Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Golden_6]

Whilst I am very much not sold on English as a ruck, the reality is he is only now starting to enter a rucks prime, late 20's early 30's. It is why few clubs draft their rucks, they trade them in later when they are fully matured 7 to 8 years in the system

I don't think this is really relevant to English. He's not magically going to become a tougher & more fierce competitor. We've backed him in and this is ruckman we've decided to roll with for the next few years.

He is what he is at this point. The 2023 English is about as good as it will be get for him IMO (given he was much worse in 2024).

 

[GetDimmaBack]

This wouldn’t surprise me based on what I have heard about his behaviour.

If it's true that no other clubs are interested, is it because everyone knows he's had a deal in place with Geelong for a while, or is it that he's seen as high maintenance, or are clubs a bit wary of offering a long contract to a bloke coming off an ACL?

Plenty of intrigue, as always with Baz.

 

[lachy]

Suns are the most likely option, given they may have to pay up for Lombard with Pick 13. But they have more than enough points to cover a likely bid within that range anyway, so they may not even need to trade back. Given Lombard is only borderline top 10 at this point in time. Brisbane will likely be the best option, given the need to land Ashcroft.

But given both picks are 13 and 14, both will end up around 15-17 anyway. So they won't be THAT pick we are hoping for. But still marginally better than what Geelong could offer outright. Essendon also need points for Kako likely, but they have nothing between Pick 8 and 28 to swap with points wise. Kako won't go top 10, so they will like use pick 8 and take a points hit for Kako.

But as I said. There isn't really much options to trade up with this year. Live Draft day trading might be the best bet.

You raise great points in this and your earlier post.

It is staggering how poor the journalistic analysis is with trading, as though it is binary. And you can see with some posts on here that with the lack of nuance and intelligence sprouted by the football media, people get up in arms about hypotheticals.

If Geelong, who in general are a good trading club want Smith and the price is a top 10 draft picks, they will package up their picks and possibly players to get a top 10 pick from one of the clubs with very highly rated F&S, Academy or NGA to get that top 10 pick. As you say it may be more difficult this season but trading next year picks may provide the leverage required too.

There are reasons some clubs get trades done and others don't (Essendon with Dodoro for example).

 

[lachy]

I don't think this is really relevant to English. He's not magically going to become a tougher & more fierce competitor. We've backed him in and this is ruckman we've decided to roll with for the next few years.

He is what he is at this point. The 2023 English is about as good as it will be get for him IMO (given he was much worse in 2024).

You may not think it is relevant to English and may be correct, but he is 27 so only just entering the prime age for a ruck.

Very few are like Max Gawn

 

[_Cerberus_]

I had a look at Vandermeers stats, and I am still baffled at how he was able to play every game this season. Unless his pressure stats were off the charts.

He kicked goals in only 9 of his 24 games. All single figures but one. That is 15 games goaless as a forward.

He got over 12 possessions in a game only 5 times from his 24 games.

13 of his 24 games resulted in 1 or 0 tackles. Six games of 2. Five games or 3 or more.

Goals Assists. 0 eleven times, 1 ten times. So even though he kicks it inside 50 3-5 times a game, he almost never sets up a goal.

So we have a small forward, that doesn't kick goals, doesn't stick many tackles, and doesn't create goals.

I understand the concept of role players, every Premiership team has them. But even role players need to be able to impact now and then, more than he does. And I understand the fact the cupboard is bare, that I doubt the likes of Clarke and Arty would have provided much better. But we cannot continue to gift a whole season to non impact players. He probably had 3 or 4 very good games all season. Might be a harsh call.

If Weightman has a down game, we need someone to step up and impact. Kind of like our three talls, you never know which one will be the best that day, but you know at least one of them will be THAT guy on any given game day. The same cannot be said for our smalls. West 1 or 0 goals in 15 or his 21 games. No one hits the scoreboard if Weightman has a quiet game or is asked to play a selfless role up field. Weightman 1 or 0 goals in half of his games. But at least kicks 2 or more in the other half of his games, a way better ratio than the other two. At least West finds more ball, generates more assists and tackles than Vandermeer. But it shows the lack of impact from our smalls, compared to some teams.

 

[DueWest]

I had a look at Vandermeers stats, and I am still baffled at how he was able to play every game this season. Unless his pressure stats were off the charts.

He kicked goals in only 9 of his 24 games. All single figures but one. That is 15 games goaless as a forward.

