Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[cecil]

English is 27 in two months. Should we wait until he is 32 to fairly assess his spot in the team?

Ofcourse not. But if youre comparing him to someone who has legitimate claims as the greatest ruck ever in the context of a long term contract signing you need to consider his age and how we may develop.

FWIW, I think English is a good (not great player) and talk of cashing him in for guys currently playing VFL is madness.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Ofcourse not. But if youre comparing him to someone who has legitimate claims as the greatest ruck ever in the context of a long term contract signing you need to consider his age and how we may develop.

FWIW, I think English is a good (not great player) and talk of cashing him in for guys currently playing VFL is madness.

True, just think people have given English waaayyyy too much time to prove himself and improve his weak efforts, it’s been like this for years now, some things never change.

We seem to do that with a lot of players, give them a bajillion chances while other serious clubs would’ve moved them on. Richmond delists blokes like Aarts while we keep McNeil, VDM on for an eternity and now Bramble may be the next addition. It’s deflating.

 

[Bulldog in Kiev]

He has no aggression, if he had the mongrel of Draper he would be an excellent player.
He is too nice but I’d say too many dogs don’t play with a hard edge, not just Tim.

 

[cecil]

True, just think people have given English waaayyyy too much time to prove himself and improve his weak efforts, it’s been like this for years now, some things never change.

We seem to do that with a lot of players, give them a bajillion chances while other serious clubs would’ve moved them on. Richmond delists blokes like Aarts while we keep McNeil, VDM on for an eternity and now Bramble may be the next addition. It’s deflating.

I agree we need to turn the list over more but not sure you can lump an AA ruck in with McNiel and Vandermeer...

 

[dogwatch]

If you're comparing English to Gawn then you should probably be looking at 26yo Gawn. He was very good but hadn't gone on his 5 year AA run yet. English's ruck work won't ever be as good, but most rucks craft develops significantly in their late 20s

That's a fair point but when Gawn was Tim's age (end of 2018 season) he was already averaging 34 HOs a game. He had 43 Brownlow votes from 99 games and was averaging over 13 disposals.

I'm one of those who has more focus on a ruckman helping us dominate stoppages so while I appreciate Timmy is often good around the ground (it's certainly valuable) I don't think he gives us any great advantage at CBs and stoppages and it's hard to see that changing.

I'm not rushing him out the door and I'm OK for him to stay long term, but if somebody made a great offer involving excellent draft assets I'd say it's well worth considering. I doubt that will happen though.

 

[CarnTheScray]

I agree we need to turn the list over more but not sure you can lump an AA ruck in with McNiel and Vandermeer...

I didn’t. I said we seem to give too many players that aren’t up to it a chance. And listed the usual suspects that have been discussed ad nauseam.

If the AA appearance in an injury plagued year is the only statistic/fact that can be used to defend English’s performances then that says enough. We don’t use Bailey Dales AA appearance to defend his flakey games where he turns into an under 10s player when the opposition man’s up on him, do we.

 

[TiAn_]

$800k for 5 for Tim is acceptable. I could see similar level rucks like Darcy Cameron

14

Darcy Cameron

Age

28

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.3

1star

HB

2.7

2star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

3.5

5star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.3

2star

HB

2.7

3star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

or Tom De Koning

12

Tom De Koning

Age

24

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

also getting that type of money.

I’d still be happy to replace him with a ruckman that maybe averages 3-4 less disposals but is more reliable week to week and more consistent in the ruck/onball contest.

 

[Randomthoughts]

He has no aggression, if he had the mongrel of Draper he would be an excellent player.
He is too nice but I’d say too many dogs don’t play with a hard edge, not just Tim.

agree however I just wonder how much of Tim’s concussion history had affected his game . He may be instructed to protect himself and play a certain way in addition to being a natural gentle giant .

 

[TiAn_]

That's a fair point but when Gawn was Tim's age (end of 2018 season) he was already averaging 34 HOs a game. He had 43 Brownlow votes from 99 games and was averaging over 13 disposals.

I'm one of those who has more focus on a ruckman helping us dominate stoppages so while I appreciate Timmy is often good around the ground (it's certainly valuable) I don't think he gives us any great advantage at CBs and stoppages and it's hard to see that changing.

I'm not rushing him out the door and I'm OK for him to stay long term, but if somebody made a great offer involving excellent draft assets I'd say it's well worth considering. I doubt that will happen though.

