, Jordan De Goey, Jade Gresham or Jack Billings.

 

[Virgin Dog]

We have also picked up the odd aging star like Winmar, Hall and Aker. But as you say often players were rejected by their old clubs.

We arent a destination club and talk of putting aside cap for Kelly or that Kelly was our mysterious big fish was always fanciful.

As 16 showed recruiting stars in their prime is not a pre requisite for a flag but I would suggest recruiting guns in their prime is absolutely a requirement for sustained success that includes regular finals and multiple flags.

Interesting if we can break the mold.

​

​

With the development and emergence of Schache, Naughton and English (with Boyd and Trengove as.backups and a gun mid grp) I would suggest that if we could recruit a gun key back in his prime and a gun sm fwd, we could just about win the flag as early as next yr.​

​

​

Next yr we should 100% roll.the dice to pick up a good key back and sm fwd via draft pick trading and FA.​

​

The time is now and it will be interesting to see if the club can break from its past and attract a gun in their prime. I suspect we wont but that we may be able.to attact a good player in his prime or an aging champ.​

​

A good test for Power.​

That's why myself and Mofra had been suggesting Alex Sexton - he was so close to having a big breakout year (which has now come a year early and he's re-signed) but we could have potentially got him for something as cheap as an early 2nd. That's your small forward, then someone like Astbury or Tomlinson as the Key Defender. I'd even argue you could get all that done while staying in the first round.

At this rate, it doesn't look like there's going to be much left in terms of free agency, so if we want to recruit a player in their prime it will cost us big

 

[Virgin Dog]

We are playing russian roulette a bit with our weakish backline currently. If Boyd can come back this yr and be as good as Naughton fwd that would be amazing as Nauhhton could go back.
However Boyds best games were rucking. And people would know my views on Boyd being an effective fwd. Havent seen it much and not sure we wiĺl unless he increases aggression, resilience, kicking, mobility and marking.

So IMO we have to list plan for a team not including Boyd. His fragility and limitations make him depth for mine. Injuries and player management should still see him play a bit if he is fit and has some form.

But who knows Boyd may come good which could be a nice problem to have.

Longer term would love to see us persist with Naughton fwd. Love his mobility, aggression and marking. A surprisingly good set shot as well.

I actually think that our 22 could look quite healthy with Boyd in there.

• Cordy - KPD
• Schache - KPF
• English - 1st Ruck, rest forward on occasion (70-30 ruck)
• Boyd - 2nd Ruck, spend more time forward (30-70 ruck)
• Naughton - Swing between KPD and KPF as required
• Lewis Young - in and out of side whenever we require an extra KPD

We've shown we can perform with a small defence, but Cordy and Naughton have plenty of mobility so I'm convinced they don't just have to be taking the big KPFs all the time - Boyd could actually fit into this side quite well if he's actually in good form. The only real liability in that side would be English/Boyd resting forward, as both need to improve on their marking ability if they are going to be a decent tall target

 

[Norm De Guerre]

It may not be as glamorous nor deliver the sugar hit of a big fish that fans desire, but I would argue that the steadier model that we used to deliver the 2016 premiership was correct then and the one that we should continue to follow now. Build the core of your list via the draft and then cannily trade in mature role fillers to cover the inevitable draft misses.

 

[Yojimbo]

It may not be a glamorous or deliver the sugar hit of a big fish that fans desire, but I would argue that the steadier model that we used to deliver the 2016 premiership was correct then and the one that we should continue to follow now. Build the core of your list via the draft and then cannily trade in mature role fillers to cover the inevitable draft misses.

Nailed it Aaron, now game face on and kick a bag on the weekend.

 

[Mofra]

The only real liability in that side would be English/Boyd resting forward, as both need to improve on their marking ability if they are going to be a decent tall target

English has a decent technique, but long skinny arms so needs strength that comes with time.
Boyd has serious flaws when marking the leading ball - he can mark the high ball which is what a ruck gets but forwards need to be able to mark the low ball on the lead too. Even in his best game of his career that single-handedly justified his contract, his first marking attempt was a leading ball that bounced off his chest.

 

[Virgin Dog]

English has a decent technique, but long skinny arms so needs strength that comes with time.
Boyd has serious flaws when marking the leading ball - he can mark the high ball which is what a ruck gets but forwards need to be able to mark the low ball on the lead too. Even in his best game of his career that single-handedly justified his contract, his first marking attempt was a leading ball that bounced off his chest.

I've noticed this year that Billy Gowers has become elite in this category. His leads have been close to perfect - managing to mark the ball low to ground while running at full speed, or marking it on a slide, is what Boyd needs to add to his arsenal. Bit hard when you're 200cm, but even if he came close to Gowers' level we'd have a serious KPF on our hands.

English, as you said, will get stronger with time. The Hawks game frustrated me as he dropped so many marks he should be taking, but I guess with most of his weight being in his lower body, he must have about the strength of Caleb Daniel up top

 

[TedDougChris]

It may not be a glamorous or deliver the sugar hit of a big fish that fans desire, but I would argue that the steadier model that we used to deliver the 2016 premiership was correct then and the one that we should continue to follow now. Build the core of your list via the draft and then cannily trade in mature role fillers to cover the inevitable draft misses.

How many years in a row have the Bombers ‘won’ trade week ???

 

[Contador]

"trust me guys, Kelly and Bont are gay lovers and want to play together"

This has always been our only hope, and the main advantage we had over North.

 

[dogwatch]

We have the worst medico’s in the league. Unless we were offering him 400k a year more than anybody else, why would he even consider it?

I can't agree with your premise. It might be true but we have no clear evidence, just a bunch of frustrated footy fans on BF joining random dots when we get a lot of injuries.

The players themselves seem very happy with the medicos (they have often made statements to that effect) and they would know what's going on around the clubs as many of them have played elsewhere and/or are mates with players who do.

Your statement also implies they are clearly (i.e. by a good margin) the worst in the league, because if it was a matter of 1-2% it would hardly be noticeable. So can you convince me with some hard evidence?

 

[Virgin Dog]

How many years in a row have the Bombers ‘won’ trade week ???

Too much focus on picking up other club's work, too little on developing their own players. So many sub-par players on their team, with 8-10 players I'd consider truly valuable. Most sides have at least 15 players that other clubs would love to get their hands on.

I'm glad we don't rely on trade week to sustain our club

 

[BRWB]

Too much focus on picking up other club's work, too little on developing their own players. So many sub-par players on their team, with 8-10 players I'd consider truly valuable. Most sides have at least 15 players that other clubs would love to get their hands on.

I'm glad we don't rely on trade week to sustain our club

And where are we? Two finals series post 2010. A good start this yr but early days. For sustained success we absolutely need to use FA and trade for good players for gaps to get sustained success IMO.

We have an elite mid group and some potential gun KPs and ruck.

This off season is the time to roll the dice IMO. Would happily trade out of this and next yrs draft for the right player. Obviously would prefer a FA.