He got over 12 possessions in a game only 5 times from his 24 games.

13 of his 24 games resulted in 1 or 0 tackles. Six games of 2. Five games or 3 or more.

Goals Assists. 0 eleven times, 1 ten times. So even though he kicks it inside 50 3-5 times a game, he almost never sets up a goal.

So we have a small forward, that doesn't kick goals, doesn't stick many tackles, and doesn't create goals.

I understand the concept of role players, every Premiership team has them. But even role players need to be able to impact now and then, more than he does. And I understand the fact the cupboard is bare, that I doubt the likes of Clarke and Arty would have provided much better. But we cannot continue to gift a whole season to non impact players. He probably had 3 or 4 very good games all season. Might be a harsh call.

If Weightman has a down game, we need someone to step up and impact. Kind of like our three talls, you never know which one will be the best that day, but you know at least one of them will be THAT guy on any given game day. The same cannot be said for our smalls. West 1 or 0 goals in 15 or his 21 games. No one hits the scoreboard if Weightman has a quiet game or is asked to play a selfless role up field. Weightman 1 or 0 goals in half of his games. But at least kicks 2 or more in the other half of his games, a way better ratio than the other two. At least West finds more ball, generates more assists and tackles than Vandermeer. But it shows the lack of impact from our smalls, compared to some teams.

But VDM and McNeil were playing a role on Sisily that worked so well !

Small forwards are One of our biggest issues with the list but Bevo’s initial thoughts at his presser is that we need “more midfield depth and utilities”, ie more Vandeermeers McNeil’s Anthony Scott’s who run a lot but really don’t do too much offensively or defensively.

Meanwhile as for midfield “depth” ie ,back ups and ones that can play a role when others are injured, Macrae struggled to be a starter all season. Sure he looks a little slow but he is being played out of his best position.

 

[Libbaaaa]

The VDM and McNeil apply so much pressure is such a myth, when we rolled the Blues/Cats/Swans it had nothing to do with the repeated sprints or pressure they applied.

 

[BulldogMuscle]

Whilst I am very much not sold on English as a ruck, the reality is he is only now starting to enter a rucks prime, late 20's early 30's. It is why few clubs draft their rucks, they trade them in later when they are fully matured 7 to 8 years in the system

Man, I've been hearing this forever tho.
''another pre-season''
''he'll be in his prime soon''

and then some club will debut a ruckman against him and he'll get slaughtered.

Why can't we ever do the ruck slaughtering? Is it because English is scared of his own shadow?

 

[lachy]

Man, I've been hearing this forever tho.
''another pre-season''
''he'll be in his prime soon''

and then some club will debut a ruckman against him and he'll get slaughtered.

Why can't we ever do the ruck slaughtering? Is it because English is scared of his own shadow?

Could be. Really up to him, but with Darcy coming through can see him already dropping back to 70% ruck

 

[_Cerberus_]

But VDM and McNeil were playing a role on Sisily that worked so well !

Small forwards are One of our biggest issues with the list but Bevo’s initial thoughts at his presser is that we need “more midfield depth and utilities”, ie more Vandeermeers McNeil’s Anthony Scott’s who run a lot but really don’t do too much offensively or defensively.

Meanwhile as for midfield “depth” ie ,back ups and ones that can play a role when others are injured, Macrae struggled to be a starter all season. Sure he looks a little slow but he is being played out of his best position.

McNeils tackling stats are pretty impressive though. Miles better than Vanders and West, and on par with Weightman. So I will give him credit there. His disposal numbers are very low.

But you're right, small forward has been a heel for too long. We have had too many misses trying to address the position. Mind you it is a league wide thing, there isn't that many great small forwards out there. But I would like us to start nailing positions like this in the draft etc.

I do understand the midfield comments. Our defence is still so and so at times, it was the midfield winding back the clock and becoming a good unit at defending the ground that was the biggest part in our improving out . I am old school in the belief that games are won and lost in the middle. Good midfields can make average FWDS and DEFs better. Needs to be a priority before the cliff drop comes. But I would say neglect other postions at our own peril.

 

[Dogs 13]

Hey, lots of Doggies live in the Bellarine Peninsula.

You’ll all just have to take one for the team.
Sort of a selfless VDM role.