The thing with Tim is exactly how valuable are those “around the ground” things he does? This year his contested:uncontested possession ratio is 1:2. That’s a massive outlier for ruckmen. It’s almost an exact reverse of Brodie Grundy, for example. A part of it is how we play, as I think we lead the league in UPs.

His 6 CPs per game this year are 3-4 lower than many of the top rucks and 2-3 off his previous two years. And a return to where he was at 2021 and prior. His clearances average is comparatively poor against many of his peers too, and has also dropped from last year. His contested work in most senses (also less than 1 CM per game this year) is average at best for his position.

This year’s version of Tim is essentially a tall outside link player, that gets beaten in the ruck every week. And many of his contemporaries manage similar disposal numbers without being so contest-averse, despite not playing in teams that share the footy around as much as we do. I can see why suitors would have been turned off this year.

 

[LondonBulldog]

$800k for 5 for Tim is acceptable. I could see similar level rucks like Darcy Cameron

14

Darcy Cameron

Age

28

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.3

1star

HB

2.7

2star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

3.5

5star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.3

2star

HB

2.7

3star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

or Tom De Koning

12

Tom De Koning

Age

24

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

also getting that type of money.

I’d still be happy to replace him with a ruckman that maybe averages 3-4 less disposals but is more reliable week to week and more consistent in the ruck/onball contest.

That would be a bad call with his concussion issues. Two or three would be all the club should offer. It he goes so be it.


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[VitalDread]

Small rumblings of JJ frustrated with his injury run and might pull the pin at the end of the year

Though this is more likely once he's back playing footy he will find the love again

 

[VitalDread]

Some higher dogs people were super impressed with Berry ability to shut down Bont

I don't see us having the full cash for him but guessing they might target a similar style player

 

[adogsfan5]

Small rumblings of JJ frustrated with his injury run and might pull the pin at the end of the year

Though this is more likely once he's back playing footy he will find the love again

Breaks down way too much. Not shocked.

 

[adogsfan5]

Some higher dogs people were super impressed with Berry ability to shut down Bont

I don't see us having the full cash for him but guessing they might target a similar style player

They should be equally frustrated why we couldn’t somewhat nullify Neale.

 

[iambrilliant]

Some higher dogs people were super impressed with Berry ability to shut down Bont

I don't see us having the full cash for him but guessing they might target a similar style player

What for ? Bevo doesn’t use taggers

Would say harmes is similar also

 

[Testekill]

Small rumblings of JJ frustrated with his injury run and might pull the pin at the end of the year

Though this is more likely once he's back playing footy he will find the love again

Sadly soft tissue injuries don't get better as you get older. Love JJ but wouldn't blame him pulling the pin if he can't get out there.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Some higher dogs people were super impressed with Berry ability to shut down Bont

I don't see us having the full cash for him but guessing they might target a similar style player

They must not watch football enough then. Could’ve told you 5 years in advance that they’d use Berry to nullify whoever our best player the previous week was (usually Bont).

 

[Dogs5416]

So if Smith goes to Hawks pick 7 looks like the pick we would target. Cats first pick is 16 and they would need to throw in a 2025 1st as well. Pies first pick is 27. Really hope he doesn’t nominate them. I think he is gone so hoping for Hawks.

If Lobb goes it would be between Saints, Dees and Pies. With our strong negotiating position (contracted, not on huge coin and a hard to fill position) we should get a second rounder. Pies have 27, saints have 32 and Dees have 38. Dees also have 3 picks in the 40’s.

Buss is the only other player which could ask for a trade in my opinion but I am hoping he stays.

Don’t think Macrae or Daniel will get us much due to both form and contract so think they both stay.

Draft is meant to have good depth. Might be a good chance to get some players with pace and start resetting the list.

What return do you think is realistic for losing Lobb and Smith?


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[adogsfan5]

So if Smith goes to Hawks pick 7 looks like the pick we would target. Cats first pick is 16 and they would need to throw in a 2025 1st as well. Pies first pick is 27. Really hope he doesn’t nominate them. I think he is gone so hoping for Hawks.

If Lobb goes it would be between Saints, Dees and Pies. With our strong negotiating position (contracted, not on huge coin and a hard to fill position) we should get a second rounder. Pies have 27, saints have 32 and Dees have 38. Dees also have 3 picks in the 40’s.

Buss is the only other player which could ask for a trade in my opinion but I am hoping he stays.

Don’t think Macrae or Daniel will get us much due to both form and contract so think they both stay.

Draft is meant to have good depth. Might be a good chance to get some players with pace and start resetting the list.

What return do you think is realistic for losing Lobb and Smith?


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My mail as of last week still has cats leading for Smith. Pick 16 isn’t good enough though. They’d have to get to work to get a higher pick.

Lobb is no good and looks mentally checked out - we’d be lucky to get a third I reckon. I reckon we’ll hold him to his contract unless he has a genuine temper tantrum which I can see occuring. His TikTok videos did it for me.

I think this year is a small reset year for us.

 

[bresker]

That would be a bad call with his concussion issues. Two or three would be all the club should offer. It he goes so be it.


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I've thought this too, and he's probably one or two more concussions from retirement. Not that it gives me any pleasure to type this, but that should be factored in when resigning him.

The other facet you want with a ruck is a big pack mark in defence or attack. It seems to me that Tim has regressed in this area. I've noticed that the problem of 'all flying for the same ball' seems to get worse when he's forward. He gets in the way and gets his hands to it but rarely marks.

English is the (lofty) microcosm of the team macrocosm - infuriatingly inconsistent. He must be the flakiest player in our first team. You never know what you're going to get.

I don't think he's amazing or terrible, he's a unique player and it depends on how much disappointment you're prepared to tolerate.

 

[Dogs5416]

Would 16 and a future cats first be enough?


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[The Inbetweener]

Would 16 and a future cats first be enough?


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They’d want something else back

 

[dogwatch]

Would 16 and a future cats first be enough?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yes, but the Cats wouldn't do that. They aren't used to paying full value for their trades.
At best they'd want our highest pick (a second) in return but even that seems unlikely.

If we did get their future first we might see if we can parlay it into a 2024 first with some other club.

That in turn might depend on whether the AFL pulls the trigger on the suggested change to force clubs to use their first round pick on FS bid matching. And how we assess our FS options in 2025. Supposedly all of the following are FS candidates next year but doubts have been raised as to which year some of these actually are (eg Cooney)

Lukas Eagleton - (2025 Draft)​

Jaxon Cooney - (2025 Draft)​

Oliver Grant - (2025 Draft)​

Jarvis Murphy - (2025 Draft)​

Cohen Lake - (2025 Draft)​

Sonny Garlick - (2025 Draft)​

 

[weltschmerz]

Yes, but the Cats wouldn't do that. They aren't used to paying full value for their trades.
At best they'd want our highest pick (a second) in return but even that seems unlikely.

If we did get their future first we might see if we can parlay it into a 2024 first with some other club.

That in turn might depend on whether the AFL pulls the trigger on the suggested change to force clubs to use their first round pick on FS bid matching. And how we assess our FS options in 2025. Supposedly all of the following are FS candidates next year but doubts have been raised as to which year some of these actually are (eg Cooney)

Lukas Eagleton - (2025 Draft)​

Jaxon Cooney - (2025 Draft)​

Oliver Grant - (2025 Draft)​

Jarvis Murphy - (2025 Draft)​

Cohen Lake - (2025 Draft)​

Sonny Garlick - (2025 Draft)​

Google sleuthing - Cooney is 2026, Eagleton, Grant, and Murphy seem likely to be 2025. Sonny Garlick is 16 but not sure if he turned 16 this year or last.

Lake's other two kids are named Mylee and Bailee.

 

[Hobdog]

Yes, but the Cats wouldn't do that. They aren't used to paying full value for their trades.
At best they'd want our highest pick (a second) in return but even that seems unlikely.

If we did get their future first we might see if we can parlay it into a 2024 first with some other club.

That in turn might depend on whether the AFL pulls the trigger on the suggested change to force clubs to use their first round pick on FS bid matching. And how we assess our FS options in 2025. Supposedly all of the following are FS candidates next year but doubts have been raised as to which year some of these actually are (eg Cooney)

Lukas Eagleton - (2025 Draft)​

Jaxon Cooney - (2025 Draft)​

Oliver Grant - (2025 Draft)​

Jarvis Murphy - (2025 Draft)​

Cohen Lake - (2025 Draft)​

Sonny Garlick - (2025 Draft)​

Is Bob’s son in the FS Academy? I thought he didn’t even play footy?


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