 

[Dogs Rule]

ppl here really harsh on Smith. Every player's dream to win premiership. Who is closer to the trophy, who's in better position to win it in next 3 years, Dogs or Cats? have your say
and I am not sold on him chasing big money, chasing longer contract, or get no spot in our mid. He's only 24 yo.no problem to earn money through sponsorships etc.., and with our aging mid, he'll slot in straightaway as onballer once he's healthy.
same like Dunks, they are young, ambitious and competitive and aware of their value/quality, they are chasing dream while they still can.. and sadly they dont see it currently at dogs

What absolute garbage. Pure drivel from start to finish.

Grant didn't leave? Johnson didn't, West didn't, Rohan Smith and neither did hundreds of players from our past. But what was the difference? They weren't raging self obsessed narcissists like Smith. They actually had something about them. Some moral fibre and substance.

There are no guarantees if he goes to Geelong. They can sell him the dream but that's all it is, a dream.

 

[Unorth]

I had a look at Vandermeers stats, and I am still baffled at how he was able to play every game this season. Unless his pressure stats were off the charts.

He kicked goals in only 9 of his 24 games. All single figures but one. That is 15 games goaless as a forward.

He got over 12 possessions in a game only 5 times from his 24 games.

13 of his 24 games resulted in 1 or 0 tackles. Six games of 2. Five games or 3 or more.

Goals Assists. 0 eleven times, 1 ten times. So even though he kicks it inside 50 3-5 times a game, he almost never sets up a goal.

So we have a small forward, that doesn't kick goals, doesn't stick many tackles, and doesn't create goals.

I understand the concept of role players, every Premiership team has them. But even role players need to be able to impact now and then, more than he does. And I understand the fact the cupboard is bare, that I doubt the likes of Clarke and Arty would have provided much better. But we cannot continue to gift a whole season to non impact players. He probably had 3 or 4 very good games all season. Might be a harsh call.

If Weightman has a down game, we need someone to step up and impact. Kind of like our three talls, you never know which one will be the best that day, but you know at least one of them will be THAT guy on any given game day. The same cannot be said for our smalls. West 1 or 0 goals in 15 or his 21 games. No one hits the scoreboard if Weightman has a quiet game or is asked to play a selfless role up field. Weightman 1 or 0 goals in half of his games. But at least kicks 2 or more in the other half of his games, a way better ratio than the other two. At least West finds more ball, generates more assists and tackles than Vandermeer. But it shows the lack of impact from our smalls, compared to some teams.

VDM and McNeil are kind of a relic of the 2017 Richmond era. Pressure forwards are important but very quickly it evolved into players with pace AND skills so they can contribute both with and without the ball.

I’m not sure why we didn’t try Gallagher in this role, he actually has the ability to be aggressive going forward/peppering the goals. He was also really poor in the midfield most of the season.

West should have played, that was Bevo getting too cute.

AJ has just showed a little bit late in the season, he’s a great pressure player with more talent than VDM and McNeil but needs to work on finding the ball consistently. I wouldn’t rely on it but if he has a big preseason he will have a place in the side.

Clarke was another hopeful for the role that hasn’t panned out and may or may not be on the list next season.

Need players that can pressure but also complete connections with our tall forwards - VDM is unskilled and McNeil is extremely fumbly. Both of them don’t worry the scoreboard or opposition coaches at all. Not to heap too much blame on them for the final, we were failed by much better players. But across the season it was clear.

Would really like us to address it this trade period. We have struggled with it for a while now, going back to Cavarra, post Dickson/Picken/Clay

 

[W W Biscuit]

VDM and McNeil are kind of a relic of the 2017 Richmond era. Pressure forwards are important but very quickly it evolved into players with pace AND skills so they can contribute both with and without the ball.

I’m not sure why we didn’t try Gallagher in this role, he actually has the ability to be aggressive going forward/peppering the goals. He was also really poor in the midfield most of the season.

West should have played, that was Bevo getting too cute.

AJ has just showed a little bit late in the season, he’s a great pressure player with more talent than VDM and McNeil but needs to work on finding the ball consistently. I wouldn’t rely on it but if he has a big preseason he will have a place in the side.

Clarke was another hopeful for the role that hasn’t panned out and may or may not be on the list next season.

Need players that can pressure but also complete connections with our tall forwards - VDM is unskilled and McNeil is extremely fumbly. Both of them don’t worry the scoreboard or opposition coaches at all. Not to heap too much blame on them for the final, we were failed by much better players. But across the season it was clear.

Would really like us to address it this trade period. We have struggled with it for a while now, going back to Cavarra, post Dickson/Picken/Clay

I see the type of player that Artie can become. He has a higher ceiling than VDM and McNeil IMO. Back him in and I think he can play a solid role for us going forward. Plus, he is universally loved - his upbeat, positive vibe is a real tonic.

 

[Mofra]

McNeils tackling stats are pretty impressive though. Miles better than Vanders and West, and on par with Weightman. So I will give him credit there. His disposal numbers are very low.

But you're right, small forward has been a heel for too long. We have had too many misses trying to address the position. Mind you it is a league wide thing, there isn't that many great small forwards out there. But I would like us to start nailing positions like this in the draft etc.

I do understand the midfield comments. Our defence is still so and so at times, it was the midfield winding back the clock and becoming a good unit at defending the ground that was the biggest part in our improving out . I am old school in the belief that games are won and lost in the middle. Good midfields can make average FWDS and DEFs better. Needs to be a priority before the cliff drop comes. But I would say neglect other postions at our own peril.

I'm baffled we aren't chasing Jacob Konstanty hard. One of the last higher draft picks from 2022 who hasn't signed, started slowly but really built solid VFL form is a tackling/pressure machine.

Has two years in the system so is ready to play. Seems like a fairly good candidate to strengthen our list and we can offer more senior opportunity than the Swans can. Victorian too so that helps.

 

[Dogs Rule]

Depending on how Port go this week, I hope we're at least in the ear of Butters. Things could implode quickly over there.

Maybe it's a pipe dream, but never would've imagined Tom Boyd at one stage or Treloar or even Akermanis going back that far.

 

[Dogs Rule]

I'm baffled we aren't chasing Jacob Konstanty hard. One of the last higher draft picks from 2022 who hasn't signed, started slowly but really built solid VFL form is a tackling/pressure machine.

Has two years in the system so is ready to play. Seems like a fairly good candidate to strengthen our list and we can offer more senior opportunity than the Swans can. Victorian too so that helps.

Konstanty made a seamless transition from the midfield in 2022 that saw him flourish as a small forward. A similar player to that of star forward Tom Papley, Konstanty finished the NAB League season ranked second for tackles (81), while impressing with his relentless work-rate and tackle pressure inside 50.

Yes! Exactly what we need.

 

[Unorth]

I see the type of player that Artie can become. He has a higher ceiling than VDM and McNeil IMO. Back him in and I think he can play a solid role for us going forward. Plus, he is universally loved - his upbeat, positive vibe is a real tonic.

Agreed and I think he has just shown enough lately to indicate he may make it yet.

He’s a pressure machine (although obviously needs to get a lot stronger), quick, great agility, good in the air, skilled…just needs to actually find the ball which has been his biggest challenge.

I hope he realises he has little competition for a spot (as things stand) if he puts in the work this preseason.

 

[Bulldogs85]

 

[Libbaaaa]

The worst part of the Smith request is the posturing that comes from Geelong and their fans. They act as if Smith has just declared out of the blue that he wants to play for Geelong and this is the first they have heard of it. “We’ll accomodate him if we can strike a deal, has to work for both parties etc…”

Reeks of Dodoro/Dunkley, although that will be hard to top. Get into the heard of a sure with 2 years left on his deal to go public with a request and then refuse to pay up.

 

[VitalDread]

A few clubs are offering Buku a larger $ and longer years than us ATM

 

[Libbaaaa]

Gary forfeited his right to any sympathy when he was a dirty dog with a mates wife.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Konstanty made a seamless transition from the midfield in 2022 that saw him flourish as a small forward. A similar player to that of star forward Tom Papley, Konstanty finished the NAB League season ranked second for tackles (81), while impressing with his relentless work-rate and tackle pressure inside 50.

Yes! Exactly what we need.

Didn’t he put Mills on the shelf tackling him at a pub? At least he can stick a tackle.

 

[Unorth]

A few clubs are offering Buku a larger $ and longer years than us ATM

For us he’s a depth swing man that probably spends half the season in the vfl and I’m sure our contract offer reflects that.

For someone else weaker in the talls department he would be a nice get and worth a more generous contract.

It’s a hard sell. But he backed himself in by accepting our one year deal, played most of the season and possibly found himself a bit of a market.

 

[Golden_6]

The early days media surrounding Smith's trade value is absolutely sickening.